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I understand this is designed to use the D&D tabletop game rules but I think it does not make for a good video game at all.

- Spell system: it's really the worst. Having to take a long rest to regenerate spells is meaningless and tedious. Nothing prevents me from doing it after each fight so what's the point? Either implement some kind of meaningful constraint on taking long rests or just remove this tedious mechanics altogether, it's just a waste of time at the moment.

- Combat system: from what I have seen, you can only perform 1 action and 1 secondary action per turn, no matter which action. It feels like a downgrade from Divinity where some actions were quicker than others and where we had the possibility of saving up action points. The combat system feels much shallower compared to Divinity.

One more thing, that is unrelated.

In Divnity I could move my characters independently and split my party. That was also possible in BG and BG2. It seems impossible in Baldur's Gate 3? Apparently I can only select one character at a time and my part auto follows. Am I missing something with the controls?

BG3 looks promising, but all these aspects give the impression that it is a downgrade from Divinity 2.

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Originally Posted by flammy
I understand this is designed to use the D&D tabletop game rules but I think it does not make for a good video game at all.

- Spell system: it's really the worst. Having to take a long rest to regenerate spells is meaningless and tedious. Nothing prevents me from doing it after each fight so what's the point? Either implement some kind of meaningful constraint on taking long rests or just remove this tedious mechanics altogether, it's just a waste of time at the moment.

Many others have also asked for meaningful constraints on long rests. Otherwise, as you've observed, it is just a tedious mechanic.

Originally Posted by flammy
- Combat system: from what I have seen, you can only perform 1 action and 1 secondary action per turn, no matter which action. It feels like a downgrade from Divinity where some actions were quicker than others and where we had the possibility of saving up action points. The combat system feels much shallower compared to Divinity.

The combat is shallow because Larian simplified it too much with high ground and backstab cheese. As long as you do these two things, you'll always win, whatever the class you play.

Originally Posted by flammy
One more thing, that is unrelated.

In Divnity I could move my characters independently and split my party. That was also possible in BG and BG2. It seems impossible in Baldur's Gate 3? Apparently I can only select one character at a time and my part auto follows. Am I missing something with the controls?

Yup, the party movement is almost universally loathed.

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Combat and party movement are the two biggest issues players have with the game.

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D&D and DOS are different games with different rulesets so maybe it's not the best comparison.

For me, the DOS mechanics are awful. I dislike how you can do so many actions before your enemies get to react to anything, it's more like a one sided hack fest rather than combat. I hate the inflated HP pools and armor system that are necessary because of this even more. I consider these weaknesses of a turn based system where you have to make sure someone doesn't get removed before they even get a turn, hence the nonsensical "armor" HP bloat/buffer that disables status effects too. I like my RPG combat to look and feel "real" instead of "videogamey".

You're right about the resting system. It's a meaningless chore at the moment that throws off balance as well, and it will be much worse at later levels if they don't fix it. The benefit of D&D resting system is that because "per day" abilities and spells are limited, they can be more powerful. High level spellcasters especially get to peak when they choose to unload their most powerful spells. It makes them much more fun to play, and it's a different dynamic from classes like Fighters or Warlocks who are more steady performers. If Larian lets level 10 Wizards peak and rest after every fight, they will have to start nerfing spells which would take the fun out of things. I also like the resource management aspect of a restricted resting system - the game rewards you for using your resources as sparingly as possible instead of just unloading everything in every fight on repeat. And it feels like you're on an adventure when you have to look for safe places to rest. There's other cool stuff they could do with that too. Wizards have spells that create forcefield protected resting domes in hostile areas, and they can even conjure a mansion in another dimension the party can rest in, much like the "House of Hope" in BG3.

I'm completely fine getting only one action per turn (5th and 11th level Fighters do get +1 attack action), but I really wish the AI wouldn't take so long during their turns. It's not cool to have to wait forever to do one action, and then wait again. The AI is so painfully slow and that's what stops the combat from flowing.

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Although I agree that the combat could definately use some tweaks, it is strange to say that the rest mechanic as a "meaningless" chore compared to DOS2, considering you could just click on a bedroll and completely rest and get everything recharged, at anytime, after every battle (where in BG3 you can do it twice before returning to camp). The height advantage should be tweaked, the backstab should be made for rogues only. But the system in this game is more like DA:O, where you return to camp to sleep and talk to companions.

But I am against limiting anyone's playing time by having artificial constraints on when you can rest. I mean if people want the old sleeping bag like DOS2 where you can recharge your health and abilities instantly with a sleeping bag click, that is cool.

But to me, even with the needed tweaks to balance it, I enjoy the battle in BG3 a little more than that of DOS2.

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Larian has masked the BG3 system to be similar to Divinity in a number of ways.

Backstab being guaranteed critical for finesse weapons in DOS2 = advantage in BG3
High ground providing extra range and extra dmg in DOS2 = advantage in BG3
Abundance of haste potion, haste spore flask = subsidize BG3 limitations by giving 2 attack action (equivalent to 4 AP standard in DOS2)
Wet + Electric stun in DOS2 = same in BG3
Wet + Cold freezing water for slip/knocked down in DOS2 = same in BG3 (just re-named to Prone)
Disengage/Shove/Hide being bonus actions = subsidize BG3 limitations by essentially granting more AP per turn (4 AP standard in DOS2)
Unlimited Long Rest without penalty = spells always available before every fight and no resource management for spellcasting (DOS2)
Any class casting any scroll = DOS2

The most effective way to navigate Larian combat is still the same. Use the shared initiative to burst down 1 or 2 enemies on the first round of combat and snowball the number differential from there, bolstered by free advantage and jump/disengage cheese.

If you consider that Disengage/Shove/Hide and other things on bonus action, which should be an action, is 2 AP (the equivalent of 1 action in DOS2) and the full action each turn is also 2 AP (the equivalent of 1 action per turn), then you have 4 AP a round.

The only thing that changed is you had to add Concentration mechanic and a higher chance of missing spells due to 5e AC and DC mechanics (that Larian has attempted to minimize by lowering AC, giving low-effort advantage in abundance, and offering 0 penalty for blowing your spells each fight).

It is clear what they wanted to do with the game.

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Originally Posted by gaymer
Larian has masked the BG3 system to be similar to Divinity in a number of ways.

Backstab being guaranteed critical for finesse weapons in DOS2 = advantage in BG3
High ground providing extra range and extra dmg in DOS2 = advantage in BG3
Abundance of haste potion, haste spore flask = subsidize BG3 limitations by giving 2 attack action (equivalent to 4 AP standard in DOS2)
Wet + Electric stun in DOS2 = same in BG3
Wet + Cold freezing water for slip/knocked down in DOS2 = same in BG3 (just re-named to Prone)
Disengage/Shove/Hide being bonus actions = subsidize BG3 limitations by essentially granting more AP per turn (4 AP standard in DOS2)
Unlimited Long Rest without penalty = spells always available before every fight and no resource management for spellcasting (DOS2)
Any class casting any scroll = DOS2

The most effective way to navigate Larian combat is still the same. Use the shared initiative to burst down 1 or 2 enemies on the first round of combat and snowball the number differential from there, bolstered by free advantage and jump/disengage cheese.

If you consider that Disengage/Shove/Hide and other things on bonus action, which should be an action, is 2 AP (the equivalent of 1 action in DOS2) and the full action each turn is also 2 AP (the equivalent of 1 action per turn), then you have 4 AP a round.

The only thing that changed is you had to add Concentration mechanic and a higher chance of missing spells due to 5e AC and DC mechanics (that Larian has attempted to minimize by lowering AC, giving low-effort advantage in abundance, and offering 0 penalty for blowing your spells each fight).

It is clear what they wanted to do with the game.
If only they could be open to other mechanics than the ones they use in their own IP. There is no *one thing* that only works in a video game. BG 1&2 are good games, Pathfinder: Kingmaker is a good game, Pillars of Eternity is a good game. And all of those games are better games for me mechanically than Divinity Original Sin 1 or 2.

Is it a fact in the game industry that a game with a AAA budget has to be "dumbed down" to find the lowest common denominator in players. High production values but shallow boring gameplay? That's what happened to the Dragon Age series.

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Originally Posted by flammy
One more thing, that is unrelated.

In Divnity I could move my characters independently and split my party. That was also possible in BG and BG2. It seems impossible in Baldur's Gate 3? Apparently I can only select one character at a time and my part auto follows. Am I missing something with the controls?

You can do this here, but its a little convoluted. If you want to split your whole party up, with your main selected, right click on 1 of your other toon's portraits in the lower left corner and select "ungroup". You need to do that for each toon you want to move around by themselves. Right clicking will also give you a "group" option which will let you regroup...select the first one you want, right click and group on a second and now that 2nd one will follow your first toon around.

Yes people have been complaining about how the movement/grouping is implemented basically since EA started.

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I like the action point system too in some games but I'm also in love with D&D's spellslots or features per day (24h). Your choices are more meaningfull but obsiously this is only interresting if the notion of "day" or "time" is a part of the gameplay.

A proper time management + day and night cycle could lead to something very interresting. 1 long rest / 24 hours during which players have to manage their ressources.
That's how D&D is designed but that's not how it works in BG3 so it's not engaging/challenging at all... If you can rest whenever you want without any consequences you completely loose the concept of management (and the tension, reflection and the notion of strategy that goes with it)

I don't really think it matter to compare it to DoS but at the moment, according to me BG3 failed to create something interresting and this is because "time" is a concept that does not really exist in the game.

I don't really care being able to only perform 1 action (and 1 bonus action) / round / character. This system is cool but I'd also like to play a bit more, watch a bit less and have more meaningfull turns.
Thats also why I think a party of 5 (or 6) would be better. 1 more companion mean 1 more action / turn. It's not necessary in the AP system but according to me it is in BG3.

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I have to be honest, I hate DOS:2's spell system. It's the definition of all flash no substance. You cast a spell that feels like it should hit like a dump truck, it looks epic. but it's just the animation when mechanically it's a peashooter so it becomes a big disappointment. It's like chocolate cake in most restaurants; they all look amazing until you take a bite. D&D is set up to be the opposite. You have a limited number of spell slots, they're supposed to hit hard and have a big impact. Which is why health bloat that we're seeing to make up for lowering AC is such a pain. And it leads to balance problems and ruins spells.

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Originally Posted by Ankou
I have to be honest, I hate DOS:2's spell system. It's the definition of all flash no substance. You cast a spell that feels like it should hit like a dump truck, it looks epic. but it's just the animation when mechanically it's a peashooter so it becomes a big disappointment. It's like chocolate cake in most restaurants; they all look amazing until you take a bite. D&D is set up to be the opposite. You have a limited number of spell slots, they're supposed to hit hard and have a big impact. Which is why health bloat that we're seeing to make up for lowering AC is such a pain. And it leads to balance problems and ruins spells.
This is my issue with DOS mechanics as well. Everything looks overpowered but is underpowered against the never ending HP pools. And after a while the big flashy effects are more repetitive than impressive.

In D&D, you launch a Fireball and it turns the tide of battle or even incinerates weaker enemies in one hit. That feels powerful and satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Ankou
I have to be honest, I hate DOS:2's spell system. It's the definition of all flash no substance. You cast a spell ... it looks epic. but it's just the animation when mechanically it's a peashooter so it becomes a big disappointment... D&D is set up to be the opposite. You have a limited number of spell slots, they're supposed to hit hard and have a big impact. Which is why health bloat that we're seeing to make up for lowering AC is such a pain. And it leads to balance problems and ruins spells.
Originally Posted by 1varangian
This is my issue with DOS mechanics as well. Everything looks overpowered but is underpowered against the never ending HP pools. And after a while the big flashy effects are more repetitive than impressive.
In D&D, you launch a Fireball and it turns the tide of battle or even incinerates weaker enemies in one hit. That feels powerful and satisfying.
I'm mostly in agreement, adding to both of your thoughts:

For D:OS2, Let's not forget how magic resistance + magic armor heavily nerfs spell damage. Physical damage doesn't have to worry about resistance and gets just as much crowd control as magic casting. So in D:OS2 I'm taking utility spells and warfare, with necromancer/summoning for fun. Why necromancer & summoning? Because summons deal physical damage to help your fighters shred armor faster.

Other Issues with combat in BG3:
It's not talked about enough that we don't have a full D&D 5e action economy. Current mechanics (near-free Advantage, etc.) limit strategy in the game. For example, ladders being free movement, and jump being a bonus action obscures the action economy. It makes it hard for players to notice that a bonus action is a choice and not just part of movement. To expand on this, the player should have these choices from D&D 5e:
  • XX feet of movement to use in a turn
  • 1 Action (+1 Action Surge)
  • 1 Bonus Action
  • 1 Reaction that can be used in the whole round
  • Free actions depending on the DM


Per character, that should be about 3-4 choices to make in a turn/round. Comparing with D OS:2 the player usually had 2-3 (depending on how AP was used each turn).
It feels like the player has fewer choices in Baldur's Gate 3 because the player is highly incentivized to use Jump/Disengage, which gets obscured with movement cost. And, reactions are not truly in the game, so that choice is also removed for the player. Now we're looking at 1-2 realistic choices for the player to make per turn.

All the distortions from 5e add up, and it's making combat an unpleasant experience. Players need meaningful choices to make in combat. Take Fire Emblem for example, each character the player can move and have them perform an action. It's fun and exciting because every choice is meaningful. As long as un-balanced mechanics take away meaningful choices from the player in BG3, combat will always feel lacking.

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Oh yeah and even though there are "classes" in Divinity, they're just starting skill templates. All the characters are actually weird hybrids with magic-like weapon skills and actual magic in DOS.

The classes in D&D stand for something. You know what a Cleric of Shar is. You know how a Warlock plays and what a pact is. The Classes tie into the lore of the game and have different mechanics. They are as much defined by what they can't do than what they can do. It makes them feel unique since other classes can't just take your Cunning Action if they feel like it. That's why I'm completely against giving Wizards Cleric spells and giving everyone Disengage and Hide as Bonus Actions in favor of a more DOS like free system in BG3. That's like fundamentally not understanding what makes the classes fun. And D&D does have multiclassing if you absolutely must have Cunning Action.

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It also diminishes replay value. I WANT to feel like I'm playing differently if I'm playing a different class. You can't even play the quintessential moon druid way in the current build because you can't control concentration spells like moonbeam while transformed.

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Originally Posted by flammy
- Spell system: it's really the worst. Having to take a long rest to regenerate spells is meaningless and tedious. Nothing prevents me from doing it after each fight so what's the point? Either implement some kind of meaningful constraint on taking long rests or just remove this tedious mechanics altogether, it's just a waste of time at the moment.
I would say DnD has far richer spell design. But yeah, per-rest casting never quite fits cRPG stucture. That was the case, and a problem with BG1&2. Recent cRPGs either ditched it, or tried to limit it somehow. I doesn't seem like Larian has any plans to address it in any way.

Originally Posted by flammy
- Combat system: from what I have seen, you can only perform 1 action and 1 secondary action per turn, no matter which action. It feels like a downgrade from Divinity where some actions were quicker than others and where we had the possibility of saving up action points. The combat system feels much shallower compared to Divinity.
Yes, in general I do like action point system, and DnD doesn't use it. I don't think it's a problem unless you don't get any choices to make - more actions per turn can be better, but it's not automatically better. Main, bonus, reaction, movement are still plenty choices to make. Or it would be if bonus action wasn't always push or jump and if reactions weren't what they are.

Originally Posted by flammy
In Divnity I could move my characters independently and split my party. That was also possible in BG and BG2. It seems impossible in Baldur's Gate 3? Apparently I can only select one character at a time and my part auto follows. Am I missing something with the controls?
BG3 works the same way as D:OS1&2 does - you can detatch characters by dragging them. It's fiddly and unreliable (even more so, then it was in D:OS2) but is possible to do.

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I think it's a great point that choices FEEL limited when you imbalance the choices so much. And that's exactly right, when it's by far the optimal strategy to shove or jump constantly, you never waste your time with any other bonus actions.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
But yeah, per-rest casting never quite fits cRPG stucture.
Agree! The fun for me in playing a mage is casting lots of spells and having a large selection to pick from. In games that require strict resource management I often don't get to cast much, either because I ran out or am saving them for later.

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Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Wormerine
But yeah, per-rest casting never quite fits cRPG stucture.
Agree! The fun for me in playing a mage is casting lots of spells and having a large selection to pick from. In games that require strict resource management I often don't get to cast much, either because I ran out or am saving them for later.

One of the very few things I disagree with Wormerine.

You will have lots of spellslots at higher levels and you also have cantrips that you can always cast. Don't forget that their power increase so they're always usefull.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Wormerine
But yeah, per-rest casting never quite fits cRPG stucture.
Agree! The fun for me in playing a mage is casting lots of spells and having a large selection to pick from. In games that require strict resource management I often don't get to cast much, either because I ran out or am saving them for later.

One of the very few things I disagree with Wormerine.

You will have lots of spellslots at higher levels and you also have cantrips that you can always cast. Don't forget that their power increase so they're always usefull.

Depending on how health bloat scales that may not be true.

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Originally Posted by flammy
I understand this is designed to use the D&D tabletop game rules but I think it does not make for a good video game at all.

- Spell system: it's really the worst. Having to take a long rest to regenerate spells is meaningless and tedious. Nothing prevents me from doing it after each fight so what's the point? Either implement some kind of meaningful constraint on taking long rests or just remove this tedious mechanics altogether, it's just a waste of time at the moment.

- Combat system: from what I have seen, you can only perform 1 action and 1 secondary action per turn, no matter which action. It feels like a downgrade from Divinity where some actions were quicker than others and where we had the possibility of saving up action points. The combat system feels much shallower compared to Divinity.

One more thing, that is unrelated.

In Divnity I could move my characters independently and split my party. That was also possible in BG and BG2. It seems impossible in Baldur's Gate 3? Apparently I can only select one character at a time and my part auto follows. Am I missing something with the controls?

BG3 looks promising, but all these aspects give the impression that it is a downgrade from Divinity 2.

You can split your party members by unchaining them with a drag & drop of the character icon. The same as DOS2. When one of your characters is in stealth as well, the others don't follow.

As for your complains, it's not Larian you have to complain to but Wizards of the coast. The tedious combat rules are from the tabletop game and I agree DOS2 was much more flexible and enjoyable than this. The point buy ability system is such a brilliant mechanic. I miss it too for sure.

But there might be some behind the scene agreement as to what they could do and what they couldn't. And I bet the combat system had to remain faithful to the original rules.

Last edited by Nyanko; 13/04/21 08:33 AM.
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