Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback If "dice"(core D&D element) is optional, WHY hp bloat is not???

Dice is a core thing from D&D since ... EVER!!! But D&D was never an "mmo" style of game where low level enemies can soak being impaled by spears multiple times. 5e is already much lower lethality than 2e and spells of non evocation school already got massive nerf. And what Larian did? Implemented a hp bloat, destroying enchantment spells. Sleep, Charm and so on din't get buffed to reflect the fact that a low level goblin can resist being shot by a squad of 6 archers, all rolling maximum damage on their longbows.

So, let me play without the HP bloat please.

Eh. The complaints about HP bloat in BG3 are overexaggerated. Most normal goblins in BG3 have 10-15HP, which is 1-2 additional hits compared to 5e Goblins (7 HP). With their reduced AC, it still takes a similar # of turns on average to kill a goblin using attack rolls. The goblin captains have more than 15HP, but that's perfectly fine. They're elite goblins.

The issues with goblin HP bloat come from 3 things, none of which need to be solved by reducing goblin HP:
1.) Goblins' saving throws haven't been reduced to compensate for the higher HP. Thus, vs. save spells (e.g., Sacred Flame) are less effective.
Fix: Give a -X penalty to goblin STs, similar to the AC reduction.

2.) Sleep is now much less usefull. RAW, sleep on average affects 5d8=22.5 HP, meaning 2-4 seven-HP goblins. BG3 sleep affects 24HP, affecting 1-2 goblins.
Fix: Simply buff sleep to affect 30HP and it will affect 2-3 goblins. Sacrifice the chance of sleeping 4+ goblins for the certainty that you'll sleep X HP of enemies.
Also, last I heard, Sleep doesn't work properly. Enemies should sleep until they are woken up or until 1 minute passes. They DO NOT get a saving throw each turn.

3.) Height and backstab advantage give bonuses to attack rolls but not spells with saving throws. This further nerfs saving throw spells (e.g., Sacred Flame) compared to attack rolls.
Fix: Remove height and backstab Advantage from the game. Failing that, at least change height to a +2 bonus that also applies to spell save DCs (maybe Dex-only STs). Basically, change "High Ground Advantage" to the offensive version of "half cover"

Aside from goblins, I don't think there's much evidence of HP bloat in BG3. Most monsters have the same HP as they do in 5e's Monster Manual.

", it still takes a similar # of turns on average to kill a goblin using attack rolls"


Nope. You are ignoring a thing called SPELLS!!!

2x hp bloat = 50% spell effectiveness in a edition that already DESTROYED almost all spells.

10-15 is a major change on aggregate when they should have 7 as you say, and that's not a couple HP. The beefiest possible goblin should have 12, you're rolling a 2d6, so you should also see goblins with like 2-5 health, which you NEVER see. The complete skewing of variance AND the average is the problem, plus of course, the max HP being too high.

I'm not ignoring spells. Spells with attack rolls are now easier to hit (reduced goblin AC and benefits from backstab/high ground advantage) to compensate for the lowered relative damage.

Yes, leveled damage-dealing spells against enemy saving throws are less powerful, but this would again be fixed by reducing goblin saving throws. Magic missile is the only spell that cannot be fixed to correct for enemy HP buff (without just straight out increasing its damage).

Finally, you might argue that Casters still have to spend a spell slot for reduced damage whereas fighters/etc don't. This is addressed by the fact that you can rest freely in BG3. Heck, you're even punished if you don't rest as often as possible, so you might as well spend all your slots in every fight. Spell slots in BG3 are less valuable.

If HP bloat becomes a thing for enemies other than goblins and/or limitations are placed on resting, then I'll be right there with you. Otherwise, I think the weakening of damage-dealing low-level spells on a single enemy type is not that significant, at least not compared to the similar reductions

Why should goblins have 7hp? DMs in tabletop homebrew monsters all the time. Why can't Larian have homebrewed goblins?

Goblins have 7hp for a reason.

It's so that Fighters can one hit them, and Wizards can tactically crowd control them when there are too many. Burning Hands or Sleep don't feel so satisfying to use when HP buffed goblins just brush them off. And no, being able to Long Rest after every fight is not a fix, it's part of the problem.

And the lowered AC's that make Sacred Flame and Poison Spray suddenly suck compared to Fire Bolt aren't helping either.

I don't think the HP bloat is that bad in BG3 but it's definitely a wrong direction. I hope they stop experimenting on it immediately and figure out how D&D actually plays best.

First you're arguing it's not a big change, now you're saying even if it is a big change it's not a big deal. Let's stick to one argument at a time otherwise this is going to get chaotic. Do you now agree that it is a big change?

Lowering the goblins hp would make the fights a little too easy in my opinion. Let the gobbos keep their hp buff. I prefer to not have my enemies killable in one hit.

HP bloat got adjusted in patch 4. It does make an impact, but there are other issues to champion at the moment.

Granted, it's fair to ask why we're not getting options for more D&D RAW.

I prefer my fights to not take two hours. It's not like you're going to lose the goblin fight if you have the high ground regardless.

At the end of the day it really negatively impacts magic more than anything else. You may not like killing in one hit, but you better kill in one hit if you have a limited number of spell slots. That mixed with the long rest issue takes a lot of strategy out of the game and ultimately kills the fun of a wizard. You need meaningful choices to enjoy successfully doing something.

I'm arguing it's not a big change. Goblins having higher (10-15) HP doesn't make fights take longer IF chances to hit are appropriately lowered. This is where Larian has failed: they reduced AC but not Saving Throws, and they didn't properly buff Sleep.
Goblin elites (those with >15 HP) are just that, elites, and its fine for them to have more health.

I prefer the game to be more difficult. I don't want goblin battles to suddenly become too easy, which would probably happen if they reduced their hp significantly while leaving the current AC level.
The alternative would be to increase the number of goblins which is not a good idea.
The magic is very strong right now, and it does not seem that rest will suddenly be limited in any way.

They should increase the likelihood of missing then. I prefer feeling powerful, not peashooting things down. If you miss, you miss. Feels better than limp wristed punches.

You can always increase their numbers. That's sort of the point why Wizards and CC is a thing. Different dynamics than everyone just attacking one goblin at a time.

Inflict Wounds with a +5 to hit
-5e Monster Manual 7hp & 15 AC goblins: you need a 10 to hit -> 55% chance. 3d10 will kill a 7-hp goblin 98% of the time -> 0.55*0.98 = Kill a goblin 54% of the time.
-BG3 Goblin Tacker with 13HP & 9 AC: you need a 4 to hit -> 85% chance. 3d10 will kill a 13HP goblin 78% of the time -> 0.85*0.78 = Kill a goblin 66% of the time
-BG3 Goblin Brawler with 12 HP & 12 AC: you need a 7 to hit -> 70%. 3d10 will kill a 12HP goblin 83% of the time -> 0.7*0.83 = Kill a goblin 58% of the time
-BG3 Goblin tracker #2 with 10 HP & 10AC: you need a 5 to hit -> 80%. 3d10 will kill a 10HP goblin 0.91% of the time -> 0.8*0.9 = Kill a goblin 73% of the time
-BG3 Goblin Devout with 15 HP, 14 AC: you need a 9 to hit ->60%. 3d10 will kill a 15HP goblin 64% of the time -> Kill a goblin 0.38% of the time
Taking a random sample of (non-boss) BG3 goblins, there is roughly the same chance of 1HKO'ing a BG3 goblin with Inflict Wounds as in 5e. If you consider that you have Backstab Advantage for all those BG3 goblin calculations, you're even more likely to kill said goblin. Goblin values from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGat...lin_hpac_bloat_discussion_some_research/

This does not apply to burning hands, but that's partially because goblins still have the same Dex ST bonus as they do in 5e. All of the above goblins should have a 1-6 penalty to their STs which would do a lot towards balancing burning hands. Although I will admit that, with 3d6 damage, burning hands is still probably less likely to kill a full-health BG3 goblin (25% chance of dealing 13+ damage).

That's a fair criticism. It is definitely true that in BG3 you have a higher chance of hitting but not killing. Unfortunately that seems to go against Larian's philosophy of "missing isn't fun"...I doubt they'd make this change.

Larian, please only do this if battles are massively sped up. Battles can already be a slog with the current # of goblins.

I want the goblin battle to feel different than other battles. Right now, they don't feel much different than the gnolls or the folks raiding the tomb near the beginning. The thing about goblins is that they are individually pretty weak, but they have numbers. So make them very weak - give them low HP so you can one-shot them and give them plinky little damage, but have there be a ton of them. Give the elite goblins better armor and weapons if you want, but the goblins should have a fighting style that feels different from fighting anything else - in this case, they should swarm and overwhelm and it's no big deal if you take out a couple of them right away because there are tons of them.

This encourages the player to go for different tactics than in e.g. an ogre/minotaur fight. You want attacks that impact lots of enemies at once. Encourage players to explore all of the tools, not just find one that works and flog it.

The only problem with that, is if the player has a machine that can handle all those added enemies. A lot of players do not have top of the line graphcs cards or processors. If you change the goblins by doubling or tripling their number, and reducing their health and damage, it would be more strain on the players graphics cards and may cause crashes or even buggier game play. I think that is basically why they made those minor adjustments, of a smaller number of goblins, with slightly bloated HP and slightly higher damage.

Personally, I really had no issue with the goblins HP or anything, also I have not played since patch 4, so not sure how much they modified HP bloat with that.

Which is another problem and make the whole point of short rest to regain WLK power pointless.


Put more enemies or tougher enemies.

Also, 5e already is the second lowest lethality D&D edition, losing only to 4e.

On 2e, is not impossible to end multiple enemies in a single round.


No, it does. For casters. A single magic missle can end a goblin on 5e but not on BG3.

A Eldritch Blast on 5e at lv 1 can OHK a goblin. On BG3:EA at lv cap can't.

And note that 5e already nerfed the spells to oblivion.

Goblins on BG3 are close to 4e goblins than to 5e goblins.

I agree with this for sure. They need to optimize combat so it loads quicker. Then they can do that.

This is a next gen game. It should be optimized for next gen consoles and powerful PCs.