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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
This is addressed by the fact that you can rest freely in BG3.

Which is another problem and make the whole point of short rest to regain WLK power pointless.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
No, it [is a big change]. For casters. A single magic missle can end a goblin on 5e but not on BG3.

A Eldritch Blast on 5e at lv 1 can OHK a goblin. On BG3:EA at lv cap can't. -snip-
Eldritch Blast is a cantrip. This is equivalent to a fighter's basic attack. In 5e, both can kill a OHK a goblin (if they hit). In BG3, neither can, but they have increased chances to hit.

True about magic missile. Magic missile is indeed nerfed against goblins in BG3; you'd have to roll all 4's to kill a 15HP goblin.

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Increasing the number of opponents will significantly increase the waiting time of the player, thus significantly increasing the time of the fight.
Fighting a huge horde of enemies is really not a good idea in a turn-based game.
Fights like a goblin camp are already long now and if you increase the number of enemies the situation will be even worse.
You just don't start with arguments that you can use AOE then because this argument sucks and only works if you have the initiative and / or enough sensible AOE spells (which you still need to hit).

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Magic missile in inherently nerfed by boosting the hit likelihood as well, since it's relative value is now lower. The ripple effects of Larian's choices here totally mess with the relative value, strength, and properties of the classes.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Increasing the number of opponents will significantly increase the waiting time of the player, thus significantly increasing the time of the fight.
Fighting a huge horde of enemies is really not a good idea in a turn-based game.
Fights like a goblin camp are already long now and if you increase the number of enemies the situation will be even worse.
You just don't start with arguments that you can use AOE then because this argument sucks and only works if you have the initiative and / or enough sensible AOE spells (which you still need to hit).

Solve the optimization and load time problem instead of limiting the variety of the game's encounters.

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Originally Posted by Ankou
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Increasing the number of opponents will significantly increase the waiting time of the player, thus significantly increasing the time of the fight.
Fighting a huge horde of enemies is really not a good idea in a turn-based game.
Fights like a goblin camp are already long now and if you increase the number of enemies the situation will be even worse.
You just don't start with arguments that you can use AOE then because this argument sucks and only works if you have the initiative and / or enough sensible AOE spells (which you still need to hit).

Solve the optimization and load time problem instead of limiting the variety of the game's encounters.

How does this relate to my post?

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He's saying to make the game run smoother so that you can make encounters larger. I don't agree with this. Even when lag and bugs don't slow the combat down, it still takes a long time as is. There's no need to make encounters larger just so you can decrease the hp of goblins. Spells may not be as effective as they are in 5e, but that doesn't mean they're weak. I feel pretty powerful as a spell caster. I cast sleep to great effect and use other spells when appropriate.

Lowering hp and chance to hit doesn't seem like a good idea. Say your chances to hit are lower. You shoot a spell, it misses, you shoot again next turn, it one shots the goblins. Two turns to kill a gobbo. Same as if you hit twice against an enemy with slightly more hp.

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Having swarms of dumb goblins gives you opportunities for efficiencies as well. Take away all of the fancy toys from the vast majority of them - no grenades, no magic arrows, no magic of any kind. Just give them a scimitar or a shortbow (or both). Make their AI: run at the closest enemy to me and attack. Anything you can do to make their AI dead simple and fast.

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You can make some encounters larger and increase variety is my point. If everything is 1-3 big enemies/5-6 medium enemies/10 small enemies, it's basically just predictable.

Anyway, I think the whole thing gets thrown off this way. If spells are weaker, cantrips become pointless, and you'll never use them because you'll rest spam, which you're incentivized to do because you have to use your stronger spells. Then you're long rest spamming and the warlock is now a pointless class, just as one example, because infinite long rest wizard is just more powerful.

Last edited by Ankou; 15/04/21 10:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by grysqrl
Having swarms of dumb goblins gives you opportunities for efficiencies as well. Take away all of the fancy toys from the vast majority of them - no grenades, no magic arrows, no magic of any kind. Just give them a scimitar or a shortbow (or both). Make their AI: run at the closest enemy to me and attack. Anything you can do to make their AI dead simple and fast.

So you want Larian to make the fight boring by creating BG1 quality enemies in a turn-based game?

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Originally Posted by Ankou
You can make some encounters larger and increase variety is my point. If everything is 1-3 big enemies/5-6 medium enemies/10 small enemies, it's basically just predictable.

Anyway, I think the whole thing gets thrown off this way. If spells are weaker, cantrips become pointless, and you'll never use them because you'll rest spam, which you're incentivized to do because you have to use your stronger spells. Then you're long rest spamming and the warlock is now a pointless class, just as one example, because infinite long rest wizard is just more powerful.


There is a reason why in turn-based games there are practically no fights with a lot of enemies.
Each enemy added makes the fight longer. In a turn-based game, each enemy needs its own turn to move, so the more of them there are, the longer you have to wait for your own turn.
Watching your enemies move for a few minutes while waiting for your 10 second turn is definitely not fun.
Even if the AI was running instantaneously, the motion and / or attack animation still needs to appear.

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It's boring if every enemy is highly strategic and in high volume as well.
It's a feedback loop, stupid enemies make smart enemies fun, and smart enemies make you appreciate the trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
It's boring if every enemy is highly strategic and in high volume as well.
It's a feedback loop, stupid enemies make smart enemies fun, and smart enemies make you appreciate the trash mobs.

The last thing I want in the game is trash fights.
I don't like fights that dont bring any challenge to the game, especially when they last too long.

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one, because I absolutely agree with Dragon and sqrl that variety is the spice of life and gaming. I like feeling powerful once in a while, not constantly under the gun.

Last edited by Ankou; 15/04/21 11:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Having swarms of dumb goblins gives you opportunities for efficiencies as well. Take away all of the fancy toys from the vast majority of them - no grenades, no magic arrows, no magic of any kind. Just give them a scimitar or a shortbow (or both). Make their AI: run at the closest enemy to me and attack. Anything you can do to make their AI dead simple and fast.

So you want Larian to make the fight boring by creating BG1 quality enemies in a turn-based game?
I want them to make it interesting by having it not be a carbon copy of every other fight. I want them to make me use different tactics against different enemies.

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Originally Posted by Ankou
This is a next gen game. It should be optimized for next gen consoles and powerful PCs.

Unfortunately, no game developer will do that. They will make a game for the broadest playerbase, and that includes previous gen consoles and computers. How well did that play out for CP2077?

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Game devs in general do seem to have a serious optimization problem. The last game I played with fantastic optimization maintaining a steady 140 fps or so was Doom Eternal. But I believe in Larian!

Last edited by Ankou; 15/04/21 11:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Increasing the number of opponents will significantly increase the waiting time of the player, thus significantly increasing the time of the fight..

Concurrent turns and option to speed up animations. I have played Pathfinder Kingmaker as a Necromancer, some times with over 40 minions in the screen and had no problem. Using turn based mode BTW.

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Originally Posted by Ankou
Game devs in general do seem to have a serious optimization problem. The last game I played with fantastic optimization maintaining a steady 140 fps or so was Doom Eternal. But I believe in Larian!
I really need to play Doom Eternal, I've been relaxing with old-school Doom.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Having swarms of dumb goblins gives you opportunities for efficiencies as well. Take away all of the fancy toys from the vast majority of them - no grenades, no magic arrows, no magic of any kind. Just give them a scimitar or a shortbow (or both). Make their AI: run at the closest enemy to me and attack. Anything you can do to make their AI dead simple and fast.

So you want Larian to make the fight boring by creating BG1 quality enemies in a turn-based game?
I want them to make it interesting by having it not be a carbon copy of every other fight. I want them to make me use different tactics against different enemies.
What you describe doesn't sound interesting to me. Unless you can kill all the goblins before they get their turn, I'd have to wait out all the goblin turns where they basically just auto-attack. At this point it doesn't matter to me what tactics my party could use, it would be the sheer number and repetitivness of enemy actions which would make this fight just tedious.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Having swarms of dumb goblins gives you opportunities for efficiencies as well. Take away all of the fancy toys from the vast majority of them - no grenades, no magic arrows, no magic of any kind. Just give them a scimitar or a shortbow (or both). Make their AI: run at the closest enemy to me and attack. Anything you can do to make their AI dead simple and fast.

So you want Larian to make the fight boring by creating BG1 quality enemies in a turn-based game?
I want them to make it interesting by having it not be a carbon copy of every other fight. I want them to make me use different tactics against different enemies.
What you describe doesn't sound interesting to me. Unless you can kill all the goblins before they get their turn, I'd have to wait out all the goblin turns where they basically just auto-attack. At this point it doesn't matter to me what tactics my party could use, it would be the sheer number and repetitivness of enemy actions which would make this fight just tedious.

Then put a stronger enemy than a mere goblin.

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