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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Then put a stronger enemy than a mere goblin.

So we go back to the starting point.
Replacing goblins with other types of creatures is a stupid idea that would require a lot of story change for zero profit.
What does it matter if we are fighting stronger goblins or something else?

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There are already bugbears and a hobgoblin. Bugbears and Hobgoblins would not change the story at all. Another ogre fight wouldn't be strange at all.

It's not that difficult, D&D 5e is designed with the idea of being able to add in monsters on-the-fly.

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Let me put it this way. What's cooler in Lord of the Rings? Some sort of roided out orc, or the fight gets way tougher because "They have a cave troll?" Also I get wanting a challenge, but seriously the people who say it always has to be don't want to be Legolas sliding down the stairs on a shield once in a while and not always Legolas versus cave troll?

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
And no, being able to Long Rest after every fight is not a fix, it's part of the problem.

Correct. It is a snowball effect that Larian did in order to meld 5e and DOS as much as possible, but maintain the illusion you are still operating under 5e mechanics.

As I posted in other threads about this, you can dissect every layer of the BG3 combat to see that Larian homebrew is meant so that their DOS base is not completely alienated in this game. They are not catering to 5e people, they are catering to Larian loyalists that may not have a 5e background at all. It is in their interest not to alienate their base.

Larian not only did not put parameters around the Rest system, but also tied all the major cutscenes and story progression to resting in order to passively pigeon-hole you through resting anyway. The game is literally designed so that you are not in those tense and desperate situations of being caught without many spell slots before you need to pass difficult content. It is anti-5e, anti-DnD.

After watching gameplay footage from others on various sites, I realized the average player that is playing this game in EA is not very good at the combat. Even though the best of us know that the combat is super easy and formulaic to the point of drudgery at times, the average player sucks at combat. This is why there are a lot of complaints about the game being too hard, even though you literally can fight every single fight with all spell slots available on every character if you so wished.

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Originally Posted by gaymer
After watching gameplay footage from others on various sites, I realized the average player that is playing this game in EA is not very good at the combat. Even though the best of us know that the combat is super easy and formulaic to the point of drudgery at times, the average player sucks at combat. This is why there are a lot of complaints about the game being too hard, even though you literally can fight every single fight with all spell slots available on every character if you so wished.

Unless you are a previous DOS player, some of the Larian combat features are so absurd, the average player would not know those features were in place. I had no idea you could eat food in combat, throw barrels and people until I read about them in these forums. It's so outrageous that such mechanics exist, I would have thought them as jokes until I realized that's how DOS played. I would think the average player not familiar with DOS would think as I do. For 5e players, even more. So to cater to average players unfamiliar with DOS, the game will be made even easier...

If you understand Larian's mindframe, the combat is a joke. There's no real tactics required other than using cheese (what I would call broken) mechanics.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Unless you are a previous DOS player, some of the Larian combat features are so absurd, the average player would not know those features were in place. I had no idea you could eat food in combat, throw barrels and people until I read about them in these forums. It's so outrageous that such mechanics exist, I would have thought them as jokes until I realized that's how DOS played. I would think the average player not familiar with DOS would think as I do. For 5e players, even more. So to cater to average players unfamiliar with DOS, the game will be made even easier...

If you understand Larian's mindframe, the combat is a joke. There's no real tactics required other than using cheese (what I would call broken) mechanics.
Speaking of Larian and game mechanic balance: you don't like combat mechanics like loading an ornate chest or backpack with as much weight as possible (literally 1000's of kg), specking into telekinesis (to lift 1000's of kg), and wits and scoundrel (to guaranty over 100% critical chance) and throwing the chest at enemies, doing 10K damage with one attack? You can't guarantee a one shot kill on any enemy, every time in 5e? Dozens of other broken mechanics are rife in every Larian game. A year after the release of Divinity Original Sin II, Larian made a massive balance patch just to try to make their game somewhat balanced for none cheese tactic players, and I considered it too little, too late. The game was still highly imbalanced regardless of cheese, and cheese strategies, whether features or exploits still existed, and they were numerous, and game breaking balance wise. Larian make the most mechanically broken games I've ever played in the genre. I could never imagine Larian making a game as nuanced, strategic, and balanced as Tower of Time. It took D&D decades of refinement to get to 5e, and while its not perfect, most would agree it's fairly mechanically balanced. Which is the exact opposite of anything Larian has ever developed to date.

The only reason I gave this game a chance was because I figured if Larian stayed faithful to the core mechanics of 5e D&D, they would have the foundation for a balanced game. I really hoped they stayed true to the numbers and mechanics of 5e, not because I am a fan of 5e, but because it was an opportunity for Larian to make their first mechanically balance game. All the numbers, all the math, and all the balancing was already done for them, how could they mess that up? I hoped that was Larian's intentions behind using the D&D licence, and 5e mechanics. Using 5e core mechanics would give Larian an opportunity to make a game on the foundations of a mechanically solid system. Instead, they made a 5e and DOS chimera, and it's a monstrosity.

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Originally Posted by ReaLMoisan
Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Unless you are a previous DOS player, some of the Larian combat features are so absurd, the average player would not know those features were in place. I had no idea you could eat food in combat, throw barrels and people until I read about them in these forums. It's so outrageous that such mechanics exist, I would have thought them as jokes until I realized that's how DOS played. I would think the average player not familiar with DOS would think as I do. For 5e players, even more. So to cater to average players unfamiliar with DOS, the game will be made even easier...

If you understand Larian's mindframe, the combat is a joke. There's no real tactics required other than using cheese (what I would call broken) mechanics.
Speaking of Larian and game mechanic balance: you don't like combat mechanics like loading an ornate chest or backpack with as much weight as possible (literally 1000's of kg), specking into telekinesis (to lift 1000's of kg), and wits and scoundrel (to guaranty over 100% critical chance) and throwing the chest at enemies, doing 10K damage with one attack? You can't guarantee a one shot kill on any enemy, every time in 5e? Dozens of other broken mechanics are rife in every Larian game. A year after the release of Divinity Original Sin II, Larian made a massive balance patch just to try to make their game somewhat balanced for none cheese tactic players, and I considered it too little, too late. The game was still highly imbalanced regardless of cheese, and cheese strategies, whether features or exploits still existed, and they were numerous, and game breaking balance wise. Larian make the most mechanically broken games I've ever played in the genre. I could never imagine Larian making a game as nuanced, strategic, and balanced as Tower of Time. It took D&D decades of refinement to get to 5e, and while its not perfect, most would agree it's fairly mechanically balanced. Which is the exact opposite of anything Larian has ever developed to date.

The only reason I gave this game a chance was because I figured if Larian stayed faithful to the core mechanics of 5e D&D, they would have the foundation for a balanced game. I really hoped they stayed true to the numbers and mechanics of 5e, not because I am a fan of 5e, but because it was an opportunity for Larian to make their first mechanically balance game. All the numbers, all the math, and all the balancing was already done for them, how could they mess that up? I hoped that was Larian's intentions behind using the D&D licence, and 5e mechanics. Using 5e core mechanics would give Larian an opportunity to make a game on the foundations of a mechanically solid system. Instead, they made a 5e and DOS chimera, and it's a monstrosity.

Unfortunately very true.

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By the way, there's a general misconception that only goblins have too much health, but if you look at the spectator it has twice as much health as it should. In the monster manual it averages like 39 health. So this is a bigger problem than goblins.

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Originally Posted by Ankou
By the way, there's a general misconception that only goblins have too much health, but if you look at the spectator it has twice as much health as it should. In the monster manual it averages like 39 health. So this is a bigger problem than goblins.
Good to know. That makes the issue of HP bloat a bit more worrying.

If it's limited to the occasional monster here or there, that's still probably fine. I'd wager that most DMs have at some point adjusted various monsters' health to be more or less challenging to the party..
But if this continues to escalate through Acts 2 and 3, buffing enemy HP to compensate for increased hit % (importantly, without making corresponding adjustments to ST, AC, etc) then yeahhh that's not the greatest...

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I don’t like the hit point bloat because of its impact on spell casters, but I do understand why Larian went this direction.

First, you have players that think a miss is boring. They don’t understand the math behind swinging and always hitting an opponent with a bunch of extra hit points vs one that you hit rarely but goes down quickly when you do hit. Also, this is a low level problem, which is there in part to provide you with a sense of character development. By the time you start to approach level 10, you hardly miss an enemy anyway, so the primary underlying reason for hit point bloat “should” go away.

Second, goblins are dangerous because of their numbers but because this is a turn based game, battles take forever. Each goblin gets a turn and it can be agonizing sitting there while the AI try’s to compute a move. I often find that the AI cannot figure out what to do and so it will just spend 30 seconds thinking only to grunt and do nothing. If Larian were to send a horde of weak goblins at us, it would probably crash the engine. At the very least it would make battles painfully long.

Third, they have bloated hit points to create the sense we are fighting a boss. I am sure this is why the spectator has the increased hit points. The concept of the “boss battle” is the most overused trope in video games.

If at some point rest gets adjusted such that it is not free, spell casting classes will be destroyed if this bloat continues. I would really hate to have all my spells used up as I grind through a dungeon, only to confront a boss that has been balanced against a full strength group and with a massive hit point boost to make sure it is suitably challenging. Already by level 4 my cantrips are increasingly useless. I get to watch Lzeal hit easier than me and produce massive DPS, while I am relegated to hurling fire bolts which rarely hit. My most important spells, such as sleep, maybe take down 2 dudes for a couple rounds. If they want to continue down the path of hit point bloat, they should buff spell casters or it will be better to just take 4 fighters.

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Originally Posted by JJRX5
I don’t like the hit point bloat because of its impact on spell casters, but I do understand why Larian went this direction.

First, you have players that think a miss is boring. They don’t understand the math behind swinging and always hitting an opponent with a bunch of extra hit points vs one that you hit rarely but goes down quickly when you do hit. Also, this is a low level problem, which is there in part to provide you with a sense of character development. By the time you start to approach level 10, you hardly miss an enemy anyway, so the primary underlying reason for hit point bloat “should” go away.

Second, goblins are dangerous because of their numbers but because this is a turn based game, battles take forever. Each goblin gets a turn and it can be agonizing sitting there while the AI try’s to compute a move. I often find that the AI cannot figure out what to do and so it will just spend 30 seconds thinking only to grunt and do nothing. If Larian were to send a horde of weak goblins at us, it would probably crash the engine. At the very least it would make battles painfully long.

Third, they have bloated hit points to create the sense we are fighting a boss. I am sure this is why the spectator has the increased hit points. The concept of the “boss battle” is the most overused trope in video games.

If at some point rest gets adjusted such that it is not free, spell casting classes will be destroyed if this bloat continues. I would really hate to have all my spells used up as I grind through a dungeon, only to confront a boss that has been balanced against a full strength group and with a massive hit point boost to make sure it is suitably challenging. Already by level 4 my cantrips are increasingly useless. I get to watch Lzeal hit easier than me and produce massive DPS, while I am relegated to hurling fire bolts which rarely hit. My most important spells, such as sleep, maybe take down 2 dudes for a couple rounds. If they want to continue down the path of hit point bloat, they should buff spell casters or it will be better to just take 4 fighters.

Rest will most likely not be limited (the game isn't designed for limited rest), so the farther in the game, the more powerful casters become.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Rest will most likely not be limited (the game isn't designed for limited rest), so the farther in the game, the more powerful casters become.

While for most of the game yes, there is vestiges of things that indicate that limited rest is meant to be something. You can not long rest in the hag dungeon for example which I think indicates that there will be a lot more areas where that is a thing. If there were more areas like that could help with the resting issue and balance things down. Also HP bloat to me is iffy, for certain encounters it works and makes sense while other encounters it is tedious and makes me feel like my casters are doing very very little, it honestly should be a base by base casis. I am fine with creatures deviating from their normal stats and abilities, most every DM does that as it makes it interesting, but sometimes it would be better to stay closer to the original stats with enemies that are meant to be their normal versions.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Rest will most likely not be limited (the game isn't designed for limited rest), so the farther in the game, the more powerful casters become.

While for most of the game yes, there is vestiges of things that indicate that limited rest is meant to be something. You can not long rest in the hag dungeon for example which I think indicates that there will be a lot more areas where that is a thing. If there were more areas like that could help with the resting issue and balance things down. Also HP bloat to me is iffy, for certain encounters it works and makes sense while other encounters it is tedious and makes me feel like my casters are doing very very little, it honestly should be a base by base casis. I am fine with creatures deviating from their normal stats and abilities, most every DM does that as it makes it interesting, but sometimes it would be better to stay closer to the original stats with enemies that are meant to be their normal versions.

I suspect that if rest is forbidden in some areas, they will be definitely rare. I doubt if they suddenly forbid resting in a location such as a goblin camp or an underdark there are far too many fights there (I can already imagine how annoying an underdark would be if you had to come back to the surface after each fight).
Most likely, these will be locations with a minimum number of fights, otherwise no one will forbid you to go out and rest outside.

In turn-based games, it is always better to fight a smaller number of powerful enemies, thanks to which the turns take much less time. The last thing I'd like to do is fight the goblin hordes.
These types of fights will become annoying very quickly.

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Do you hear that Larian? Start already catering to the true gaming community which upon discovering they miss to much, try to figure out how to miss less and not just ask the dev to give them please some easier mode. Give us more harsh raw punishing dnd.


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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
I suspect that if rest is forbidden in some areas, they will be definitely rare. I doubt if they suddenly forbid resting in a location such as a goblin camp or an underdark there are far too many fights there (I can already imagine how annoying an underdark would be if you had to come back to the surface after each fight).

In my experience, it's definitely possible to clear the goblin camp in a single "day" without resting, if you pace yourself right. Logically I think it should be a "no resting" area. Can't speak for the Underdark.

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Resting being limited would make sense. On Solasta, resting takes supplies and you can only rest in specific areas. Hell, On Dark Sun : Wake of The Ravager which is my favorite Turn Based RPG, UnderDark is very hard due the lack of places to rest.

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Originally Posted by VenusP
Do you hear that Larian? Start already catering to the true gaming community which upon discovering they miss to much, try to figure out how to miss less and not just ask the dev to give them please some easier mode. Give us more harsh raw punishing dnd.

Wow, now you have me curious...Who exactly is the "true gaming community"? Not sure where I saw the other comment, but it WOULD be cool if there was some more dynamic "surprise" monster encounters. Would also be cool if there was at least some respawn in areas like around the windmill, or the swamp after a while so your not running through empty area after you clear it once for the rest of the game. But not so much where it is just constant battles of trash mobs etc.

Last edited by Pandemonica; 27/04/21 02:29 AM.
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