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addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2021
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Game balance is about the core mechanics in the game, and how they're balanced with all aspect of the game. Just quoting what is pertinent to my reply. This is the gist of it, isn’t it?... You literally have to hamstring yourself to attempt to play this game using 5e rules. If players have to police themselves to maintain some form of balance in the game, that’s not player options. That’s just bad game design. Let's not forget how even if you didn't want to use the tools/cheese/mechanics, the player is punished. The biggest problem is the cheese isn't optional. If you don't go for high ground advantage... you get low ground disadvantage. If you don't go for backstab + shove, the goblins will.
Last edited by DragonSnooz; 19/04/21 06:30 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Exactly. Those core mechanics unbalance everything whether the players uses them or not.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2021
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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I remember this so well. Tactical Adventures changed darkvision from the core mechanics of 5e D&D, and people were up in arms about this issue with Solasta. Of course Tactical Adventures addressed the issue and changed it as quickly as they could.Through the whole thing, all I could think about was this game, and the utter disregard for not only 5e mechanics, but any attempt at balanced mechanics at all.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2020
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I remember this so well. Tactical Adventures changed darkvision from the core mechanics of 5e D&D, and people were up in arms about this issue with Solasta. Of course Tactical Adventures addressed the issue and changed it as quickly as they could.Through the whole thing, all I could think about was this game, and the utter disregard for not only 5e mechanics, but any attempt at balanced mechanics at all. Oh you mean, TA listening to feedback by the community and then analyzing and retesting, keeping communication open. They ultimately agreed with their EA testers. Man, that was nice. I wonder if there’s a lesson here somewhere...
Last edited by spectralhunter; 19/04/21 11:44 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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I agree. It was nice that Tactical Adventures did that. I agree, I'd love some feedback one why or another. Just tell me what Im getting. I can accept a no 5e game. I might be disappointed but I can accept it. Its the not hearing anything that's hard.
That said, one thing I will say in Larians defense. Look at the sheer volume of posts. The difference between Larian and TA is that Larian has a MUCH bigger fan base that they really want to make happy. So while TA had 3,000 posts on steam, Larian had 18,000 just for BG3. That's a lot more people to make happy and a lot harder and more time consuming. Plus, BG3 is a MUCH more diverse game with a lot more potential and paths to take.
That said, this is why a 5e Difficulty Option would solve a lot of issues. Give the 5e'ers 5e strict rules more like how Solasta is and shut up half your fan base. Then give the rest who like quasi- DOS what they want. Yes, I'm sure that's more coding, but in the end it will make a LOT of fans happy and potentially bring in more hard core D&D fans.
D&D fans are like Star Wars fans. If something like the scar on Kyle Rens face is off, we notice and get upset. You gotta be consistent and stay true to the genre, the rules, the story, etc. Look at the Drow post and you'll see what I mean.
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member
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member
Joined: Mar 2021
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I agree. It was nice that Tactical Adventures did that. I agree, I'd love some feedback one why or another. Just tell me what Im getting. I can accept a no 5e game. I might be disappointed but I can accept it. Its the not hearing anything that's hard.
That said, one thing I will say in Larians defense. Look at the sheer volume of posts. The difference between Larian and TA is that Larian has a MUCH bigger fan base that they really want to make happy. So while TA had 3,000 posts on steam, Larian had 18,000 just for BG3. That's a lot more people to make happy and a lot harder and more time consuming. Plus, BG3 is a MUCH more diverse game with a lot more potential and paths to take.
That said, this is why a 5e Difficulty Option would solve a lot of issues. Give the 5e'ers 5e strict rules more like how Solasta is and shut up half your fan base. Then give the rest who like quasi- DOS what they want. Yes, I'm sure that's more coding, but in the end it will make a LOT of fans happy and potentially bring in more hard core D&D fans.
D&D fans are like Star Wars fans. If something like the scar on Kyle Rens face is off, we notice and get upset. You gotta be consistent and stay true to the genre, the rules, the story, etc. Look at the Drow post and you'll see what I mean. The problem lies in Larian's development ethos. Instead of starting with 5E and making changes to better suit the video game medium, they started with DOS, and attempted to stick in some 5E (which they admitted to not understanding very well), but 5E does not mesh well with DOS. Now they have DOS environments and mechanics, with 5E characters running around in it, and it's a grand exercise in the ' law of unintended consequences'.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Dec 2020
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Well, there are two issues with BG3 and DD5 rules :
1 - First, the Larian additions that breaks DD5 rules. This is discussed in many threads : high ground, surfaces, backstab, jump, lack of some combat actions present in the PhB, etc ...
2 - Second, and it is not negligible : a very poor User Interface that is not convenient at all. Games as Solasta or before Pathfinder KM (for Pathfinder rules that are even more complex than DD5), POE, etc ... did a huge work to define a convenient (and most of the time nice / immersive) User Interface that helps the player to interact with the system.
For me, Larian should work on these two aspects. Despite the disappointment of some DD / BG players who may be disappointed by the fact BG3 is too far from DD rules, also that will show that Larian has difficulties to do something else than DOS games whereas this BG3 game should be an opportunity to show that Larian can do different games.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Exactly! This is an opportunity for them to do something new. But yeah.. the combat actions are significant too... Ready action and Dodge action are damn powerful tools in some combat situations. Not having them is definitely not good.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Apr 2021
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I agree with the OP. Solasta's combat plays way better then BG3's.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Apr 2021
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Long post, I know, but I hope someone reads this feedback anyway and does not ignore it as another Solasta-related shitpost tl;dr Solasta if you like to solve tactical puzzles in SP (not aware if it has MP at all), BG3 if you want to have a cinematic Single-/Multiplayer experience I agree with the OP. Solasta's combat plays way better then BG3's. But can you shove a goblin watchman from his guardpost into a ravine? I have only seen Solasta's trailers, but BG3 appears simply more cinematic to me. Raw mechanics are interesting, especially when the finer/math-y points are handled by a fast calculating computer. If that is your main draw for a 5e/D&D video game, by all means play Solasta over BG3. Edit: There is a reason Pool of Radiance and Temple of Elemental Evil, who slavishly followed D&D rules to the letter are somewhat obscure games for genre enthusiasts while Baldurs Gate 1+2 are beloved classics despite the jank. That being said, I can see BG3 being more fun with friends, as it lends itself better to CREATING memorable stories. That is only in part referencing the writing that is in the game. How players interact with the story is always much more memorable. Like, your druid character wishes to help the druids first and foremost (i.e. "handling" the Tieflings) while your dickass thief buddy (who may very well exist in the same game at the same time) does not really care and navigates goblin politics for fun. That can lead to PvP conflict, and it has 'broken' many attempts at playing the campaign together with friends, each of them memorable, mind you. This happened to me while playing the EA in MP for the first time: Cleric, Druid, Wizard party (all players with no NPCs) Cleric decides he does not like Tieflings, frees the goblin and leads them to the goblin camp Druid wants to assist his fellow druids, but decides to go through Halsin instead of sucking up to the understudy Kagha, he goes along Wizard follows along for his own reasons/the cure At the goblin lair, the Cleric slinks away with Sazza (rescued goblin), while Druid and Wizard search for Halsin Cleric is tricked by Sazza, alone before the mighty Drow priestess, getting eviscerated by spiders is definitely on the table. He breaks down and joins the priestess and shows her on the map where the refugees are Wizard+Druid rescue Halsin, discover where to go next Cleric runs off to the grove and opens the gate, but is killed by the Tieflings Druid+Wizard find out about this treachery and fight the goblins (and the Tieflings, since they rightfully believe that the party betrayed them) Here is where the game broke: The goblins did not fight back until they were half dead and only fought us one at a time, making the fight kind of trivial, Druid was in fact afk for 20 minutes while Wizard solo'd most of the killing. The Druids of the grove sealed themselves in in lieu of getting murdered (a very good idea! Bravo, Larian!), sadly there was no option to appeal to them through the sealed door, Halsin was not to be found anywhere either (either to kill us or to berate us). We restarted with another fresh party soon after. In my head, the remaining party, Druid and Wizard, did not revive Cleric after his betrayal (and neither was he in that game) and moved on to the Shady Towers, or whatever the non-EA part of the game will be, smoking ruins and carnage in their wake. My "favorite" part: Cleric was of the Light-Domain 
Last edited by Sarevok Jr.; 24/04/21 08:42 PM. Reason: forgot to add smth
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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Long post, I know, but I hope someone reads this feedback anyway and does not ignore it as another Solasta-related shitpost tl;dr Solasta if you like to solve tactical puzzles in SP (not aware if it has MP at all), BG3 if you want to have a cinematic Single-/Multiplayer experience I agree with the OP. Solasta's combat plays way better then BG3's. But can you shove a goblin watchman from his guardpost into a ravine? I have only seen Solasta's trailers, but BG3 appears simply more cinematic to me. Raw mechanics are interesting, especially when the finer/math-y points are handled by a fast calculating computer. If that is your main draw for a 5e/D&D video game, by all means play Solasta over BG3. Edit: There is a reason Pool of Radiance and Temple of Elemental Evil, who slavishly followed D&D rules to the letter are somewhat obscure games for genre enthusiasts while Baldurs Gate 1+2 are beloved classics despite the jank. That being said, I can see BG3 being more fun with friends, as it lends itself better to CREATING memorable stories. That is only in part referencing the writing that is in the game. How players interact with the story is always much more memorable. Like, your druid character wishes to help the druids first and foremost (i.e. "handling" the Tieflings) while your dickass thief buddy (who may very well exist in the same game at the same time) does not really care and navigates goblin politics for fun. That can lead to PvP conflict, and it has 'broken' many attempts at playing the campaign together with friends, each of them memorable, mind you. I get your point and generally agree with you. BG3 is obviously made for the multiplayer & cinematic experience, whereas Solasta is made primarily for a linear story and tactical combat. But one of the tutorial missions in Solasta explicitly tells you to shove some wolves off a bridge into a ravine. Like, a tooltip comes up informing you about Shove and suggesting that you push those puppies right off. So the example you brought up is amusing :P
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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BG3 has cinematics and aesthetics done completely well. For a dnd game they have translated that aspect really really well, many of the creatures look like how they are supposed to and everything looks fairly good to where graphical glitches actually are glaring cause everything else has quality.
But mechanics BG3 is not even close to Solasta, rather it is clearly incomplete. Most everything is clearly not finished and needs time and effort put to working on it. BG3 has the potential to be the best DnD game if they move closer to 5e mechanics and finish the mechanics.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Apr 2021
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But one of the tutorial missions in Solasta explicitly tells you to shove some wolves off a bridge into a ravine. Like, a tooltip comes up informing you about Shove and suggesting that you push those puppies right off. So the example you brought up is amusing :P I see, thanks for the clarification. I stumbled upon this "edition war" today and it is one of the more embarrassing things I have seen this month. If people want to shitpost about Solasta > BG3 because reasons, they should do so on 4chan's /v/ or reddit and not in the Early Access feedback forum.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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Look. Some people might be griping, but not everyone. I love BG3. That's said, I think it would be better if it took some elements of Solasta that Soladta does well. That's all. I like Solasta, but if I had to pick between the two, which I do often, I'd pick BG3. Ive played 300+ hours of this game and 30 of Solasta, so that tells you something.
But again, BG3 could be SO much more fun if they tightened up the mechanics, more like Solasta, and organized their UI a bit better, more like Solasta.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2021
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But one of the tutorial missions in Solasta explicitly tells you to shove some wolves off a bridge into a ravine. Like, a tooltip comes up informing you about Shove and suggesting that you push those puppies right off. So the example you brought up is amusing :P I see, thanks for the clarification. I stumbled upon this "edition war" today and it is one of the more embarrassing things I have seen this month. If people want to shitpost about Solasta > BG3 because reasons, they should do so on 4chan's /v/ or reddit and not in the Early Access feedback forum. Most of us just want good visuals and fun combat in Baldur's Gate 3. It's not really about which is better.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Apr 2021
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Exactly, BG3 is an amazing looking game with a great story. If the core combat was better, this game would be a master piece in my opinion.
I never played 5e or any dnd games but I played solasta after reading the forum posts about this game. First I thought "this game was lame" but when I got to combat, I understood why it was praised in this forum.
Is solasta perfect ? No.
Is the combat fun ? Yes.
Bg3 can even be better than solasta in combat, they just need to accept whatever dnd 5e rules are. From what I saw the combat of 5e is not bad at all. If solasta was faithful to 5e rules.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Exactly, BG3 is an amazing looking game with a great story. If the core combat was better, this game would be a master piece in my opinion.
I never played 5e or any dnd games but I played solasta after reading the forum posts about this game. First I thought "this game was lame" but when I got to combat, I understood why it was praised in this forum.
Is solasta perfect ? No.
Is the combat fun ? Yes.
Bg3 can even be better than solasta in combat, they just need to accept whatever dnd 5e rules are. From what I saw the combat of 5e is not bad at all. If solasta was faithful to 5e rules. Yeah I agree wholeheartedly and it seems quite many do. And yes; Solasta is indeed extremely faithful to actual DND 5E rules.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Dec 2020
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I see, thanks for the clarification. I stumbled upon this "edition war" today and it is one of the more embarrassing things I have seen this month.
If people want to shitpost about Solasta > BG3 because reasons, they should do so on 4chan's /v/ or reddit and not in the Early Access feedback forum. One must read between the lines, lest the actual meaning is lost. It’s a lot less shitposting about Solasta, and a lot more shitposting about how Larian has given really awkward interviews about how they’ve changed the systems the way they did with very unfortunate implications about why they did so. Solasta just happens to directly contradict some aspects of that philosophy, so naturally a fair amount of people gravitate towards using it in their arguments.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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Exactly. Larian says that all the changes they made to 5e rules are because they don't work on a video game. In order to balance BG3 they had to put in their homebrew rules.
But Solasta proves that 5e does work on a video game. They stayed very true to 5e rules and it works really well. All we're saying is that BG3 would benefit greatly by taking a few lessons from Solasta.
Shove, for example, is an Attack and therefore an Action. It should replace doing a melee or ranged attack because it is an unarmed attack. That makes sense. In Solasta, you can push someone away OR knock them prone. If you knock them prone, it is easier to hit that's target with other melee attacks. So there is MORE strategy options with these rules and they make more sense. I can either shove someone off a cliff or knock them prone so my allies can hit them easier.
In BG3, I can hit with a melee weapon AND shove someone off a cliff all on one turn. So essentially Larian is allowing characters to do 2 attacks in one turn. There is also not knock prone feature, thus limiting your strategy options.
This is just one example. There are so many more.
So let me ask you, why would Larian have to make Shove a Bonus instead of an Action to make it work well in a video game? Why would they have to remove the knock prone option as well to make it work with a video game? If Solasta can do it, and it works well, why not BG3? THAT is our argument.
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