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Originally Posted by PolyHeister
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
[quote=Grudgebearer]They also need to add +2 cover AC against ranged attacks for enemies engaged in melee combat, and decouple jump and disengage, make them cost an action, and provoke AOO, and implement push as per 5e rules instead of their hulk push.

<sigh>

This is all wishful thinking though, I doubt Larian is backtracking from their insistence on including

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to the removal of most incentive to use them offensively rather than defensively.

I personally think +2/-2 on high ground is too much too. In high ground you can move out of line of sight most of the time to not even be seen. But maybe that would be more applicable in higher difficulties, or add +2 AC to all creature in high difficulty to negate that bonus that way.

I'm of the opinion that high ground shouldn't impart any bonus; getting higher up doesn't make a person more accurate with a ranged weapon. If they implemented +2 ranged cover for melee engaged target, I'd be ok with a homebrew rule change to negate the +2 if one had high ground advantage, but otherwise nothing.

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Maybe height should give a bonus only to dmg? Or even advantage on the DAMAGE rolls?

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Originally Posted by ReaLMoisan
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol. Join the D&D Works in Solasta Club! 😄

Some of us here are trying so hard to make this point too. The one why Solasta really kills BG3 is that it does 5e right.

That's said, I have learned that part of the issue is that Larian is not just trying to appeal to 5e fans. You have a LOT of people out here who really hate 5e rules and want the game to be more like DOS or even other video games totally unrelated.

But, this game is Forgotten Realms. It was marketed as a 5e game. So, in my opinion, the non-5e people should take more of a back seat. I know that sounds harsh, but making a D&D world game NOT true to D&D is like throwing elements of Star Trek into Star Wars and saying it's okay, they're both Sci Fi. Faerun has ALWAYS been about D&D. So the game should be more true to D&D. It should not be a quasi-D&D kinda like DOS game.
I don't get this though. D&D 5e is far more popular and profitable than this game will ever be. Wizards of the Coats made $814 million in revenue in 2020, while Larian made $12 million in revenue in the same year. Divinity OS II made just over 1 million sales, while 5e D&D has over 14 million current players, even by the lowest estimates. You'd think being closer to the core mechanics of 5e D&D would be a selling feature, not a detriment. 5e D&D is far more popular than this game could ever hope to be.

Are you seriously comparing the profits from a video game and a board game right now? Or is it a joke? Do you realize that these are different things, don't you? And that they get paid for completely different products? Different audience, huh? I hope I just didn't understand your irony.

Please stop calling DnD a 'board game'. Your lack of knowledge on the topic is showing.

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Originally Posted by simsurf
Please stop calling DnD a 'board game'. Your lack of knowledge on the topic is showing.

Technically, it IS a board game. But not in the classic sense of it coming in a box with a game board like Monopoly. A lot of DM's use home made maps to place your mini character. Also, using LED flatscreen "game tables" are very popular right now as well to lay out dungeon maps, town maps etc to work with your character miniature. You roll dice (though not to move, but to see success/failure of actions).

But most D&D sessions I have ever been a part of, utilize a "board" to help visualization. This has been going on since the inception. If you don't believe me, or think I am "hating on D&D players", look up Essential kits, or starter kits. Some get so into it they literally make 3D boards for their stories with walls buildings etc.

Last edited by Pandemonica; 26/04/21 10:41 PM.
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Let's not get upset over semantics.

Last edited by footface; 26/04/21 10:44 PM.
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That's a callback to many pages ago. I wouldn't call D&D a board game as it's not played on a pre-defined or special board that comes with the game. I feel like the board coming in the box with the game is basically required to classify a game as a board game. Or, failing that, there is a single standardized board used by ~everyone (e.g., the Chess board doesn't need to come with your chess set, but you'll always play chess on a chess board).

I'd lump D&D and board games in the larger category of tabletop games, but distinct from one another.

Last edited by mrfuji3; 26/04/21 10:56 PM.
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Boardgame is a specific type of tapletop game. D&D and Monopoly are both tapletop games, but only Monopoly is a boardgame.

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I hate to break it to you, but I do not play D&D at all with a board. I used to, but I have found that it slows play down even more with a board. I now play completely with imagination. I tell players what they see, give them options, etc. No board.

So, definitely NOT a board game. It is an RPG. The point is to create a character and put yourself in the role. I would actually say that D&D is more like a choose your own adventure story than a boardgame.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I hate to break it to you, but I do not play D&D at all with a board. I used to, but I have found that it slows play down even more with a board. I now play completely with imagination. I tell players what they see, give them options, etc. No board.

So, definitely NOT a board game. It is an RPG. The point is to create a character and put yourself in the role. I would actually say that D&D is more like a choose your own adventure story than a boardgame.

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but just because you choose not to, doesn't mean that a bunch of people do. There is literally a whole industry supporting it. You choose not to with your games, that is cool. I have played both ways, depending on the group, either way could be better. Some people need more visual que, some don't. Some people like to have custom 3D minis printed up that they paint that represents their character, and like to play with more interactive mediums rather than imagination (even though they also are using their imagination).

Some players are DMs don't like using starter kits, or essentials kits. Some do. My whole comment was simply saying, that yes, depending on who you are playing with. Boards, flatscreen play tables, coffee tables set up with blocks to be a dungeon all are used. Also with essential kits they provide them for premade adventures (though usually they are cheap paper maps that fold out on coffee table).

Though DragonSnooz is correct in the definition between a tabletop and a boardgame. The real difference is, D&D is a tabletop, but can use boards, but isn't a "boardgame". So my original sentence of "technically" is wrong. But it is still game that can used a board but overall it is tabletop, and is not a classic boardgame.

*edit: also a boardgame is usually a competition between 2 or more players, where D&D is the co op play of 2 or more players. But the definition of boardgame is "Board games are tabletop games that typically use pieces moved or placed on a pre-marked board and often include elements of table, card, role-playing, and miniatures games as well. Most feature a competition between two or more players".

Last edited by Pandemonica; 27/04/21 02:20 AM.
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Lol. I was really just trying to say that it is definitely not a board game because it can be played completely without a board. I know you can play with a board, but it is totally not dependent upon a board.

This was in response to those who were trying to argue that it is a board game. It really isn't. A board is a supplement to the game, a tool people use to make it more visual.

The thing about D&D is that it can be played in so many ways. Some play it more like a board game. Solasta is actually designed in a way that is more for these types of players, and they've even said this was what they are going for. Baldurs is more story based.

So, if we were to put Larian and Tactical Adventures into DM types, Tactical Adventures would be more like the Board Game D&D players who like to map out every dungeon room and the focus is a bit more on mapping out and finding monsters.

Larian seems more story focused. They don't care as much about the rules and having you measure things out properly and such. BG3 feels more to me like the DM is describing things more loosely.

Here's an example of the difference.

Gale is fighting a goblin. In Solasta's DM gameplay experience, the DM measures out and says, "The goblin is 15 feet away." Gale says, "I will use Magic Missile and drink a potion." Solasta DM gets down level with the map and says, "Nope. Can't. Blocked. Oh, and potion is an Action. Not Bonus." Gale decides to move his pawn so that he has line of sight. He gets level with the map. "There we go. And fine. I won't use potions. I forgot. You don't allow potions as bonuses."

Larian Dm is more like, "You see a goblin ahead of you." Gale says, "I jump behind him and hit him with my staff." Larian DM says, "Ok. Roll to hit." Larian DM doesn't even have him roll to jump. He doesn't really measure things out. That takes too much time. He wants faster paced gaming to focus on story. So he just agrees yo Gale jumping behind a goblin and attacking. "Can I use a potion?" Gale asks. "Sure," says Larian DM. He doesn't want Gale to get even close to dying, because he is focused more on story, not on the finer details of the combat.

So Solasta DM is more like a board game. Larian DM is more like a choose your own adventure DM who isn't so much about the board.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol. I was really just trying to say that it is definitely not a board game because it can be played completely without a board. I know you can play with a board, but it is totally not dependent upon a board.

...

So Solasta DM is more like a board game. Larian DM is more like a choose your own adventure DM who isn't so much about the board.

But there is a board. The visuals of the game is board and that is why it is ridiculous to see jump to backstab. So the latter if your example does not work in a game like this. If this was a text game, sure it would work.

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Originally Posted by PolyHeister
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol. I was really just trying to say that it is definitely not a board game because it can be played completely without a board. I know you can play with a board, but it is totally not dependent upon a board.

...

So Solasta DM is more like a board game. Larian DM is more like a choose your own adventure DM who isn't so much about the board.

But there is a board. The visuals of the game is board and that is why it is ridiculous to see jump to backstab. So the latter if your example does not work in a game like this. If this was a text game, sure it would work.
If you took the board away from monopoly, could you still play? Checkers or chess? D&D isn't sold with a board, it's optional. If I go to barnes & nobles, I could get one of the books by it self. Are you going to ever buy checkers with no board?

I really shouldn't have to type that.

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If we're being pedantic, the table top part is optional too. There are online tools like DnD Beyond and Roll 20 that allow you to play over the internet, no tables needed.

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The fact that people are arguing now whether D&D is a board game or not is a clear indication that they don't fully understand what D&D really is. It is a Roleplaying Game, RPG. The name tells you what kind of game it is. Yes, you CAN play it as a board game if you just take the mechanics of combat and you put down a board and pawns and move them from space to space on the board and just fight monsters and so forth. That is certainly one way to play it.

But that's not what the game is supposed to be. It was designed as a game that you play that is a story game. That's how the original was created and that's how it has traditionally been played throughout the decades since it was first created.

Again, the name says it all. You are meant to play the game by taking on the role of a character. You are supposed to pretend to be that character in a fantasy world setting. You are kind of like an actor/actress, pretending to be this whole different person. The DM is like the story teller and director of the ad-lib play. He guides you through the story, pretends to be the other characters, and so forth. Shoot, in the old days, people used to play the game by dressing up and actually BEING the characters out in the woods and such. I still remember Gen-Con when people would dress up as D&D characters and play together at tables. Yes, they used to sell tabletop/board game type stuff to set up huge maps and displays to create better visuals, but ultimately those were just to enhance gameplay.

But the game is designed so that you have scenes where you do lots of talking and interacting and then lots of scenes where you fight and kill things. Only the killing things scenes would maybe get a board if you want it. Otherwise, you don't really need a board for the talking scenes. Again. You can have one. I used to do that all the time with my players. But, in the end, unless you can constantly change up the board quickly, or you've spent a long time laying out some complex board with lots of locations, it slows the game down a lot to use maps and boards. I tried using electronic maps and such, which is okay, but even that can get tedious.

Why are we even having this discussion about what type of game it is anyway? I thought this thread was about BG3 needing to be more like Solasta with its game mechanics. Who cares what type of game it is? Maybe I missed something in the threads. They're all starting to blend now, so maybe I thought I read this thread through but I didn't.

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Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Faerun is a fake place built over years by one guy from his own campaign. WotC uses it as its default D&D setting and as such has to make it generic with many fantasy tropes. It’s going to be broken and lots of inconsistencies. Heck they pretty much tossed out the last 100 years because 4e bombed and they had to recon everything. The game dictates how the setting works which creates these problems. Look at the utter brokenness of the Warcraft story.
Which is my point, it's not a realistic or consistent fantasy setting. It is not even that original, considering they have initially borrowed from Tolkien and only backtracked on that because of a possible lawsuit.

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So why are you saying all this? Why are you picking on the story and world and game?

And if you play fantasy games at all, who hasn't ripped off Tolkien, btw?

But seriously, why are you even out here playing a Faerun game if you don't like Faerun? Why are you playing a game where they said it is a D&D game if you don't like D&D? I'm just not following.

It's like you're playing a star wars game and picking on it because it is star wars.

How is any of this related to making BG3 better and BG3 could benefit by being more true to 5e?

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Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by PolyHeister
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol. I was really just trying to say that it is definitely not a board game because it can be played completely without a board. I know you can play with a board, but it is totally not dependent upon a board.

...

So Solasta DM is more like a board game. Larian DM is more like a choose your own adventure DM who isn't so much about the board.

But there is a board. The visuals of the game is board and that is why it is ridiculous to see jump to backstab. So the latter if your example does not work in a game like this. If this was a text game, sure it would work.
If you took the board away from monopoly, could you still play? Checkers or chess? D&D isn't sold with a board, it's optional. If I go to barnes & nobles, I could get one of the books by it self. Are you going to ever buy checkers with no board?

I really shouldn't have to type that.
You could play monopoly without a board, yes. Keeping track of where players are on the "board" mentally is not very difficult and if you need a visual aid you could easily abstract parts of the board using pen and paper. There are far more things to keep track of in D&D than in monopoly, if you can play D&D without a board, you can also play monopoly without a board. This isn't just me being a pedant, when I was a kid I actually used to do things like play monopoly with friends using a pen and paper to keep track, because it wasn't easy to smuggle a board between lessons to play but it was very easy to hide scraps of paper.

The difference between the 2 lies solely in how they are sold, monopoly is sold as a board with rules, D&D is sold as a set of rules, of which you can optionally add visual aids, some of which include a board. Neither game actually requires a board, all you need to know is the rules.

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I'm gonna chime in and say that first that yeah, if I had to pick I would like BG3 to be as loyal as Solasta because I quire like the 5e system when translated into a video game.

That being said, I think the issue is deeper than that. I personally am not married to 5e as a system and can take it or leave it for the most part, it's far from my favorite system. More than anything, I think that the changes that Larian has made just...don't really work great. They feel clunky and off and counter-intuitive at times. That's not because 5e can't be changed at all without breaking it, but because the changes that have been made aren't really compatible with the system.

To give you another example, there was a game called Torment: Tides of Numemenra, released several years ago. That was based on something called the Cypher system. I love that system and I love the game, even though the game had to make changes to the system, since it was a more story-focused system that doesn't translate well to a rigid video game. The changes worked there because they felt natural and the rest of the mechanics around those changes mixed well with it. On the other hand, BG3's changes feel like they were added in without a lot of thought for how they're going to interact with other mechanics. Which isn't great.

So while my personal vote would be to make the mechanics more loyal to 5e, ultimately I care more that they just pick a single lane, rather than this half-baked product we have.

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Again, why are we debating this? What does it have to do with BG3 and Solasta?

And again, the two are TOTALLY different. In Monopoly, you roll dice, move your pieces around a static board loop. In an RPG like D&D, you create a person, pretend to be that person, travel through a fantasy world built by your imagination. You are literally only limited by your imagination.

Let's face it. D&D is like kids playing in a backyard pretending to be knights fighting dragons and monsters except they use dice to see if they hit the bad guys instead of just saying they hit them, and typically they don't swing swords at invisible monsters. Like it or not, D&D is like Adult Let's Pretend.

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