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Originally Posted by Adiktus
Now, try to imagine the viewpoint of someone who knows neither 5E, nor Divinity: Original Sin. (I know, picturing what happens in other people's heads is hard.)

What do you think they think of the game? Do they think it's a mess?

My friend has played neither. Granted, he had me there to explain the rules to him. I've never play DOS, but I know 5e, and Baldurs Gate is enough like 5e that I could explain pretty much everything to him. He understands.

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Originally Posted by Adiktus
Now, try to imagine the viewpoint of someone who knows neither 5E, nor Divinity: Original Sin. (I know, picturing what happens in other people's heads is hard.)

What do you think they think of the game? Do they think it's a mess?

It's not very difficult, my friends never played DOS or DnD. They all really enjoyed EA access BG3. The main thing is that this was their first game with tactical pause mechanics. I think they were interested because it was visually different from the others games like this. Before that, they played games like Dragon Age and The Witcher. First, they were attracted to visual part, then story, characters and gameplay. They didn't care about DnD rules. To be honest, I also do not know which "skills" are correct, and which are not. I've only studied lore, world, races, and things like that.

I believe that there are many people like me.


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Originally Posted by Adiktus
Now, try to imagine the viewpoint of someone who knows neither 5E, nor Divinity: Original Sin. (I know, picturing what happens in other people's heads is hard.)

What do you think they think of the game? Do they think it's a mess?
I played Patch 2 BG3 with a friend who had never played anything D&D or DOS before. Their favorite part of the game was Shoving enemies off high ground (distinct from shoving into pits) which has made me reconsider my opinions on the necessity of turning it back into an action.

Overall, my friend enjoyed the game with 2 big caveats:
- Conversations are currently almost entirely a one-person experience. Only 1 of the players gets to participate in the conversation and the game doesn't actually tell any other players what dialogue option was chosen. So it was boring and confusing for me as player 2. Currently, BG3 is only really multiplayer for combat and deciding where to go next.
- The game doesn't properly explain its mechanics. I, who was familiar with both 5e and BG3 via my first playthrough, had to explain a lot of things that the tutorial/tool-tips/codex really should explain in-game.

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If only Bg3 has Solasta Combat, I will buy it for 120 bucks.
But now? Pffffffft
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Originally Posted by Nyloth
I'm in this thread only to say even now, on EA stage, I believe that BG3 is better than Pathfinder.
#metoo

Still could be even better tho. :P

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 24/04/21 07:57 AM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Adiktus
Now, try to imagine the viewpoint of someone who knows neither 5E, nor Divinity: Original Sin. (I know, picturing what happens in other people's heads is hard.)

What do you think they think of the game? Do they think it's a mess?

I've seen this discussion come up a lot here and as a perpetual lurker I have honestly been afraid to get involved. These are just my thoughts on the game and my experience playing with my friend who has more DnD experience than I do.

I'm what I would call a beginner DnD player but also a lore nerd. I'm a few sessions into a short campaign and have really enjoyed it, but the parts I care most about are RP, world building, and lore. I'll spend hours reading about a world and characters much more than crunching any numbers or worrying about the perfect build. I still need help with when to roll which dice, what all the spells do, and what everything means in a tabletop setting. The DnD game I play apparently has some homebrew and I personally see no problem with homebrew. I don't much care for strictness as long as I'm enjoying myself. I think playing BG3 has helped me understand how DnD works better. I'm NOT saying that it's taught me to play DnD, because after seeing the complaints here I know that I'm getting a Larian homebrew, but rather now I can better visualize different spells and how to use things like perception checks and stuff... please don't hurt me forum people! BG3 has actually made me more excited to play tabletop DnD, which I would hope is what people want?

So needless to say I've had a great time. I've never played any DOS games. I think BG3 is fun. I don't think it's a mess, nor do I think combat is a mess. I've had times where I questioned certain things in combat or found it buggy, but I think this will improve. There are some things I think should be changed like disengage, shove, and high ground advantage, for example, but my overall assessment is that I love it and have high hopes for it.

I also did a full multiplayer playthrough with a friend who has played a lot of DnD 5e both as a player and as a DM. They lean more towards having a good build than worrying about lore and also have more experience with these types of games than I do (but I know they haven't played DOS). They enjoyed the game and we had a lot of fun on our playthrough. They did have times where they were like "that's different" or "it's usually this way" or "oof that's annoying, hope they fix that", but also found things like high ground advantage that they thought were cool, even if they need to be tweaked, and we talked about how that could be incorporated as a cool homebrew mechanic. Overall they liked the game and intend to play it when it comes out in full.

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Bought BG3 out of incredible excitement, played it for 15 hours, waited over 6 months to see how patches would evolve, now uninstalled it. Bastard child of DOS2 with sprinkled D&D here and there. Bravo to Larian, they got their demographics right on point. The game will sell. Its great fun for the modern <<<RPG>>> crowd.

Playing Solasta LOVE the D&D combat, but thats about it. Uninstalled it.

Played a bit of Pathfinder Wrath of the rigtheous in beta...In my eyes it has the most potential!

Oh well, back playing original BG2, Planescape: torment, Arcanum and Wizardy 8 for the xxxth time...

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 24/04/21 02:08 PM.
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Oh the usual "if it doesn't exactly fit my own personal point of view about what dnd is then I don't accept it".

I love the game. It has dragons, it has dungeons. By pure logic this is a dungeons and dragons game. It doesn't follow any edition of the rules by Wizards of the coast? Who cares. I use those when I play in real life around a table.

Nevertheless as the click baiting title of the thread stats I'll wait for the full version of the game. Just because I already now all the map, all the secrets, and so on, so to me it has lost appeal even if there are new classes added, I hope in the next patch they add new areas, that way the fact that I have to recreate a new character because of save incompatibilities won't be a burden.

I wish they could be able to accelerate the development now that vaccines for covid 19 are somministred.

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I still have extremely high hopes for this game. If they do listen to people and adjust things, this game could probably be the best RPG of all time. That's how I feel. <3
I certainly hope I am right >_<

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My thoughts on the games:

BG3: Love it so far! Can't wait for the next patch.

Solasta: Not interested. It looks like it is all about the rules and little else.

Pathfinder: Didn't play the first game, which is infamous for its timed quests! But from what I can see Wrath of the Righteous doesn't have timed quests, yay! I will likely give it a try when it comes out.

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I'll go ahead and ask the question. Has there ever been a pure implementation of D&D as a video game? If so, is the argument to have an updated version of that game as the template for BG3? From where I'm sitting the only games I'm hearing mentioned to compare against BG3 are not pure renderings of the ruleset. But they are FUN for an average player to pick up and play, and might send new people down the path to tabletop gaming with a basic familiarity of the game. I'm willing to accept some compromises if it helps tell a story in the way that Larian has proven they can. At the end of the day, I think that's what will keep players coming back.


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Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by Tabuk
You know the title of this game is not "Dungeons and Dragons 5e, The Video Game" right?

It is Baldurs gate 3. A video game that used Dungeons and Dragons as a guideline or is inspired by D&D.

Lol...no....Not accoridng to Swen Vincke/Larian:

BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions.
(Swen Vincke)
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/larian-interview

We started by taking the ruleset that's in the Player's Handbook. We ported it as faithfully as we could, then there were some number of things that we saw that doesn't work that well, and so we started looking for solutions to do that. The hardest part—and this is the most interesting part also about it, because there's a lot of stuff from the rules that actually ports quite well, so—but the most interesting part is the role of the Dungeon Master...(Swen Vincke)
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...-turn-based-rpgs-and-dreams-coming-true/

But in terms of actual systems, it’s Fifth Edition D&D through and through. And we’ve changed some things, because it’s a different medium, so you can’t just be like, ‘let’s just take all the rules of a tabletop game and put it into a video game.’ It just doesn’t work. So there are a few things that change, but fundamentally it is D&D. It’s built on Fifth Edition. (Adam SMith)
https://www.vg247.com/2020/02/27/baldurs-gate-3-dungeons-and-dragons/

Neither you, nor Swen should be surprised that people are upset at his dishonesty in how he described BG3, and the process of adapting 5e rules to the game, since it's painfully obvious that Larian started with DOS, and then attempted to graft on 5e, and what we have in EA, is a mess.

Interesting read, that confirms what the poster you're telling "No" stated. Anyone looking for a 1 to 1 conversion is going to be disappointed. But that's fine, we're all entitled to our own expectations.

To the OP, good on you. It's fine to wait for full release, if that's what you want to do, it was even suggested for those that may have thought they'd get a completely polished experience from EA.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Originally Posted by Tabuk
You know the title of this game is not "Dungeons and Dragons 5e, The Video Game" right?

It is Baldurs gate 3. A video game that used Dungeons and Dragons as a guideline or is inspired by D&D.

Lol...no....Not accoridng to Swen Vincke/Larian:

BG3 is based on the fifth edition [of D&D]. We started by setting out the ruleset very meticulously, and then seeing what worked and what didn’t work – because it is a videogame, and D&D was made to play as a tabletop game. So for the things that didn’t work, we came up with solutions.
(Swen Vincke)
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/larian-interview

We started by taking the ruleset that's in the Player's Handbook. We ported it as faithfully as we could, then there were some number of things that we saw that doesn't work that well, and so we started looking for solutions to do that. The hardest part—and this is the most interesting part also about it, because there's a lot of stuff from the rules that actually ports quite well, so—but the most interesting part is the role of the Dungeon Master...(Swen Vincke)
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...-turn-based-rpgs-and-dreams-coming-true/

But in terms of actual systems, it’s Fifth Edition D&D through and through. And we’ve changed some things, because it’s a different medium, so you can’t just be like, ‘let’s just take all the rules of a tabletop game and put it into a video game.’ It just doesn’t work. So there are a few things that change, but fundamentally it is D&D. It’s built on Fifth Edition. (Adam SMith)
https://www.vg247.com/2020/02/27/baldurs-gate-3-dungeons-and-dragons/

Neither you, nor Swen should be surprised that people are upset at his dishonesty in how he described BG3, and the process of adapting 5e rules to the game, since it's painfully obvious that Larian started with DOS, and then attempted to graft on 5e, and what we have in EA, is a mess.

Interesting read, that confirms what the poster you're telling "No" stated. Anyone looking for a 1 to 1 conversion is going to be disappointed. But that's fine, we're all entitled to our own expectations.

Well said. Anyone who reads that and expects pure D&D from Baldur's Gate 3 is an idiot.

There are changes to the mechanics, just like they said, and there are some oversights, like the importance of long rests. If these things bother you, feel free to say so. It's what everyone else is doing. It's what I do.

And maybe there are some quotes I'm not aware of. But if all we have to go on are the quotes above, you cannot reasonably say that Swen is wrong or lied about what they were delivering. Anyone perception that they have comes from your own assumptions of what a D&D game should and shouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Icelyn
Pathfinder: Didn't play the first game, which is infamous for its timed quests! But from what I can see Wrath of the Righteous doesn't have timed quests, yay! I will likely give it a try when it comes out.
God, I hope you are wrong.
Did anyone just give up on designing a good game with interesting mechanics these days?


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Interesting read, that confirms what the poster you're telling "No" stated. Anyone looking for a 1 to 1 conversion is going to be disappointed. But that's fine, we're all entitled to our own expectations.

To the OP, good on you. It's fine to wait for full release, if that's what you want to do, it was even suggested for those that may have thought they'd get a completely polished experience from EA.

Where did I say that I expected a 1 to 1 conversion? The poster that I was responding to, said that Larian was just using 5e as a "guideline" or "inspiration", and that's clearly not what Swen/Larian said when asked about how much of the 5th edition ruleset would be included.

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Originally Posted by footface
Well said. Anyone who reads that and expects pure D&D from Baldur's Gate 3 is an idiot.

There are changes to the mechanics, just like they said, and there are some oversights, like the importance of long rests. If these things bother you, feel free to say so. It's what everyone else is doing. It's what I do.

And maybe there are some quotes I'm not aware of. But if all we have to go on are the quotes above, you cannot reasonably say that Swen is wrong or lied about what they were delivering. Anyone perception that they have comes from your own assumptions of what a D&D game should and shouldn't be.

Where did I state that I expected "pure D&D"?

What I expected, was for Larian to do what they said they were doing, and start with adapting 5th edition, and make changes where necessary, not start with DOS, and add on a little 5e as lip service, which is what BG3 is in its current state.

I can 100% say that Swen was not truthful when he said that they adapted the PHB, because that is a demonstrably false statement.

Last edited by Grudgebearer; 24/04/21 06:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tuco
God, I hope you are wrong.
That was just the impression I got from reading about it. I haven't played it (the beta was really expensive for a series I have never played).

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Pathfinder: Didn't play the first game, which is infamous for its timed quests! But from what I can see Wrath of the Righteous doesn't have timed quests, yay! I will likely give it a try when it comes out.
God, I hope you are wrong.
Did anyone just give up on designing a good game with interesting mechanics these days?

Unfortunately, its wrong. Owlcat again made their favorite "time limits", but now they are even worse, cuz it's a punishment. Do you think it's fun? Players of the beta version were so annoyed by this that they were looking for a way or bug that would help to cancel 'curse' effect which appeared after camp rest..

The Pathfinder mechanics have never been suitable for average player who wants to enjoy the game, rather than overcome and tryhard. And now they did it again. They made everything even more difficult than in Kingmaker. I'm glad you like it, but actually this kind of gameplay is not made for a large audience. This is for a narrow circle of fans of really difficult games.


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Originally Posted by Grudgebearer
Where did I state that I expected "pure D&D"?

What I expected, was for Larian to do what they said they were doing, and start with adapting 5th edition, and make changes where necessary, not start with DOS, and add on a little 5e as lip service, which is what BG3 is in its current state.

Add a LITTLE 5e as lip service? How is it that I'm able to explain just about EVERY mechanic in BG3 to my friend, using nothing more than my knowledge of 5e? Seems like more than a little to me. Guess it's a matter of expectation.

As for them plugging the rules into DOS. Never played DOS, but it must be a lot like 5e, if what you're saying is true. The fact that they did this doesn't contradict anything they said, so there you have it.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
Unfortunately, its wrong. Owlcat again made their favorite "time limits", but now they are even worse, cuz it's a punishment. Do you think it's fun? Players of the beta version were so annoyed by this that they were looking for a way or bug that would help to cancel 'curse' effect which appeared after camp rest.
Thanks for the heads up about it having timed quests! I will take that game off my list.

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