Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Sep 2017
G
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
G
Joined: Sep 2017
This is the core DnD mechanics. What you want is DOS III.

And the thing is, Larian has already made it much easier for spells and melee attacks to hit with broken homebrew.

Joined: Sep 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
I'm paraphrasing/selecting representative samples of your post; I think this is a fair summary?
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
... Spells are disinteresting, boring, they feel like I'm chucking a wet lettuce rather than a fireball and that's a moot point since the majority of the time I miss anyway, or I'm put to sleep, or I'm instantly killed by a single spell or ability...

DAO and DOS have mana/cooldown systems but BG3 has a longresting spellcasting system. BG3 spells feel both weaker and more limited than spells in DAO/DOS.

Arcane recovery ...why would I bother using that when a full rest will regenerate all my spells? I'm essentially saying that you need the ability to regenerate the spells in combat, not just out of combat. Spellcasting - and I don't just means Wizards - in this game is not fit for purpose
These things are ~fair criticisms. As others have said, spellcasters are relatively weak at early levels, but get many more spell slots at higher levels (Wizards have ~10 spell slots at level 6, which is more than enough for a single combat). But, being more versatile at later levels doesn't necessarily justify having early levels be un-fun. To this, I reply that low-level spellcasters are at their best when using utility and/or long-lasting spells (buff allies, debuff enemies, escape from melee attackers, mage armor). However, Larian's changes to 5e have made buff/debuff/concentration spells much less useful, turning tactical-utility-spellcasters into inefficient blasters. Particularly the increase to goblin HP has made spells feel less effective even if they hit.

I'd recommend trying to change your perception of (low-level) BG3 spellcasters from DOS/DAO powerhouses to what they are in BG3: cantrip-casters that occasionally use the more powerful spell, usually to finish off an enemy, buff/debuff, deal AoE, or escape from danger. In PnP 5e, low-level spellcasters cast 1 or 2 leveled spells per combat. Long-lasting spells are often the better choice, that is if you can retain concentration. Also, make use of scrolls! These will significantly extend your wizard's ability to be useful in combat.

Arcane Recovery: Yes that is a good question. This is an effect of Larian's decision to allow unlimited resting, which makes short-rest recharging abilities basically worthless. It is unclear if Larian is going to make further changes to the system. Currently, the only reason to short rest/limit your long rests is for roleplaying/immersion's sake. But doing this you're penalized by missing out on camp cutscenes.

Joined: Apr 2021
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Apr 2021
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
As an addendum to the complaint of what is BS combat system, here's a situation that to my mind proves the numbers of bunk. Fighting a bugbear, I have an 80% chance to hit. That's an 8/10 chance to hit. I missed four times. That's a 4/10 or 60% chance to hit, not 80%. I don't want this thread descending into solely a Spell casting thread, it's about all combat being unfit for purpose.

That's what luck is, you will hit %5 shots sometimes and miss 95 or even 99% shots in xcom. People complained about that in xcom 2 as well. Then it turned out that difficulty levels below commander has rigged rng benefiting the player not the AI. Only commander and legend was untouched.

Rng style of turn based combats feel bad for some people and some people learn to like it. I like this style of game because it is not about "I will solve this puzzle and I am done." Games with dice rolls or %s is about mitigating risks, you shouldn't leave yourself open to attacks if you dont land that attack. Or if you do, accepting the risk it brings.

Honestly I like both, at the end of the day they are both puzzles. Games with dice to me are more of a wild puzzle, things can go wrong or even if you do everything right you can just get critted by enemy sheer bs luck. But sometimes you crit by sheer luck when you least expect it and it feels just right.

Last edited by PolyHeister; 11/05/21 04:36 PM.
Joined: Jun 2019
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Jun 2019
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I'm paraphrasing/selecting representative samples of your post; I think this is a fair summary?

These things are ~fair criticisms. As others have said, spellcasters are relatively weak at early levels, but get many more spell slots at higher levels (Wizards have ~10 spell slots at level 6, which is more than enough for a single combat). But, being more versatile at later levels doesn't necessarily justify having early levels be un-fun. To this, I reply that low-level spellcasters are at their best when using utility and/or long-lasting spells (buff allies, debuff enemies, escape from melee attackers, mage armor). However, Larian's changes to 5e have made buff/debuff/concentration spells much less useful, turning tactical-utility-spellcasters into inefficient blasters. Particularly the increase to goblin HP has made spells feel less effective even if they hit.

I don't think you get it. It's the system I'm criticising, not the specific number of slots, and as I said, I used the Divinity and Dragon Age franchises because they used systems that were not only different to BG3's but to each other's, demonstrating that there are superior systems one might use. I also linked to the spell list for BG2 which has far more low level spells than BG3 does for some reason. Better to put a cooldown on the spells rather than a limitation on how often they can be cast. Better it takes six turns before I can cast Witch Bolt again than be limited to casting it twice in a fight, as an example. People can accuse me of wanting DOS2 combat but it's not just DOS2, I've never played a game that had such a hard cap on spell casting.

You also have the perfect storm of hit chance being poor, and them not doing a lot of damage when they do hit. A Bow might do less damage than Witch Bolt, for example, but there's no hard limit on how often I can use it, so why would I bring a Wizard over a Rogue? Sure I can revert to Ray of Frost but I can't pin down a target with that, only slow them down and in my experience, Crossbows have superior accuracy for the same damage. Nor can I dip a spell, but I can a weapon thereby enhancing the damage it does. A Rogue is also less squishy than a Mage and because of the idiotic way they've implemented Sleep, a Mage is guaranteed to go out like a light, 100% of the time, when in contrast there are many low level NPC characters that are immune to the same spell. Due to the hard limit placed on spellcasting, there is no upside to having a Wizard in your party.

In short, get rid of the hard cap on the number of times a spell can be cast and replace it with a cooldown. If that means 'DOS3' then so be it. Better a fun game set in the D&D universe than a boring game that's a D&D adherent. At the very least the Wizard class needs to be rebalanced so low level Wizards aren't so underwhelming; and please, can we stop focusing on this single aspect of combat. Combat as a whole, is currently unbalanced to the point of being broken.

Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I'm paraphrasing/selecting representative samples of your post; I think this is a fair summary?

These things are ~fair criticisms. As others have said, spellcasters are relatively weak at early levels, but get many more spell slots at higher levels (Wizards have ~10 spell slots at level 6, which is more than enough for a single combat). But, being more versatile at later levels doesn't necessarily justify having early levels be un-fun. To this, I reply that low-level spellcasters are at their best when using utility and/or long-lasting spells (buff allies, debuff enemies, escape from melee attackers, mage armor). However, Larian's changes to 5e have made buff/debuff/concentration spells much less useful, turning tactical-utility-spellcasters into inefficient blasters. Particularly the increase to goblin HP has made spells feel less effective even if they hit.

I've never played a game that had such a hard cap on spell casting.

You also have the perfect storm of hit chance being poor, and them not doing a lot of damage when they do hit. A Bow might do less damage than Witch Bolt, for example, but there's no hard limit on how often I can use it, so why would I bring a Wizard over a Rogue? Sure I can revert to Ray of Frost but I can't pin down a target with that, only slow them down and in my experience, Crossbows have superior accuracy for the same damage. Nor can I dip a spell, but I can a weapon thereby enhancing the damage it does. A Rogue is also less squishy than a Mage and because of the idiotic way they've implemented Sleep, a Mage is guaranteed to go out like a light, 100% of the time, when in contrast there are many low level NPC characters that are immune to the same spell. Due to the hard limit placed on spellcasting, there is no upside to having a Wizard in your party.

In short, get rid of the hard cap on the number of times a spell can be cast and replace it with a cooldown. If that means 'DOS3' then so be it. Better a fun game set in the D&D universe than a boring game that's a D&D adherent. At the very least the Wizard class needs to be rebalanced so low level Wizards aren't so underwhelming; and please, can we stop focusing on this single aspect of combat. Combat as a whole, is currently unbalanced to the point of being broken.

Crossbow doesn't have a better accuracy than cantrips if your characters are well builded.
Firebolt is 1D10, close to the heavier crossbow (same base but you'll add a modifier with the crossbow).
At level 5 Firebolt is 2D10, 3D10 at level 11 and 4D10 at level 17.

You're right about dipping, which is a new horrible, unbalanced and OP mechanic added by Larian.

Your caster is way more versatile and can control, attack, react, protect in many ways. BG3 lack of spells for now and reactions are badly implemented for now but a caster has many many PRO.
You talked about Feather fall... This is NOT supposed to be a spell you cast before an encounter. It's a spell you may choose to cast as a reaction IF someone is pushed in a hole, spending a spellslot to avoid damages on a companion.

Your caster has attacks that can make way more damages than your non casters characters especially when he reach level 5 (spells level 3).

Are you really reading what's said ? You're stuck with level 2 spells for now and you already have many spells that can deal more damages than your ranged/melee weapons.
At level 5, which non-caster will be able to throw a fireball to deal 8D6 to any creatures in an area of effect ? (answer : anyone that has a scroll in BG3, that's another Larian rule, or bug... idk).

No offense but It really looks like you - "think you know what D&D is" - "assume D&D is a bad system in video games" - because you played BG3 but BG3's combats are a cheap representation of D&D's combats. I even don't understand your problem with spellslots : in this game you can just spam rest to recover everything. At the moment it's like DoS but without any cooldown...

I guess you never played any other crpg or tactical TB games except DoS before ?
There are tons of (legendary) games that uses the "spellslot" concept and there are many (great) tactical TB games that use something else than cooldown or mana.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 11/05/21 07:59 PM.
Joined: Nov 2020
O
OcO Offline
member
Offline
member
O
Joined: Nov 2020
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
- The AI won't ever jump to avoid fire damages if they're on a fire surface, you will.

I'd like to comment on this portion rq as I feel it may have been tweaked/changed in patch 4. Previous to P4 I had never seen any enemy, other than a goblin, use jump. However during my last 2 playthroughs(both AFTER P4) I've had a few different things start jumping around.

Ogress/Bugbear encounter: I tried having Lazeal and my ranger hold the doorway and the ranger's pet spider filling the interior with webs. First round the Bugbear passed it's save and ran up to Lazeal and started swinging. On its second turn it leaped over Lazeal and the ranger out the doorway to run after Shadowheart who I had in the backfield.

Hag Fight: This was just over the weekend trying out a 3 custom toon party + Lazeal. Here I had 2 different Redcaps use jump, 1 did it 2 turns in a row. I engaged the Hag in her house on one of the back upper floors in the little alcove where I could attempt to trap her in place with Lazeal and Menacing Strike. It worked perfectly and I unloaded on the Hag until the first Redcap got in the house. It ended it's turn halfway from the door to the first set up stairs. I used a ranger's spider to drop a web over the entrance area of the house, basically covering the whole entrance from a few feet in the door to the first set of steps, which enwebbed the Redcap. The next round I finished off the Hag and moved my ranger & Lazeal upstairs to the highest level of the house at the top of the ladder down to the forge area. I left my cleric and druid on the level where the hag died and moved the spider to the center of the next level down(where the smaller ladder is to the entrance overhang area and back patio door). The Redcap jumped out of the web on its turn to the bottom of the entrance stairs then headed right and down the next set of stairs to the forge level headed for the ladder back there. My ranger and Lazeal stayed up where they were and picked it off before it got to them.

The next Redcap that came in ended its turn just inside the house but before the web. I had my spider at the top of the stairs to the level it was on and the spider model is so big I took up the entire top of the stairs. Behind it a bit I placed my cleric and druid on the same level as the spider at the base of the stairs up to where I killed the Hag. On its next turn the Redcap used jump to clear the web entirely and land on the first set of stairs and took a left on the first platform toward the stairs leading up to the spider but ended its turn before reaching the base of the stairs. My cleric and druid were just using crossbows while they waited for it to get closer. On its next turn the Redcap used jump to leap over the spider, up onto our level and come take a swing at my druid both on the same turn.


Idk if that is something special for Redcaps or if Larian is maybe starting to give the AI the same options as PCs.

Last edited by OcO; 11/05/21 09:24 PM.
Joined: May 2021
Location: Helsinki
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: May 2021
Location: Helsinki
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I was likely playing cRPGs before you were born.


Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I've never played a game that had such a hard cap on spell casting.


I guess you need to pick one. Hard cap on spell casting was the norm for most crpgs, especially for the older ones.

Joined: Nov 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
BG1 and BG2 also had pretty hard restrictions on casting as AD&D2 similarly had restrictions on how many times a low level character could cast a day. Sorcerer though was the solution to wanting to outright spam spells, which made Baeloth in EE super fun, but just like in 5e, a Wizard would start off with a very limited list and amount of spells they can cast to steadily snowball into a magic spamming machine with an answer to every problem.

Joined: May 2021
R
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
R
Joined: May 2021
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
It gets ridiculous later on. Once you take out the Goblin bosses, two of which have half a dozen support characters in them, one of which has two but also a patroller minor boss who turns up at the worst time,

Maybe it is because of different options that I chose but when I encounter Priestess Gut she ends up taking me prisoner and then while we are alone and I am being interrogated some dwarf comes up because her and slits her throat and kills her ogre bodyguard. One boss down and I didnt have to do anything. Minthara is all by herself and gets steamrolled. Guiding Bolt, Lae'Zel 2x attk using action surge, My Warlock using Eldritch Blast, Gale using a lvl 2 version of Magic Missile ( garunteed hit ). Draz'gol was the only real fight for me. I just had to make sure that my backs were against walls and when they ( which was not that often ) made the bad decision to position themselves with the spider pit behind them I used a knockback attack to send them to their doom. I am playing all my games Ironman style just to test how far can you get with the different classes and what challenges each face.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
but outside in the Goblin camp there are thirteen - 13! - Gobilns and something bears (sorry, can't remember their name), two of which are spellcasters with one-shot-prone spells, one Worg (minus the summons), and a Troll you have to fight.

Huh.... I have never come across a troll... guess I need to do some more exploring... I know there is an ogre that guards the door to the temple and a couple of hobgoblins.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
If you consider that bad enough then try it with a spell caster who can only access a single rank 2 spell, falls asleep whenever sleep spells hit him, and can only use his ranked spells once in battle, along with melee characters that miss more than they hit. To make matters worse, it's impossible to sneak back in through the main entrance because a Goblin has line of sight covering the path you need to cross to get to the door, and despite searching all over, I couldn't find an alternative.

The encounter is not survivable with the available armour, the only way to do it is an extroinarily long, attractional battle on the bridge, or call in Troll support but given they cost 500 gold a battle, you won't be able to afford them for the three battles you ideally need them for. If your character had better gear, and the game had a viable spell casting system, and you hit more than you missed, you'd still struggle against those odds, and the game has none of that currently.

It does seem silly that you can not just charge in to a Goblin Base full of Goblins and just hack and slash your way to victory like Diablo 3. The fact that we are being forced to use tactics and intelligence is something that needs to be addressed. We should just be able to put our faces on the keyboard and roll it back and forth in every combat scenario.

Ok, I suck at sarcasm.... I for one am enjoying the fact that this game makes you think much like it's tabletop compatriot. Every encounter is beatable unless you try to sprint straight for the Goblin Camp, skipping the Druids entirely, right from the start.

Joined: May 2021
R
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
R
Joined: May 2021
Originally Posted by zamo
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I was likely playing cRPGs before you were born.


Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I've never played a game that had such a hard cap on spell casting.


I guess you need to pick one. Hard cap on spell casting was the norm for most crpgs, especially for the older ones.

Every D&D game setting I know of, table top and PC, as well as those that emulated D&D have a hardcap on spellcasting. Spellcasters trade off being fairly weak at lower levels for being very powerful in later levels. I do not have much experience with 5e but from what I have read and seen it remains true.

Joined: Sep 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by Reckem
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
It gets ridiculous later on. Once you take out the Goblin bosses, two of which have half a dozen support characters in them, one of which has two but also a patroller minor boss who turns up at the worst time,

Maybe it is because of different options that I chose but when I encounter Priestess Gut she ends up taking me prisoner and then while we are alone and I am being interrogated some dwarf comes up because her and slits her throat and kills her ogre bodyguard. One boss down and I didnt have to do anything. Minthara is all by herself and gets steamrolled. Guiding Bolt, Lae'Zel 2x attk using action surge, My Warlock using Eldritch Blast, Gale using a lvl 2 version of Magic Missile ( garunteed hit ). Draz'gol was the only real fight for me. I just had to make sure that my backs were against walls and when they ( which was not that often ) made the bad decision to position themselves with the spider pit behind them I used a knockback attack to send them to their doom. I am playing all my games Ironman style just to test how far can you get with the different classes and what challenges each face.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
but outside in the Goblin camp there are thirteen - 13! - Gobilns and something bears (sorry, can't remember their name), two of which are spellcasters with one-shot-prone spells, one Worg (minus the summons), and a Troll you have to fight.

Huh.... I have never come across a troll... guess I need to do some more exploring... I know there is an ogre that guards the door to the temple and a couple of hobgoblins.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
If you consider that bad enough then try it with a spell caster who can only access a single rank 2 spell, falls asleep whenever sleep spells hit him, and can only use his ranked spells once in battle, along with melee characters that miss more than they hit. To make matters worse, it's impossible to sneak back in through the main entrance because a Goblin has line of sight covering the path you need to cross to get to the door, and despite searching all over, I couldn't find an alternative.

The encounter is not survivable with the available armour, the only way to do it is an extroinarily long, attractional battle on the bridge, or call in Troll support but given they cost 500 gold a battle, you won't be able to afford them for the three battles you ideally need them for. If your character had better gear, and the game had a viable spell casting system, and you hit more than you missed, you'd still struggle against those odds, and the game has none of that currently.

It does seem silly that you can not just charge in to a Goblin Base full of Goblins and just hack and slash your way to victory like Diablo 3. The fact that we are being forced to use tactics and intelligence is something that needs to be addressed. We should just be able to put our faces on the keyboard and roll it back and forth in every combat scenario.

Ok, I suck at sarcasm.... I for one am enjoying the fact that this game makes you think much like it's tabletop compatriot. Every encounter is beatable unless you try to sprint straight for the Goblin Camp, skipping the Druids entirely, right from the start.
For the record, all of these quotes you attributed to me are actually from Chief_Jericho.

I agree with you that having tactics in BG3 is good; I don't want BG3 to be a hack and slash game. In fact, I'd take it even further: not every encounter you find should be beatable. It'd be great if there were some (optional) fights that were too hard when you first encounter them, requiring you to sneak past/otherwise avoid the encounter until you can come back later at a higher level.

The Priestess Gut encounter is the one of the best examples of "fun failure" in BG3 and I would love to see more of it throughout the game.

Joined: Sep 2017
G
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
G
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
But as you said, yes any damage or being shaken awake automatically wakes them, and it only affects 25ish HP so will become ~irrelevant past level 3 or 4. In BG3, I've heard that enemies wake up after a few turns, indicating that they're probably (incorrectly) getting STs each turn to wake up.

Sleep last for 2 combat rounds, unless broken early. After that, enemies will wake up.

Quote
It gets ridiculous later on. Once you take out the Goblin bosses, two of which have half a dozen support characters in them, one of which has two but also a patroller minor boss who turns up at the worst time, but outside in the Goblin camp there are thirteen - 13! - Gobilns and something bears (sorry, can't remember their name), two of which are spellcasters with one-shot-prone spells, one Worg (minus the summons), and a Troll you have to fight.

If you consider that bad enough then try it with a spell caster who can only access a single rank 2 spell, falls asleep whenever sleep spells hit him, and can only use his ranked spells once in battle, along with melee characters that miss more than they hit. To make matters worse, it's impossible to sneak back in through the main entrance because a Goblin has line of sight covering the path you need to cross to get to the door, and despite searching all over, I couldn't find an alternative.

The encounter is not survivable with the available armour, the only way to do it is an extroinarily long, attractional battle on the bridge, or call in Troll support but given they cost 500 gold a battle, you won't be able to afford them for the three battles you ideally need them for. If your character had better gear, and the game had a viable spell casting system, and you hit more than you missed, you'd still struggle against those odds, and the game has none of that currently.

To speak to this from Jericho, this is why Larian added the option of bringing Halsin along with you to join your party as a temporary 5th, to help struggling players defeat the Goblin Stronghold with an overleveled character joining the party.

If you rescue Halsin first and bring him alongside you, the combat should be noticeably easier to manage. Halsin is level 5 with a good Wild Shape that normal players cannot access and lots of spell slots in Elven form.

Joined: May 2021
R
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
R
Joined: May 2021
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I'm talking about this game adhering far too close to D&D rules than is good for a cRPG to be doing. Those rules might work well in a pen and paper setting but they do not work on a PC.

The success and fame of Baldur's gate and Baldur's Gate 2 says you are wrong. You do not become one of the most successful PC games of all time by not working well....

Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I'm talking about my character being able to hit the target more often than not. I'm talking about being able to build my character how I want to build it. If I want to build a tank I should be able to take points out of dexterity and sink them into strength and constitution. I can't.

you can actually.... when creating your hero go to abilities tab and press the minus and the reallocate those pts elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
I'm talking about getting attribute points to spend each level, not once a blue moon. I'm talking about this game having everything that made every cRPG to be released in the last 20 years, great. This game has none of it. In my opinion, if it's released with it's current inability to hit, it will be an abject failure. Oh it'll sell well because the access media will lap it up and gloss over the issues like they always do, but steam hours sunk into this game will be non-existent, steam reviews will pan it. Why? Because no one wants to play a game where you miss most of your time.

so you would rather they totally piss off the vast and large majority of their player base which is all the D&D and BG players by making it a non D&D/BG game....?? THAT would be abject failure....

Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
It adheres to D&D rules at the expense of playability. Those rules might be great in a pen and paper setting, they're lousy for a video game.

It is very playable and has a proven history of being playable by it's many great games.... BG, BG2, NVN and all of it's expansions to name a few....

Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
Another example is sleep spells put Gale to sleep 100% of the time. It never misses. It does with other characters but never fails to put him to sleep. What use is a Wizard who can be put out of the fight in a single hit? It's about my party having bless and hitting a Goblin for 5 damage, then the same Goblin hitting me for 15. With only 28 health that's more than 50% damage in a single hit, and that's the beginning of the round. How is that in any way fun for your average gamer who's never played D&D?

Are you even aware of how the sleep spell works? or spells in D&D in general? The spell has a DC ( difficuty check ) that must me matched or beaten in order to be mitigated or not affected at all. Sleep Spell requires a will save. Will save is Wisdom based. Gale has a horrible Wisdom... 8 I think which actually gives him a negative to Will Saves which makes him more likely to be affected by anything requiring a Will Save. The fact that he is a caster or has high intelligence means absolutely nothing. That is one of the simplest and basic mechanics of D&D that has been in place for a very very long time. And as far as their health.... have you ever played tabletop? They sport an astounding 1D4 HP per level. Depending on your DM there are times when you level up and get an amazing.....1HP.


Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
Exactly my point, the game is not close to being balanced. I know it's Early Access but the balance really shouldn't be so wildly unbalanced. Even with strategy and tactics its unbalanced. I can get behind a character and still only have a 50% chance of hitting it. What? I'm fighting Goblins etc., not Jedi masters.

Again another basic mechanic of D&D that has been around since the very beginning. Defense is simply based on AC ( Armor Class ) which is determined Armor, equipment, magical effects, and dexterity ( their ability to dodge and move quickly and agile ). Matching or beating the AC is the success of dealing a damaging strike. Missing the targeted number means they either dodged your thrust, it clanged off of their shield, you totally whiffed, it glanced off their armor, you stumbled as you tried to strike, etc... However your DM decides to describe it. it's not that Goblins became Jedi Masters, it's you as a young new hero failed to do a damaging attack... not everyone is Darth Maul from the very start.

Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
When it comes to spell casting it's also the fact that it's the number of times you can use the limited in the number of spells you have available doubles the penalties for missing. I get one shot with a lvl 2 spell and if I miss, that's my spell casters power diminished. If I had larger pool of spells or more spell slots or if the game used a mana analogue that could be replenished with potions, like every other RPG in the history of RPGs in video gaming, if the AI didn't hit you so often so hard, harder than you do with a critical, then missing would not be so big a problem. As it stands now, if you miss, it's a problem. A big one.

Again, a very basic mechanic of D&D that has been in place since the very beginning of D&D. So to use an old WoW joke... working as intended.

Joined: Jun 2019
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Jun 2019
60% chance to hit. 10 shots (9 reloads), 10 misses. That's on one character. All other characters ranging from 45% to 60% also have a 100% miss rate. What BS excuse is the next reply going to give me? If this is Larian's idea of fun, give me a refund, I'd rather watch paint dry.

Edit: Addendum: 20 shots (19 reloads), 19 misses. That's not 60% chance to hit, it's 5% chance to hit. The numbers couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Last edited by Chief_Jericho; 13/05/21 11:18 PM.
Joined: May 2021
R
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
R
Joined: May 2021
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
60% chance to hit. 10 shots (9 reloads), 10 misses. That's on one character. All other characters ranging from 45% to 60% also have a 100% miss rate. What BS excuse is the next reply going to give me? If this is Larian's idea of fun, give me a refund, I'd rather watch paint dry.

That sir..... is damn awful RNG.... I have never had that happen to me.... I have had a couple misses in a row but unless it is a very low hit rate I have always at worst had a 1 in 3 hit with same character.

What was the fight? What buff spells did they have active? Gotta give us some details so other players can test this as well to see if it is truly a bug or you just won the bad luck lottery of RNG.

Joined: May 2021
member
Offline
member
Joined: May 2021
It is so interesting to read how differently people approach games, and I assume most of it comes from their frame of reference.

I had a steep learning curve with this game because a) I do not play tabletop and b) my rpg experience is mostly Bioware and CDPR. I literally died in the first room on the mindflayer ship while playing (while also streaming for pals who nearly busted a gut laughing at my stupidity).

However, unlike every other DnD based game I tried but did not finish (because I did not understand the mechanics) or barely scraped thru (like Tryanny and Planescape Torment) --- I found this game MUCH more accessible in terms of figuring out the systems. After about 6 hours of learning how it all works, reading a couple of hours online about different builds for classes, and then going back and restarting to intelligently build my character --- I am now an F'ing GOD in this game.

So much so, that after reading even more and talking with DnD people (and reading a bunch in this server) --- I would very much like to see the system be MORE challenging than it is now (not less).

Ie --- this was DnD with training wheels (endless sleep options, shoves, anyone can heal, ridiculous amounts of movement for rogues, flammable barrels all over, etc). That was all fine and dandy for me ad a newbie. Now I would very much like to see a more challenging version of the game that more rigorously adheres to DnD rule set.

Also --- it made me want to play tabletop -- and revisit some of the old games that I could never wrap my head around before.

Last edited by timebean; 13/05/21 11:41 PM.
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
60% chance to hit. 10 shots (9 reloads), 10 misses. That's on one character. All other characters ranging from 45% to 60% also have a 100% miss rate. What BS excuse is the next reply going to give me? If this is Larian's idea of fun, give me a refund, I'd rather watch paint dry.

Edit: Addendum: 20 shots (19 reloads), 19 misses. That's not 60% chance to hit, it's 5% chance to hit. The numbers couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Can you post your build? Attribute scores and all? This seems very off.

I personally love the challenge level and the need for tactical thinking at all times. I am at 600 hours though and when I started I felt the same way until I realized all the mistakes I was making. Now I can choose any class and play it like a champ. I love situations where things seem dire and there is a real chance of losing but you end up winning due to superior tactics (never cheese).

Also, you should consider joining us on the Discord for Multiplayer. Its a lot more fun and the best way to learn new tactics and effective builds.

https://discord.gg/jeFUyj4E

Last edited by Blackheifer; 14/05/21 01:58 AM.

Blackheifer
Joined: Oct 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
OP. You often refer to NWN. Well, that was a DnD crpg. It used the same dices that every DnD crpg have used. The difference between the NWN franchise and BG3 is that NWN1 was 3rd edition, NWN2 was 3.5 edition and BG3 is using 5th edition ruleset(well, that was the premise anyway...grrr). A lot has changed in DnD since NWN was released. Another big difference is that NWN uses real time with pause and the dice outcomes are only shown in the combat log. You miss plenty of times in those games too, but you don't realize it as your character will keep bashing that thug until he's dead no matter how many turns it takes. NWN also had a hardcap on spells, and unlimited long rest.

Also, with your wish to put in a mana or cooldown system instead, like every diablo clone out there you seem to enjoy action oriented rpg's more than tactical ones wich tells me that a turn based crpg based on 5e DnD ruleset is not something you would enjoy very much. But that is exactly what Larian Studio and Wotc has promised to give us with BG3.

Their divinity franchise, especially DOS 1&2 are great games, but they are not DnD. This is Larians chance to show us players that they are not a one trick pony and their opportunity to broaden their portfolio with another great line of games that are different from DOS. So give them a chance ok smile I agree with you that they have an enormous amount of balancing to do before release, a big part of that because they decided to spice up the core gameplay with their own idea of tactical choices(aka barrelmancy and emphasis on height advantage) but even though I'm in the camp that wishes for a truer DnD experience I still think they have future diamond in the making here.

Last edited by PrivateRaccoon; 15/05/21 03:06 AM.
Joined: Jun 2019
member
OP Offline
member
Joined: Jun 2019
Originally Posted by timebean
I would very much like to see the system be MORE challenging than it is now (not less).

The issue isn't that it's challenging, the issue is the inconsistency. That you can have bless, be on high ground, still only have a 60% chance to hit and still end up missing whilst the AI misses once a blue moon. The issue is with the numbers being incorrectly displayed. With having an 60% chance and missing 19 times out of 20 which is in actual fact 5% chance to hit. That's not a question of challenging, if they say the game is all about positioning, buffs and debuffs, you use all of those and you still miss then there' s a problem with the game communicating what's going on with you the player. Combat in this game as it stands right now in EA involves my sitting there constantly reloading so that at least one party member hits in that round, only for the game to crash, and then what feels like an take an hour to reload. There is no fun to be had in such a system.

Originally Posted by Blackheifer
[color:#3333FF]Can you post your build? Attribute scores and all? This seems very off.

No because it happens on all characters regardless of class or gear or level. I've done extensive testing. I've been hammering the hell out of the combat system to test if it was just me and it's not. There is a disconnect between what the AI's percentage of hits are and what the players is, a disconnect so great that this game is going to be a critical failure if it launches with it. As I put in my last reply, the game tells me it's a 60% chance to hit but thorough testing proves those numbers are bunk and the combat system's code needs looking at to find out why those numbers are bunk. It isn't an isolated incident, in most rounds you will have two or three characters miss, something that's almost unheared of for the AI no matter what buffs your party has.

In one fight earlier today the enemy was lying prone, had Bane and true strike on it, my party had bless and was on an elevated platform two level above it and still it only had a 60% chance to hit, yet not a single character could hit it with a bow, despite that character being inside the bow's primary range no matter how many times I reloaded the game. They had a 100% failure rate. I got fed up in the end and stopped reloading. Even if the numbers are bunk, unless something is blocking your shot a 100% failure rate is a statistically impossibility. I'm going to repeat myself. I'm doing thorough combat testing. Reloading each time there's a miss to calculate the true odds of hitting and those true odds are appallingly low, and most certainly not what is being displayed on screen.

Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
OP. You often refer to NWN. Well, that was a DnD crpg. It used the same dices that every DnD crpg have used. The difference between the NWN franchise and BG3 is that NWN1 was 3rd edition, NWN2 was 3.5 edition and BG3 is using 5th edition ruleset(well, that was the premise anyway...grrr). A lot has changed in DnD since NWN was released.

All of which is entirely irrelevant because the problem is systemic, not one of rules not making sense. There's nothing in D&D as far as I know that says a 60% chance to hit something is in reality a 5% chance to hit it. That's not a rule issue, it's an algorithmic issue.

Last edited by Chief_Jericho; 15/05/21 09:34 PM.
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
There's really something you're making wrong.
With advantage and so on... 60% is a %to hit you could MAYBE have when you use a weapon you're not proficient with and with a bad modifier.

I'm not talking about the RNG but having "60%" is not normal in the game. I nearly always have more than 60%to hit.

Use weapons your characters are proficient with.
Use strenght weapons if your character have a higher strenght or exterity weapons if its dext is higher.
Don't forget that caster can also increase their %to hit with a good modifier in their casting ability (intelligence for wizards, charisma for warlock,...)

It's not possible to have 60% with advantage if you understand correctly the game's mechanics.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 15/05/21 09:53 PM.
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5