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Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
[color:#3333FF]Can you post your build? Attribute scores and all? This seems very off.

No because it happens on all characters regardless of class or gear or level. I've done extensive testing. I've been hammering the hell out of the combat system to test if it was just me and it's not. There is a disconnect between what the AI's percentage of hits are and what the players is, a disconnect so great that this game is going to be a critical failure if it launches with it. As I put in my last reply, the game tells me it's a 60% chance to hit but thorough testing proves those numbers are bunk and the combat system's code needs looking at to find out why those numbers are bunk. It isn't an isolated incident, in most rounds you will have two or three characters miss, something that's almost unheared of for the AI no matter what buffs your party has.

In one fight earlier today the enemy was lying prone, had Bane and true strike on it, my party had bless and was on an elevated platform two level above it and still it only had a 60% chance to hit, yet not a single character could hit it with a bow, despite that character being inside the bow's primary range no matter how many times I reloaded the game. They had a 100% failure rate. I got fed up in the end and stopped reloading. Even if the numbers are bunk, unless something is blocking your shot a 100% failure rate is a statistically impossibility. I'm going to repeat myself. I'm doing thorough combat testing. Reloading each time there's a miss to calculate the true odds of hitting and those true odds are appallingly low, and most certainly not what is being displayed on screen.

Ok so a few notes. Ranged attack's against a prone individual are made with disadvantage, Bane only affects the targets attack rolls, True strike provides advantage on attack rolls for 1 turn but only to the person who cast the spell, so it cancels the disadvantage for a single person.

Melee attacks against a prone individual are made with advantage and they automatically crit. How did they end up with bane on them? Can you send me a screen grab of your character screen?

Were you inside in darkness or outside? What races were you playing? if inside did everyone have darkvision? What weapons were you using with what classes? Longbows and Heavy xbows are Martial weapons which only certain races/classes are proficient in (but you can still equip them, it doesn't stop you or warn you). Shortbows and Light xbows can be used by everyone.

You should never use True Strike except for very high level spells/attacks with metamagic, see below:



I want to encourage you to come play with us on Multiplayer, again. You are making mistakes or misunderstanding some things, playing with others is super fun and you learn a lot. At this point this game is too easy for me.

https://discord.gg/jeFUyj4E

Last edited by Blackheifer; 15/05/21 10:31 PM.

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On my Fighters and Rogues, attacking from behind usually means I get at least 80% chance to hit. It's the same for ranged characters shooting from high ground. If you're getting 60% even when attacking from behind or from high ground, you're doing something very wrong. Take a picture and link it here, and we might be able to point out where you went wrong.

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Originally Posted by Passerby
On my Fighters and Rogues, attacking from behind usually means I get at least 80% chance to hit. It's the same for ranged characters shooting from high ground. If you're getting 60% even when attacking from behind or from high ground, you're doing something very wrong. Take a picture and link it here, and we might be able to point out where you went wrong.

The same for me, that isn't the issue. The issue is that it isn't 80%, the issue is that it shows you it's 80% but try reloading ten times and see how many of those ten times you actually hit. I assure you, it's not even close to eight times out of ten. That is one of the issues.

The second issue is that the AI has a nigh 100% chance to hit, definitely above 90% no matter what their position is relative to you. That creates a disconnect, i.e. you take damage, the AI does not.

The third issue is that the AI on average hits for more than you do. You might hit an 8, they'll hit a 12, for example. This makes missing all the more problematic because by the time you hit you're close to death.

The forth issue with combat is the spell slot system. I understand the need for something to stop you spamming your most powerful spells but of all the methods I've seen in games down the years, this is the most restrictive.

So you take all these issues together and you have a situation where you miss far more than you miss in other games, but get hit as much as you do in others, which means as a fighter you're taking too much damage too soon, and as a Wizard you burn through your available spell slots, rarely connecting with the target, and the sole way to regenerate all your spell slots is to have a long rest at camp, which you obviously can't do in the middle of a fight.

I want to be clear again, I've been hammering the combat system, getting into fights and trying them with differing tactics and weapons. It has nothing to do with those, the problem is, I believe, algorithmic in nature, i.e. the numbers are off because the AI isn't playing by the same rules as you the player are. In short, all these issues together are creating a combat system that is simply not fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
The issue is that it isn't 80%, the issue is that it shows you it's 80% but try reloading ten times and see how many of those ten times you actually hit. I assure you, it's not even close to eight times out of ten. That is one of the issues.

This is one of my major complaints about the combat system and % chance to hit, it IS very frustrating!!!
As I understand it, 80% chance to hit does not actually mean you will definitely hit the target 8 times out of 10. It means you still have that 20% chance to NOT hit, and it is entirely possible to have an unlucky streak of dice landing in that exact 20% "miss" zone several times. (Sigh, this is usually where I give up on math, because my "math should be fair" logic and actual math probability does not make sense.)


Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
the problem is, I believe, algorithmic in nature, i.e. the numbers are off because the AI isn't playing by the same rules as you the player are. In short, all these issues together are creating a combat system that is simply not fun to play.

This may well be the case, and if so, definitely needs tweaking so the AI rules are the same for both sides. Also, we are limited to level 4 but are the monsters higher level? I don't recall at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Alexandrite
This is one of my major complaints about the combat system and % chance to hit, it IS very frustrating!!!
As I understand it, 80% chance to hit does not actually mean you will definitely hit the target 8 times out of 10. It means you still have that 20% chance to NOT hit, and it is entirely possible to have an unlucky streak of dice landing in that exact 20% "miss" zone several times. (Sigh, this is usually where I give up on math, because my "math should be fair" logic and actual math probability does not make sense.)

Well 20% chance to not hit is still an 80% chance to hit, but I can assure you there is no way in hell it's that low, more like it's inverted. Either way the game isn't communicating with the player very well. For this part it's just a question of tweaking the numbers so you hit more. The spell slot system though needs throwing out the window and a whole new system built for Mages. I've never seen a more appallingly restrictive system for magic use as exists in the game right now.

Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Also, we are limited to level 4 but are the monsters higher level?

Technically everything is capped at level 4, however some enemies feel higher, partly as a result of the issues I've laid out.

Last edited by Chief_Jericho; 16/05/21 12:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
Technically everything is capped at level 4, however some enemies feel higher, partly as a result of the issues I've laid out.

Ahh ok. I thought some of the monsters were actually set to higher levels. I know Halsin is level 5, wasn't sure about other things.

(I haven't played in a week or so - don't want to start a whole new playthrough in case they drop Patch 5 soon. That and I need a break because I'm obsessed enough with this game as it is. lol)

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Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
Technically everything is capped at level 4, however some enemies feel higher, partly as a result of the issues I've laid out.

Ahh ok. I thought some of the monsters were actually set to higher levels. I know Halsin is level 5, wasn't sure about other things.

(I haven't played in a week or so - don't want to start a whole new playthrough in case they drop Patch 5 soon. That and I need a break because I'm obsessed enough with this game as it is. lol)

I know how you feel. The game has the potential to be the best RPG we've seen in years and be a real generational leap for the genre, if they sort out the balance issues with the combat system and fix Mages. As much as I complain about it, there is a lot, lot more I like than dislike about this game.

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Are you playing with or without the weighted dice option? What is you typical companion setup/builds? I want to do a playthrough with same setup and see what results I get. Thus far every playthrough I have done I have had no where near the same RNG as you. I will agree though that Goblins do seem to hit harder than they should.

I will say though that last night I felt the Wrath of the RNG gods. Doing the Harpy fight that I have always always always bulldozed, round one every single Harpy got a Critical hit and I ended the fight with 2 companions dead. In that fight they always have height advantage and do hit me accordingly. I always have disadvantage and should struggle to hit but the only one that really struggles is Shadowheart's Guiding Bolt. Gale gets 100% rating because I use Magic Missile which never misses. What turns the fight around is when they foolishly fly down to me and allow my melee superiority to go berserk.

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Yes loaded dice is on and the persistent missing happens with all characters of all classes with all gear at every point in the game after the prologue. On board the Mind Flayer ship is the only area where the character hits more than they miss, more on par with other RPGs out there. Also bear in mind it's not just me, a lot of others have agreed and stated their own problems, many are saying combat isn't balanced. You don't need builds from me, you just need to get into a fight and then replay the turn nine times to see what out of ten you get and compare that to what you're seeing on screen. If your game says you have an 80% chance to hit and you miss more than twice then you have your answer.

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Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
<snip> If your game says you have an 80% chance to hit and you miss more than twice then you have your answer.
This is not how probability works. It is perfectly possible to miss 3 times in a row with an 80% chance to hit (or 10-20 times with a 60% to hit). Humans are bad at detecting randomness. Especially because we expect hits and are frustrated by misses, so we're so much more likely to remember multiple misses.

The best way to detect if your game's rng is messed up is to record at least 300 (preferably 500+) consecutive rolls. Then perform a statistical test against an expected uniform distribution of rolls to see if your rolls are significantly different from expectation. It is possible something has happened in recent patches (they did just update loaded dice in a recent hotfix), but all previous data has pointed towards the die rolls on average being mostly* consistent with a truly random distribution. *Larian's non-loaded rng is known to streaky, but it streaks both with low- and high-valued rolls. Again, a statistical test where you record hundreds of consecutive rolls is needed.

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Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
Yes loaded dice is on and the persistent missing happens with all characters of all classes with all gear at every point in the game after the prologue. On board the Mind Flayer ship is the only area where the character hits more than they miss, more on par with other RPGs out there. Also bear in mind it's not just me, a lot of others have agreed and stated their own problems, many are saying combat isn't balanced. You don't need builds from me, you just need to get into a fight and then replay the turn nine times to see what out of ten you get and compare that to what you're seeing on screen. If your game says you have an 80% chance to hit and you miss more than twice then you have your answer.

Here are the top ten mistakes I was making when I first started:

1) Using True Strike. OMG what an awful spell.

2) Using the Gloves of the Absolute without the Mark of the Absolute branded into you. This casts Bane on yourself, over and over.

3) Odd attribute levels - like 13, 15, 17. Useless. 17 is the worst. With a few minor exceptions (Warlock + Volo's Eye for example) its a huge waste of points.

4) Using weapons I am not proficient in or not ideal for me. Example: Shadowheart, throw her mace away and give her a dagger/shield and a Light Crossbow.

5) Ending my turn facing away from mobs (you are giving them free advantage on you)

6) Not taking the high ground and holding it or attacking from high ground.

7) Ending my turn with my ranged weapon in hand instead of my shield (if I have one) and melee weapon because 1) you don't get an Attack of Opportunity against another mob that moves past you or away unless you have a melee weapon equipped - and 2) a shield only protects you if you are holding it and not your ranged weapon- there is a little switch that lets you toggle what you are currently holding.

8) Not understanding the Attribute that affects to-hit values the most; for Finesse/ranged weapons Dexterity, For all other weapons - Strength. Cleric spells Wisdom, Wizard Spells Intelligence, Warlock spells Charisma

9) Not stealthily scouting out areas and choosing the best avenue of attack (High ground)

10) Not understanding the importance of
Darkvision in to-hit and who has Darkvision and who does not (Elves, Half Elves, Drow, Dwarves, tieflings have it and Humans, Githyanki*, Halflings do NOT have it) Sunwalkers gift (Ring, Underdark vendor) gives you Darkvision, Warlocks can choose it at 2nd level as an invocation (Devils sight), Wizards cna cast it on themselves or others and it lasts until long rest (No concentration)

*Githyanki are supposed to have it though, not sure why they do not. Edit: Never mind, they changed it in 5E. They just have cat eyes for no reason then.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 17/05/21 09:14 AM.

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Honestly, other than True Strike which is absolutely a Newbie trap in the PnP and here and has dubious use with only certain circumstances favoring it, the rest are the fault of the game either having homebrew that muddles the chance to hit or be hit, and likely needing to convey certain concepts better. As someone who plays D&D a bunch, things like the Ability Scores and and Attributes made sense to me and I read them clearly, but someone not familiar with the systems likely would need more explanation in a much clearer fashion.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, other than True Strike which is absolutely a Newbie trap in the PnP and here and has dubious use with only certain circumstances favoring it, the rest are the fault of the game either having homebrew that muddles the chance to hit or be hit, and likely needing to convey certain concepts better. As someone who plays D&D a bunch, things like the Ability Scores and and Attributes made sense to me and I read them clearly, but someone not familiar with the systems likely would need more explanation in a much clearer fashion.

True, we don't have tooltips in the game yet, or a codex, or anything that really helps new players much or a glossary that trains new players in D&D concepts.

I learned half of these things through trial and error and the other half through playing with other people in Multiplayer. I ended up buying the PHB and devouring it as well.

But Larian provided a challenging experience with some serious depth and I was like "Yes please!" 10/10 would buy again.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Honestly, other than True Strike which is absolutely a Newbie trap in the PnP and here and has dubious use with only certain circumstances favoring it, the rest are the fault of the game either having homebrew that muddles the chance to hit or be hit, and likely needing to convey certain concepts better. As someone who plays D&D a bunch, things like the Ability Scores and and Attributes made sense to me and I read them clearly, but someone not familiar with the systems likely would need more explanation in a much clearer fashion.

True, we don't have tooltips in the game yet, or a codex, or anything that really helps new players much or a glossary that trains new players in D&D concepts.

I learned half of these things through trial and error and the other half through playing with other people in Multiplayer. I ended up buying the PHB and devouring it as well.

But Larian provided a challenging experience with some serious depth and I was like "Yes please!" 10/10 would buy again.

We have some tooltips I think. Or I at least remember a small popup talking about darkvision, but they are not really comprehensive enough and not really clear for newer players IMO. I think someone should have the option to Trial and Error it by turning tutorials off, but a tutorial needs to be made carefully for those who need it. Also I would not mind them just copy pasting the PHB into the game somewhere lol.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
8) Not understanding the Attribute that affects to hit the most for Finesse/ranged weapons Dexterity, For all other weapons - Strength. Cleric spells Wisdom, Wizard Spells Intelligence, Warlock spells Charisma
Importance of the word "spells" its certainly worth mentioning for new players ...
Sometimes you get some spell from magic item, or scroll, or w/e ... Attribute is choosem by spell, not your class. smile

It was kinda sad when i find out that my Warlock cannot efectively use scrolls with Wizard spells since i dumped Intelligence. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
8) Not understanding the Attribute that affects to hit the most for Finesse/ranged weapons Dexterity, For all other weapons - Strength. Cleric spells Wisdom, Wizard Spells Intelligence, Warlock spells Charisma
Importance of the word "spells" its certainly worth mentioning for new players ...
Sometimes you get some spell from magic item, or scroll, or w/e ... Attribute is choosem by spell, not your class. smile

It was kinda sad when i find out that my Warlock cannot efectively use scrolls with Wizard spells since i dumped Intelligence. laugh

Is that how it works in DnD ?
I'm curious.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 17/05/21 10:42 AM.
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No, you can't cast other classes' spells from scroll in DnD.

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Originally Posted by zamo
No, you can't cast other classes' spells from scroll in DnD.

I didn't think about it even if I already read that. Thx for refreshing my memory.

But what about spells from items ?

Last edited by Maximuuus; 17/05/21 03:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
8) Not understanding the Attribute that affects to hit the most for Finesse/ranged weapons Dexterity, For all other weapons - Strength. Cleric spells Wisdom, Wizard Spells Intelligence, Warlock spells Charisma
Importance of the word "spells" its certainly worth mentioning for new players ...
Sometimes you get some spell from magic item, or scroll, or w/e ... Attribute is choosem by spell, not your class. smile

It was kinda sad when i find out that my Warlock cannot efectively use scrolls with Wizard spells since i dumped Intelligence. laugh

You're warlock shouldn't be able to cast any spell from a scroll that isn't in their class spell list.

A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any Material Components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Spell%20Scroll#content

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Good thing i was not talking about how it "should" work ... but about how it "does" work ...
And also that i was not talking about how it "should" work by 5e ... but about how it "does" work in Baldur's Gate 3 ...


Anyway.
Im not quite sure how it works with spell that are in both categories ...
Like scorching ray. O_o


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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