Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Nov 2020
Banned
Offline
Banned
Joined: Nov 2020
Originally Posted by vometia
Knock it off. By all means debate the topic but don't make personal attacks.

"I'm notat all surprised that the wish for a "tough, manly looking characters" was posted by men irst. I never have seen a similar wish by women to have "cosy, femanly looking charascters", so to say. It's always male players who demand first.

And I can very well imagine a "storm" coming from the same male players if there was a woman demanding a "tough looking female" character look.
I mean, the usuual reactions of male players are like this : "Men should look grim, dark, clothed entirely in black, if possible, manly and tough, and women should look like Hello Kitty".
This isn't diversity in looks. It is quite the opposite."

So, for future reference, the above isn't a personal attack?

So, as long as I'm spewing garbage not at a person but at a group of people of a certain characteristic, it's not a personal attack and therefore, acceptable here?

Joined: Sep 2017
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Sep 2017
What she's saying, is to focus on your own opinion and thoughts, and present those. Discuss a discussion on its merits, not your opinion on someone else's opinion. It's also generally a bad idea to spew garbage, no matter to what or whom.

The TL;DR is don't be a clown.

Joined: Nov 2020
Banned
Offline
Banned
Joined: Nov 2020
Originally Posted by The Composer
What she's saying, is to focus on your own opinion and thoughts, and present those. Discuss a discussion on its merits, not your opinion on someone else's opinion. It's also generally a bad idea to spew garbage, no matter to what or whom.

The TL;DR is don't be a clown.

So, my question again is, is the quoted passage acceptable here? The passage was disparaging men as a whole. So, if I were to disparage women as a whole, would that be okay too? If not, then why is it okay for him to do it?

Joined: Sep 2017
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Sep 2017
I actually agree wholeheartedly with the essence of what you tried to say, in that more representation is great even for those that doesn't fit our own interests. The issue is how you choose to convey your message, in an antagonistic and "combatative" manner. You're trying to act aloof, so let me put it as clear as I possibly can to relieve you of any sort of ambiguity. I've colored the segments in blue for clarity, where continued attitude of similar fashion will lead to a temporary suspension. Consider this your warning.

Originally Posted by Passerby
So, let me get this straight:

You're scornful of men who want the character creator to have tough and manly features to represent themselves.

Games that have them don't get your money. Sure, by all means, it's your money.

But you don't seem to have any contrition for wanting games that let you represent yourself.

Why is it okay for you to want representation in games, but not okay for men who don't look like you to get theirs?

Do words like "hypocrisy" and phrases like "lack of self-awareness" exist in your world?

Edited to add:

By all means, ask for the character creator to allow you to make men of a slimmer build. But do you think it's okay to disparage someone for asking something different? What's so special about you?

And it's additionally an issue of persistent behavior across threads and discussions, such as the following example.

Originally Posted by Passerby
Maybe don't cackle and be dismissive about issues others have with the game, and it might not come back to bite you in the ass next time? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.


So the question you're posing about that particular paragraph is completely irrelevant. You can have a million great ideas and points, but misbehavior and toxicity is where moderation comes in. And great ideas doesn't cancel out behavior. So please reel in your attitude and focus on the discussion, not your eagerness for a petty fight. Because you have great ideas and thoughtful contributions to add. It's just a shame to see it muddied by that dash of sass on top.

EDIT: I also just want to add in an answer to your question about if it's ok for someone else to be doing something - If you believe someone's misbehaving or is causing a ruccus, use the report button instead of trying to challenge the bull by its horns. I see it way too often where in principle, a person might be in the clear if you look past the behavior, but trying to deal with it makes them end up in the cross-fire. So again, focus on the merits of the discussion instead of being the arbiter of righteousness - You only end up in the cross-fire of moderation. In a debate, you want to inspire new ways of thinking and to reconsider one's thoughts, not to try and hard-hand the other person with personal targetting, such as "What's so special about you?". You'll just end up with either causing them to lock up more, refusing to change their mind, or spoil the conversation entirely if the receiving end decides to get personal too.

Last edited by The Composer; 24/05/21 01:11 PM.
Joined: Nov 2020
Banned
Offline
Banned
Joined: Nov 2020
Here's the pattern I've observed in these forums over the months:

Somebody says something like, "Why is it always men who ... ?" or something similar, and follows by making insinuations about men.

It's inflammatory on top of being an over-generalisation on men, and usually spiteful.

But no moderation will happen, usually. Because it was made politely, I guess. Ideally, this line of thought should have been cut off immediately, either by outright removing the post, or an immediate response from a moderator stating that this line of thinking is inflammatory, so that others know that the offending post has seen moderation action. But all too often, the post remains, and no moderation action is taken.

Then the other side, seeing that the offending post is still up, replies in a similar fashion, "Women are ... " that's just as inflammatory as the first post.

And only then does moderation happen, chastising both sides for not being civil. Just take the present case. That post was disrespectful of men, made over-generalisation about men, and opening insinuated that men only wanted to satisfy their own selfish desires, ignoring his own. I could have reported his post and moved on. But I knew no moderation would happen, just as no moderation has taken place with regards to him.

So, sure, I'll henceforth report passive-aggressive behaviour like that post, as I used to. But as past cases of moderation actions will attest, posts like those will persist unmoderated, and the cycle of vitriol will follow. It'd be great if passive-aggressive behaviour that over-generalises certain groups based on their immutable characteristics and makes insinuations about their tastes, preferences, etc could have seen moderation action before the return fire.

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
And I can very well imagine a "storm" coming from the same male players if there was a woman demanding a "tough looking female" character look.

Well - the game already has that for women, though, for the most part. The female characters are classically thin/athletic-looking, and I wouldn't mind a slightly larger aka average build for a human female character, or a strong farmer-girl build even. I can't really imagine Elves being anything other than slender and elegant in terms of build, though, but that's coming from commonly accepted fantasy elf mythology.

Female characters do have the options of having a "tougher appearance" at least when it comes to hairstyles (short hair, messy hair, shaved head, dreadlocks, etc - not just your usual damsel-in-distress glossy curls!). And the armour designs in game so far are excellent for female characters. They are fantasy armour but they do look practical, and they cover all the essential bits. No complaints here!

I do wish scars were included as options, as they appear on the companions - but we've got to remember this is EA and the character design options we are seeing are very likely unfinished, and more options could/should be added.

Well , the Netty-type golddwarf is not the thin/Athletic looking, but quite cute. I wouldn't mind invitiing her for afternoon tea. nudge-nudge, wink-wink.
I would also like to have a wider variance in body type for different races. Especially humans. There's more than enough inspiration to be found in various fantasy publications.

Joined: Apr 2021
apprentice
Online Content
apprentice
Joined: Apr 2021
I definitely agree with the OP and I'm in big favor of more variation on faces/builds.
Looking like an instagram filter on a sunny day isn't always the way to go, especially if you want to RP a character that's been smashed in the face with a tankard a few times too many.

My dwarf warrior felt like a bearded baby with the smoothest skin you've ever seen.

Auntie Ethel is the only character showing a bit of age in the game

Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by EvilVik
I definitely agree with the OP and I'm in big favor of more variation on faces/builds.
Looking like an instagram filter on a sunny day isn't always the way to go, especially if you want to RP a character that's been smashed in the face with a tankard a few times too many.

My dwarf warrior felt like a bearded baby with the smoothest skin you've ever seen.

Auntie Ethel is the only character showing a bit of age in the game

And that lady next to Auntie Ethel in the Grove. The one that gives you the gruel.

That must be the old person zone. They are not allowed out. If they are anything like the old people from our world I can imagine why. :P <--- Means I am joking!

Last edited by Blackheifer; 24/05/21 02:31 PM.

Blackheifer
Joined: May 2019
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2019
Originally Posted by Passerby
Here's the pattern I've observed in these forums over the months:

Somebody says something like, "Why is it always men who ... ?" or something similar, and follows by making insinuations about men.

It's inflammatory on top of being an over-generalisation on men, and usually spiteful.

But no moderation will happen, usually. Because it was made politely, I guess. Ideally, this line of thought should have been cut off immediately, either by outright removing the post, or an immediate response from a moderator stating that this line of thinking is inflammatory, so that others know that the offending post has seen moderation action. But all too often, the post remains, and no moderation action is taken.

Then the other side, seeing that the offending post is still up, replies in a similar fashion, "Women are ... " that's just as inflammatory as the first post.

And only then does moderation happen, chastising both sides for not being civil. Just take the present case. That post was disrespectful of men, made over-generalisation about men, and opening insinuated that men only wanted to satisfy their own selfish desires, ignoring his own. I could have reported his post and moved on. But I knew no moderation would happen, just as no moderation has taken place with regards to him.

So, sure, I'll henceforth report passive-aggressive behaviour like that post, as I used to. But as past cases of moderation actions will attest, posts like those will persist unmoderated, and the cycle of vitriol will follow. It'd be great if passive-aggressive behaviour that over-generalises certain groups based on their immutable characteristics and makes insinuations about their tastes, preferences, etc could have seen moderation action before the return fire.
I'm totally with you on this, @Passerby

M
Machinus
Unregistered
Machinus
Unregistered
M
Originally Posted by Passerby
So, let me get this straight:

You're scornful of men who want the character creator to have tough and manly features to represent themselves.

....

Why is it okay for you to want representation in games, but not okay for men who don't look like you to get theirs?

Do words like "hypocrisy" and phrases like "lack of self-awareness" exist in your world?

I think you're fighting a losing battle here. Since videogames have been historically popular only with people of a certain type, now everyone has to demonize them and ignore their preferences in order to "compensate." That's the current climate.

Joined: Sep 2017
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Sep 2017
We generally don't remove posts or censor things, unless it goes directly against the forum rules or nears something of a criminal nature. Challenging topics wouldn't be able to exist otherwise, it's just a matter of how those are conducted. And if people get too stuck up on inter-personal conflicts or poisionous choice of words, is when we typically step in.

Please resume discussions relevant to the thread's topic here on forth, in a constructive manner.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Sweden
Dez Offline
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
... I just tried to imagine what a "tough, manly halfling" would look like ...

1) I have no troubles imagining a tough halfling (and thanks Tuco for your example! It was glorious).

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
I'm notat all surprised that the wish for a "tough, manly looking characters" was posted by men irst. I never have seen a similar wish by women to have "cosy, femanly looking charascters", so to say. It's always male players who demand first.

2) Mainly because most female characters are... Feminine... Which represents the majority of the female population? *thinking* I mean, did you ever play APB Reloaded? The ladies there often designed their characters about as stereotypical as the guys made their female characters. Same thing occurs in MMORPGs like FFXIV, WoW and GW2. In my experience (which is only about 17 years of playing MMO RPGs wink ), there is not that much of a difference in how men and women design their characters. Some women like revealing armor - as do some men. Some women want cute and girly characters - as do some men. Some women prefer more realistic / moderate armor and rugged appearance - and, yet again, as do some men. It is less of a gender thing than a individual matter of taste-thing.

Anyways, if you're asking why women aren't demanding more masculine characters... Well, I mean - then you have not been very observant at the discussions going on. Ladies (and men alike) often argue for greater body customization and diversity - including traditional feminine aspects, and the complete opposite. Variation and alternatives is good! No matter personal preferences, it only makes sense to appreciate customization options.

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
And I can very well imagine a "storm" coming from the same male players if there was a woman demanding a "tough looking female" character look.

3) I don't think I've *EVER* seen a man complain about females wanting "tough looking female(s)"... Quite the opposite.

I mean, whatever makes sense for the character. A female mage that has spent her entire life studying and reading up on arcane magics should be a little thinner (or thicker) and less athletic than the female mercenary warrior that has seen enough wars to last an entire lifetime. I have not ever seen anybody argue against that logic (of course, there can sometimes be discussions whenever a character should be fit or not, but there is never any debate regarding that there SHOULD be different body types).

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
I mean, the usuual reactions of male players are like this : "Men should look grim, dark, clothed entirely in black, if possible, manly and tough, and women should look like Hello Kitty".

4) What? Yet again, I have not ever seen anyone reason like that unless they are literally just trolling around. I really don't get why you don't want "manly, tough, grim, dark, black clothed" men included though? I'd even advocate for the Hello Kitty options for those who want it.

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
This isn't diversity in looks. It is quite the opposite.

5) Wrong. By the dictionary definition.

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
My own opinion on that is this : I can only play what i have at least in part in my self.
And, fate gave me that too small body without a manly look.
Which meant for me, that I could never played manly looking charactersm because throughout my whole life, I never had that in me.

6) Right... But what about the people who happen to be bulkier in real life? What about their representation? Should they be excluded and be "forced" to go with the wrong body types because you're feeling spiteful from previous gaming experiences? That does not feel fair, nor logical. Why can't they have their presentation in terms of more bulkier bodies, and you have your presentation in terms of slimmer bodies? Win-win.

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
So, I have emancipated myself from the cliché of those grim, tough, manly looking characters. Games which have that are simply not played by me. My money is saved.

7) Oookay? I myself would never exclude a game just because they happen to include one or two body types that do not match my irl one. It feels really odd from a roleplaying perspective to be mad about additional options. Nobody wants to take away the more slender body type away from you - so I really don't even get what you're making a fuss about. Why does it bother you what other people want to roleplay as? You literally don't have to touch the body type, nor would other player's characters ever be forced into your game.

Just keep your slimmer character and be happy, and let other people get their bulky characters and be happy. Everybody wins, and everybody gets the representation / roleplaying options that they want. \o/ Yay variation.

Last edited by Dez; 24/05/21 04:06 PM.
Joined: Nov 2020
Banned
Offline
Banned
Joined: Nov 2020
All right, cool. So it's shouldn't be objectionable for me to reply in similar fashion, as in, not attacking anyone in particular, just people who belong to certain groups: (this sounds like it's even worse, but hey, it's allowed for him, so it should be for me too, right?)

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
I'm notat all surprised that the wish for a "tough, manly looking characters" was posted by men irst. I never have seen a similar wish by women to have "cosy, femanly looking charascters", so to say. It's always male players who demand first.

And I'm not at all surprised that the ones upset by this request are men who are not tough and manly. I have also never seen complaints by men that male characters in video games are too handsome, too well-built, too intelligent, too charismatic and too charming, even though these highly desirable specimens are just objectifications for the female audience's female gaze.

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
And I can very well imagine a "storm" coming from the same male players if there was a woman demanding a "tough looking female" character look.

And I can also imagine tears and screeching from some female players if there were men who demanded that male characters that are attractive and desirable be removed, just as beautiful and charming women have been systematically excised from western games.

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
I mean, the usuual reactions of male players are like this : "Men should look grim, dark, clothed entirely in black, if possible, manly and tough, and women should look like Hello Kitty".
This isn't diversity in looks. It is quite the opposite.

The usual reactions of female players are like this: "Women in games should not be beautiful, but plain-looking, just like in real life, and we've suffer SO MUCH all these years, so now, it's payback time. Men need to be PUNISHED, and it's hilarious that they're getting their comeuppance now."

This doesn't convince anyone. It is quite the opposite. It also paints women as being mean-spirited.

Originally Posted by AlrikFassbauer
My own opinion on that is this : I can only play what i have at least in part in my self.
And, fate gave me that too small body without a manly look.
Which meant for me, that I could never played manly looking charactersm because throughout my whole life, I never had that in me.

So, I have emancipated myself from the cliché of those grim, tough, manly looking characters. Games which have that are simply not played by me. My money is saved.

I'm just a plain, average guy in real life, so ALL male characters in games should be like me - plain and average. Any male character that rises above the median in looks, intelligence and accomplishment should be removed from the game, as it harms my fragile ego (it doesn't, but let's pretend it does).

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Sweden
Dez Offline
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Sweden
Originally Posted by Passerby
I'm just a plain, average guy in real life, so ALL male characters in games should be like me - plain and average. Any male character that rises above the median in looks, intelligence and accomplishment should be removed from the game, as it harms my fragile ego (it doesn't, but let's pretend it does).

Hey! Sounds like the average idea for meta anime series. :'D Don't forget that ALL ladies should fall at his feet despite him being average af - but the main character gotta be too stupid to realize / careless to give af. x'd

*okay I am getting off topic, but I just haaaad to say it*

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Allright, i give up ... please help me here ...
Lets say, that its really our (read as: man), thing to expect bulky, tought, manly, rough, and w/e another strong adjective for our characters ...

How exactly it harms the game to add more than one body type? O_o
Or even better, how is that, it was suggested by male player relevant? O_o

Since the only problem i can find on my own is the fact that armors are needed to be created to fit multiple models ... wich they must be anyway, since half-orcs are biger in general ... and if someome as Halsin will be companion, its just another example.
Other than that i really cant find any problem with this suggestion, so im clearly missing something.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Sep 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2020
Ouch. About what are you people even arguing? It's cRPG. Appearance and personality options are supposed to be diverse as long it doesn't break any rules of the world. And it has nothing to do with how someone looks IRL. RP stands for role-play, not real-person in that abbreviation.

Joined: May 2021
Location: North America
Q
member
Offline
member
Q
Joined: May 2021
Location: North America
Agree with OP. I want to make a gruff old barbarian (when that class releases) but the character creator makes it hard to make a gruff old anything. Not particularly happy with the dearth of options in that area. I also find it incredibly strange that *anyone* would specifically want that to NOT be in the game.

Last edited by qwerrecd42; 24/05/21 04:59 PM.
Joined: Feb 2021
P
addict
Offline
addict
P
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by Zellin
Ouch. About what are you people even arguing? It's cRPG. Appearance and personality options are supposed to be diverse as long it doesn't break any rules of the world. And it has nothing to do with how someone looks IRL. RP stands for role-play, not real-person in that abbreviation.

I think what most are commenting about is the thought that wanting a male character to look more "manly" as it were, or more grizzled, is in some way a form of toxic masculinity as it was relayed earlier. Where most of us agree with your sentiment, that more character customization is better. Personally, I just miss the days where you could make a character you like, and not having it in some way being called names or insulted because we are, you know, guys.

I mean I remember the days when they said D&D caused Satanism, or FPS games caused violence. To me it is the same thing to try and say you are some how Misogynistic for wanting your male or female character to look a certain way. confused

Last edited by Pandemonica; 24/05/21 05:00 PM.
Joined: Dec 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2020
AlrikFassbauer: I'm not really getting you. It's a roleplaying game, you don't have to play yourself. I'm a small lady in real life, but I would love to play a bit bigger halforc lady or maybe a dragonborn lady when they are out. I don't have horns in real life, but I like to play a tiefling. I mean, it's all good and nice to want to play yourself, I know that many people prefer to play self inserts, but what is the harm in giving other people the option to play something wildly different from their real life?
I played a male serial killer in a Call of Cthulhu game once - you can be assured that a) I'm not male and b) what's more important: I'm not a serial killer.
I just find it fun to do and be something completely different. So yeah, I'm not familiar with the male models in the game, but since a lot of people are writing in this thread, a manly male seems to be needed in character creation.

I would love to have as many hair options as the men for ladies though - and different bodyforms. And yes, the possibility to play an older person. It is doable with mods, but it would be nice to have that in the game.

Edit: Tuco: Really love your halfling. I might try out male halfling too after seeing this.

Last edited by fylimar; 24/05/21 05:21 PM.

"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
M
Machinus
Unregistered
Machinus
Unregistered
M
Person A: "I want more character appearance options."
Person B: "You're bad for wanting more options."

Kind of a weird reaction, isn't it?

Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5