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Originally Posted by Tuco
I always found the original Larian claim that these were just the "evil" companions dubious at best. They seem to be "morally grey" at worst.
Most likely just a last minute attempt to throw the fanbase a bone, because they wouldn't quit bitching about how their companions were being mean to them.
"Yeah, yeah, those guys are totally evil. Don't listen to them. The nice ones are coming someday".

That said, maybe being evil does not need to overlap with being a psychopath and a self-harming idiot? Because these would be the only reasons to "join the Absolute side" currently.

In fairness to Larian, they made that claim that these are the evil companions before EA was released, so at least this was their intent ahead of time. I think these are pretty interesting brands of evil at least. I like them all for varying reasons honestly.

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I kinda hope we do get a full on chaotic evil companion at some point in the origin companion list. Would be interesting to have someone like say Edwin in personality advising us to do certain evil actions to achieve certain results. (And being origin I'd love to see the rational they have for doing good things when under your control).

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I kinda hope we do get a full on chaotic evil companion at some point in the origin companion list. Would be interesting to have someone like say Edwin in personality advising us to do certain evil actions to achieve certain results. (And being origin I'd love to see the rational they have for doing good things when under your control).

Edwin was Lawful Evil like most Red Wizards.

Sarevok was Chaotic Evil.

I thought maybe we would get a chance to recruit one of the Goblins, like Sazza, who is clearly Chaotic Evil or Minthara who seems to be Neutral Evil.


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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
[quote=Tuco]I always found the original Larian claim that these were just the "evil" companions dubious at best. They seem to be "morally grey" at worst.
Most likely just a last minute attempt to throw the fanbase a bone, because they wouldn't quit bitching about how their companions were being mean to them.
"Yeah, yeah, those guys are totally evil. Don't listen to them. The nice ones are coming someday".

Shadowheart seems like she's going to be a switch hitter for good and evil. Guess you can't have a cleric of Shar party member in a BG game without having a redemption arc. grin

But the fact that Shadowheart is a secret big softie and that Lae'zel and her are going to have a conflict that we know as per Larion is going to come to a head sooner rather than later kinda speaks to some of the issues with the companions that concern me. None of the good/neutral characters are from what we know so far, or are written with any inter-party conflicts or 'corruption' arcs in mind, but they *will* leave the party en masse seemingly if you side with the goblins. I get that this is kinda on theme for good characters to cooperate and evil characters to be in it more for themselves, but If Larion want's to go with a 'revolving cast' for evil playthroughs, I really hope they give us some Mintharas and Sazzas or whomever to plug the gaps left by departing/dead party members. Oh, and hopefully at least one good origins character that can be swayed to evil for parity with Shadowheart being a player for both teams. Gale kinda has this going on, but it results in a very antagonistic relationship with the MC, and last I checked also blocks off his romance.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I kinda hope we do get a full on chaotic evil companion at some point in the origin companion list. Would be interesting to have someone like say Edwin in personality advising us to do certain evil actions to achieve certain results. (And being origin I'd love to see the rational they have for doing good things when under your control).

Edwin was Lawful Evil like most Red Wizards.

Sarevok was Chaotic Evil.

I thought maybe we would get a chance to recruit one of the Goblins, like Sazza, who is clearly Chaotic Evil or Minthara who seems to be Neutral Evil.

Was more thinking about a Chaotic Evil guy with Edwin's personality, more the whole super proud, better than everyone else, and very strong ego about every single thing they do.

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I feel like Wyll is more good than anything else. Any time you do something bad or insult tieflings he loses approval.

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I do think it’s rather unfair to compare this to finished (or beta) games. We’ve barely scratched the surface here, so we can’t know how any of our choices ultimately play out.

That said, this topic has been discussed at length, and it is true to say that currently, the evil side is rather one dimensional and has more draw backs than positives “as things stand”.

The evil path is also less nuanced.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I kinda hope we do get a full on chaotic evil companion at some point in the origin companion list. Would be interesting to have someone like say Edwin in personality advising us to do certain evil actions to achieve certain results. (And being origin I'd love to see the rational they have for doing good things when under your control).

Edwin was Lawful Evil like most Red Wizards.

Sarevok was Chaotic Evil.

I thought maybe we would get a chance to recruit one of the Goblins, like Sazza, who is clearly Chaotic Evil or Minthara who seems to be Neutral Evil.

Was more thinking about a Chaotic Evil guy with Edwin's personality, more the whole super proud, better than everyone else, and very strong ego about every single thing they do.


I would like to see an evolved Chaotic Evil character. I agree that an Edwin type would be more interesting than Sazza. Sazza's behavior is predictable.

Edwin was so odd, he hated everyone EXCEPT for Alora.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
I definitely am not a fan of the evil route's execution, but in terms of the way it interacts
That said, maybe being evil does not need to overlap with being a psychopath and a self-harming idiot? Because these would be the only reasons to "join the Absolute side" currently.

This for sure. "Currently" being a big plus. The seeds of evil can be sown without even knowing it. Currently, there is no really big "reward" for being evil, like how there is with being a hero. I'm not sure how
The shadow druids seizing control of the grove from the inside would work. The rats around Kagha are shadow druids.
Halsin has mentioned that
the grove is so important that a few lifetimes would not be able to comprehend,
further stating that
the roots of the grove touch everything
. What would the absolute do with that power? There is a document in Blighted Village (previously a
Selunite
village) which states
Hellriders have been patrolling and terrorizing the town, and Zevlor's gloves (in trade window) are named "Hellrider's Pride".
Would saving Zevlor actually be to the benefit of evil?

All of that is putting aside the Zhentarim you find in two locations, both of which speak volumes to what is happening at moonrise towers. In the end, it comes down to what is TRULY evil? Evil ends or Evil means? Both? While we may not be so highly "rewarded" (whatever that means) for playing evil with the intent of evil, immediate rewards, the long term effect is, without a doubt in my mind, part of the grand design.

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It's also important to note that we do NOT know the intent of 3 current companions. The other two (Astarion and Lae'zel) are bold faced and contentious.

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Also, if you increase party favor, your party members won't leave when you attack the grove. I have had 2 successful attempts with this context. They even have dialogue on the topic.

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Originally Posted by UV01
This for sure. "Currently" being a big plus. The seeds of evil can be sown without even knowing it. Currently, there is no really big "reward" for being evil, like how there is with being a hero.

Whoa !!! Whoa..... you really didn't just say that..... well yes he did..... just hold on there.... There is no big reward for being evil??? Hello??? are we playing the same game???

First off there is
Nailing a Drow Priestess.


And then there is
getting ridden hard.... on a shrine.... to the absolute....

And you can't seriouslly think that
becoming a consort to a Drow Priestess that aims to return to Menzobarazan
has no value at all....

Not to mention
it's total payback to those darn druids for trying to kill you when you first arrive to seek their help ( Nettie )

And
the look on Zevlor's face when you open the gates.....
PRICELESS

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WELL IT LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE SOME COOL REWARDS! None of them are power based at this moment. For saving Halsin, you get a
helmet
. I suppose you could argue that killing Rath gives you the
secret vault tablet
but you receive that if you help Halsin too. It's not much in the way of power though the knowledge gained may be equivalent. Becoming a Priestess' consort in Menzobarazan would fall under my projected evil description, assuming it bares fruit.

I'm simply saying people are underestimating what evil is in favor of immediate gratification, which by the looks of these posts, is tied to power.

Last edited by UV01; 23/05/21 01:04 AM.
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There's a couple of older posts (Near the beta's release) that went pretty deep into why the evil path isn't good. For me it mainly boils down to it being a typical kill everyone and sacrifice your intelligence because evil story. I'm hoping they either revamp or better flesh out the evil path to have some depth and nuance but, being honest, I'd be surprised if they actually do considering it's already hinging on you accepting having an almost literal bomb in your head and that's not an easy pill to sell.

As for evil companions I thought the general consensus was that Astarion and Lae'zel are somewhat evil, even then you can argue against it, and the rest were more or less neutral leaning towards good. Hell Shadowheart is probably brainwashed and she would've been the next closest evil character.

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Main problem most people have with Evil route is that they see the Good one as "right one" ... -_-


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Main problem most people have with Evil route is that they see the Good one as "right one" ... -_-

I really wouldn't say that. It's a game afterall. I like that Larain gives us the option to play evil, but the evil storyline just feels to little fleshed out at the moment. There needs to be more, but most of all clearer, incentives to go that path. Right now it's complete insanity to kill Halsin and side with the goblins, since it's hinted many times that he is our best chance of healing. The only reason why it would make sense right now to side with the goblins is if you plan on not getting the tadpole out of your head in the first place, but instead want to learn to control it.

That said, I think there is a lot of potential here. It just needs to be streamlined and made clearer why someone would choose this path, and what's to gain from it compared to the good path.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
There needs to be more, but most of all clearer, incentives to go that path. Right now it's complete insanity to kill Halsin and side with the goblins, since it's hinted many times that he is our best chance of healing.
See? This is exactly what i mean ...
"the right one" laugh

Originally Posted by Sigi98
since it's hinted many times that he is our best chance of healing.
It depends on who do you listen ...

Shadow hints you litteraly any possibility, she kinda buged in one of my games, and started to demanding we try to talk with "that goblin priestess" ... sadly, we allready killed her. laugh
Druids, surprisingly hints you that their leader, who they desperately need to rescue by the way, would be your best shot (coincidence? laugh ) ...
But Lae'zel keeps telling you litteraly "no druid, no matter how powerfull can help us" ...

Interesting how many people ignores everything else and still feels like Halsin is their best chance, even if the only one who sugested him was druid who:
1) Just tryed to murder you
2) Desperately need Halsin back
3) Have litteraly no idea about what is happening with your tadpole laugh
4) Just few minutes earlier "healed" the bird with conclusion "either she live up, or die" laugh

But if you want to convince me, list at least one Character that is sugesting you Halsin as your best option for removing tadpole, except Nettie and Shadowheart. laugh
Since you claimed "its hinted many times" it should not be a problem. wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 06/06/21 08:21 AM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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If you want people to play your Evil route and enjoy it, you have to overcome the natural hero instinct. The average person doesn't want to be a villain. You can't just sit there and complain that those gosh darn gamers don't want to kick puppies. Give me a compelling reason to play it that overcomes (or plays into, if you're really clever) my natural hero instinct.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
But if you want to convince me, list at least one Character that is sugesting you Halsin as your best option for removing tadpole, except Nettie and Shadowheart. laugh
Since you claimed "its hinted many times" it should not be a problem. wink

first of all, I don't want to convince you... I'm not on this forum to convince anybody of anything. The way you write lets me guess that it's pointless to even try anyway.
And I mean exactly Shadowheart and Nettie. Why do I think they are right in saying that Halsin is the best chance? Because he studies the tadpoles. All over the druid grove you can find hints that Halsin has more of an idea of how to heal us than most people. All the while Lae'zel's reason to go to her creche is literally just 'they are my people'.

I'm done arguing about this.

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Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
You can't just sit there and complain that those gosh darn gamers don't want to kick puppies. Give me a compelling reason to play it that overcomes (or plays into, if you're really clever) my natural hero instinct.
That is certainly one way to do it ...
Another one is simply give players the options and dont give a damn about wich they would prefer. laugh
(That is my favourite attitude)

Problem with giving players "compelling reason" is that the reason is usualy reward ...
Personaly i dont see that as good desing ... i mean was i really sucesfull, when i "convinced" players with triple amount of gold instead of interesting story? :-/ I think not.

That is one of reasons why i like how Goblin route ended in EA ...
Many people expected great reward in the end and they was mad about all they get was regrets. laugh
But somehow it just felt right to me. laugh
Evil should be lotery, sometimes you get yourself a whole kingdom, sometimes all you get is knife in your back. :3

Originally Posted by Sigi98
And I mean exactly Shadowheart and Nettie.
Cant say im surprised ... so your "many" actualy means two ...
That would mean if there is two companions who would encourage you to not care about Groove, evil route is also supported by "many"?

Astarion > keeps talking about controling the tadpole, instead of removing it ...
Lae'zel > specificly claims that no druid have the power to help you ...
Shadowheart > urges you to "not care about theese people, just get done with our business and leave" ... then once you meet Auntie Ethel, she completely forgets about some druids, and urge you to get her help instead
Sazza > claims that her priestess can fix it with a snap
Rafael > claims that nobody but him will ever be able to help you

We allready get double "many" and almost reached triple "many". O_o
And yet you are convinced that the good way is supported more in the game? o_O

Originally Posted by Sigi98
All over the druid grove you can find hints that Halsin has more of an idea of how to heal us than most people.
Simmilar as "many" was actualy two ...
I dare to presume that "all over the groove" means actualy "there are two dead tadpoles in jars, in his secret room" aswell as few lists of papers, where he litteraly describes that there is something odd about theese parasites, but he have litteraly no idea what. laugh

Originally Posted by Sigi98
All the while Lae'zel's reason to go to her creche is literally just 'they are my people'.
That is completely true ... and it would be a good argument, if that wasnt even Nettie's case. laugh

Why for Nettie is okey to support her own mentor, leader, dearest friend and "her people" ...
But for Lae'zel its not? :P

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 06/06/21 09:26 AM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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