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And i presume you will not say what context it was, nor where, or how i put it out of it.
Right? So ... you welcome i gues. laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
But if you want to convince me, list at least one Character that is sugesting you Halsin as your best option for removing tadpole, except Nettie and Shadowheart. laugh
Since you claimed "its hinted many times" it should not be a problem. wink

The issue is that for what content we have in EA, all roads lead to Rome. Rome being The Goblin Camp and saving Halsin. It's an issue of incomplete content.

The Grove is the main place that sets in motion which direction you will take. Zevlor, Nettie, and even Kagha herself convinces you to find Halsin or "help the Tieflings". As the first hub of the game, it feels like very strong encouragement when 3 different plot threads push you in this direction.

As far as Companion opinion's go:
Shadowheart makes it clear that she believes we need to find a healer. This will lead us to Halsin.
Wyll's condition for joining the party is killing the Goblin leaders. This will lead us to Halsin.
Astarion makes it clear he is not looking for a healer, but he is chaotic. He's the closest companion to being on board with siding with the Goblins, but doesn't hide the fact that goblins are vermin and that the Absolute might not be something we can twist into our favor.
Lae'zel's lead is to find the creche and shuns all healers including Nettie, Halsin, Sazza's Goblin Priestess, and what she assumes is ghaik-like trickery of the Absolute. This leads you to making a bee-line for the Gith Patrol whose conclusion is not in EA.
Not sure about Gale.

The only 3 paths that make sense to siding with the Goblins are:
1) sneaking past the Grove entirely to make it so Minthara is somewhat the first lead you get.
2) you are implied to be desperate enough or distrust the other leads enough to pursue the lead of a Goblin Priestess
3) you are enamored by the siblings deference to "True Souls"

And for the above situations aside from the first one, you'll encounter so much side information telling you its a bad idea that you have to play a specific brand of powerhungry chaotic evil to do so. And even still, once you murder the Grove, the benefits of the action are not in EA. The alternate Shadowlands passage and the drow controlled Moonrise Towers are not yet in EA. You'll probably have the easiest time taking that route, but for now it's definitely not a convincing route over just saving Halsin who has attempted to actually study the tadpole.

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Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
The issue is that for what content we have in EA, all roads lead to Rome. Rome being The Goblin Camp and saving Halsin. It's an issue of incomplete content.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
The Grove is the main place that sets in motion which direction you will take. Zevlor, Nettie, and even Kagha herself convinces you to find Halsin or "help the Tieflings". As the first hub of the game, it feels like very strong encouragement when 3 different plot threads push you in this direction.
That dont seem exactly acurate ...

Kagha asks you to help Tieflings as they leave, she dont care about Halsin at all, she actualy dont even care about Tieflings at all ... especialy as long as they stay.
True, she asks you to find Halsin and help Tieflings ... but only IF and WHEN you redeem her, not a second sooner. :-/ Im not quite sure if that is still conciderable as "first meeting". :-/

Zevlor neither, he asks you to deal with Kagha ... and then, he asks you to deal with Goblins ... saving Halsin is there just sideffect and if something went wrong and he die, nothing really happens in his perspective.

The only one who actualy asks you to save him, is Nettie ... and as i stated countless times abowe (and in other topics) she is for several reasons not quite worthy of unconditioned thrust. :-/

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
As far as Companion opinion's go:
Shadowheart makes it clear that she believes we need to find a healer. This will lead us to Halsin.
Wyll's condition for joining the party is killing the Goblin leaders. This will lead us to Halsin.
Astarion makes it clear he is not looking for a healer, but he is chaotic. He's the closest companion to being on board with siding with the Goblins, but doesn't hide the fact that goblins are vermin and that the Absolute might not be something we can twist into our favor.
Lae'zel's lead is to find the creche and shuns all healers including Nettie, Halsin, Sazza's Goblin Priestess, and what she assumes is ghaik-like trickery of the Absolute. This leads you to making a bee-line for the Gith Patrol whose conclusion is not in EA.
Not sure about Gale.
As abowe, not exactly acurate ...

Shadowheart, really encourages us to find halsin ... aswell as Hag, Gut, and if you are persistent enough and asks her ofen, even Githyanki creche ... oddly enough, Raphael is the only option she refuses without a doubt.
That means Shadowheart dont give a damn about Halsin, her role is simply to reminding us main plot of Act 1 laugh ... or, to keep it in roleplay perspective, to keep reminding us that we need to find ANY healer, with focus on word ANY. smile
So i dont think she is good argument here ... since she gives +1 for Halsin, but also +1 for Goblins (specificly Gut) ...

Wyll ... that is actualy the same situation as with Zevlor, he dont give a damn about Halsin, yet Wyll will leave us, if we join the Gobilns ... so yes, this one could be good argument, if we count knowledge from previous gameplay, since otherwise there is few hints that he will not be happy about us, yet i was quite surprised for the first time, since i would never gues that he will leave us to be honest. O_o
So he could be good argument ... since he only voted for killing the goblin leaders, and even tho he seemed to refocus elsewhere, when he started to talk with them about Mizora and was even willing to torture inocent man ... and even tho he never actualy cared about Halsin himself ... if we conly concider who is voting for Good, and who for Evil route ... Wyll is certainly for Good one.

Astarion is cristal clear about not wanting to remove the parasite, nor helping anyone in groove ...
So i dare to presume, there is no need for any more to talk to agree on Astarion would Vote for Goblins ... i mean, sure you are right that he dont hide the fact that goblins are vermin, yet he admits that he more than like his new power to comand theese vermins. laugh

Lae'zel stands aside ... she dont care about anyone and anything, only her people is the proper way.
So i would say she is irellevant in this matter, since for her both options are wrong. laugh

And Gale is just the same.

Anyway
So if you count up your companions influence in this matter you get +1 for good, +1 for evil, +1 for litteraly everything, and 2 who dont care at all.
No matter how i count it seems to me like Followers were no help at all. laugh

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
The only 3 paths that make sense to siding with the Goblins are:
1) sneaking past the Grove entirely to make it so Minthara is somewhat the first lead you get.
2) you are implied to be desperate enough or distrust the other leads enough to pursue the lead of a Goblin Priestess
3) you are enamored by the siblings deference to "True Souls"
Strongly disagree ...
- You can also be so curious about content of Kagha's chest so you try to steal her key (since its unlockpickable right now ... not sure if that isnt bug tho) ... then you might fail, and if you do, Druids attack you ... if that happens, few Druids escapes the room (there is curently no way to prevent it), and launch full scale attack on Tieflings.
- You can also support Kagha, try to push on Zevlor that Tieflings need to leave ... in that case Zevlor will attack you, and when you report to Kagha that you killed him, and do Long rest ... grove will be entangled with thorns, and every NPC inside turn hostile towards you.
- You can also loose your opourtunity to help Tieflings, if you dont let go that one of kids steal from you ... and you decide that you dont want to pay the fee ... if you demand returning of your things, or you try to intimidate and fail, the kids will "tell on you" to Tieflings guards ... wich with turn hostile towards you, unless you pass incredibly hard roll (i had dif. 19 with my warlock!, so it was certainly not bcs of low Cha) ... i was expecting there possibility to use Kagha or Zevlore either as "Lets take this matter to your leader", or only Kagha as intimidate option like: "Kagha allready killed one of your childern for thievery, shall i report another one?"
- And ofcourse there is common sence in law enforcement ...
- Also, there is that point i repeated countless times in the other topics about Good/Evil route ... and that is simple power lust. Your character cam, simmilar to what Gale suggests about Raphael, simply believe that he would be able to outsmart whole cult of the Absolute, and this tadpole ... and he simply become more powerfull than anyone imagined. laugh
- And last but not least ... being Drow. laugh It might seem trivial, but even this tiny tidbit can tip the scales to goblins side. :P
On one hand you have groups of people who threats you with disrespect, charges insane princes for everything and keep demanding your help ... on other hand you have, true vermins, but they threat you as Roayality, as you deserve. laugh

Dont get me wrong, i do know that in all those cases you can technicaly still decide to kill all Goblin Leaders, and de-facto experience something like good playthrough. laugh
But the point is that there is much more ways that could lead you straight to Goblins arms. :P

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
And for the above situations aside from the first one, you'll encounter so much side information telling you its a bad idea
Could you list some?
Since the only thing i can remember right now, is the fact that siblings will try to kill you once you admit that you were on Nautiloid ... and that can be easily avoided, both intentionaly, or by accident. O_o

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
that you have to play a specific brand of powerhungry chaotic evil to do so.
Not only chaotic evil characters can desire more power ...
As they say "end justify the means" ... Wyll could have those words tatooed on his forehead. laugh

Originally Posted by AvatarOfSHODAN
And even still, once you murder the Grove, the benefits of the action are not in EA.
True ... but that is hardly conciderable ...
I mean, there arent even any huge benefits for helping the groove ... maybe except you have litteraly 1 more Vendor, Wyll dont leave you (not sure if i would call that a benefit tho laugh ) and you get one useless clothing (since so far at least as far i know, no NPC used cold damage on me) and one nice looking spear that is actualy a little weaker compared to other weapons.


Short coment on my English. smile

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I thought about it a lot and I do have to give credit to Larian for even creating an evil path, something that is really uncommon in crpgs. Most crpgs give you evil options but they are just variations of the same paths. Take a look at the underdark in bg2 - you have the option to be a real asshole but ultimately the story is the same. Larian tried to do something a little different.

However, I feel like the result is so bad I don't think it is worth it


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Abits
I thought about it a lot and I do have to give credit to Larian for even creating an evil path, something that is really uncommon in crpgs. Most crpgs give you evil options but they are just variations of the same paths. Take a look at the underdark in bg2 - you have the option to be a real asshole but ultimately the story is the same. Larian tried to do something a little different.

However, I feel like the result is so bad I don't think it is worth it
I like the existence of the evil route too but agree that it's currently bad. But, it'd require a pretty simple change to vastly improve it! Just have Minthara explicitly promise you power from the Absolute if you give up the location of the druid grove and/or participate in the raid. You'd be able to join the cult with their recommendation. That's a perfectly valid (non-murder-happy) "evil" motivation: power at the expense of others. This could even work for more neutral or even good characters: you're trying to infiltrate this cult in order to learn more about the tadpole in your head and/or to eventually take down the cult: sorry tieflings&druids you're just collateral damage/it's for the Greater Good.

Larian wouldn't even need to significantly change the morning after scene with Minthara; it's perfectly reasonable that an evil cult would
betray people it earlier promised to help.
Just add a dialogue line or two referencing the deal made.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Just have Minthara explicitly promise you power from the Absolute if you give up the location of the druid grove and/or participate in the raid. You'd be able to join the cult with their recommendation. That's a perfectly valid (non-murder-happy) "evil" motivation: power at the expense of others. This could even work for more neutral or even good characters: you're trying to infiltrate this cult in order to learn more about the tadpole in your head and/or to eventually take down the cult: sorry tieflings&druids you're just collateral damage/it's for the Greater Good.
You can do all that even now, just presuming that ...
Is that sentence really so important? :-/ Do we really need DM to hold our hands and give us huge neon sign on every single crossroad? :-/


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Wyll ... that is actualy the same situation as with Zevlor, he dont give a damn about Halsin, yet Wyll will leave us, if we join the Gobilns ... so yes, this one could be good argument, if we count knowledge from previous gameplay, since otherwise there is few hints that he will not be happy about us, yet i was quite surprised for the first time, since i would never gues that he will leave us to be honest. O_o


This isn't really relevant to the discussion but I just had to take a moment and address this because I am surprised that you were surprised. It seemed glaringly obvious to me from the jump that Wyll would leave if we joined the goblins. I would have been more shocked if he'd stayed after joining up with them. I am really curious as to why you were surprised.

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Just have Minthara explicitly promise you power from the Absolute if you give up the location of the druid grove and/or participate in the raid. You'd be able to join the cult with their recommendation. That's a perfectly valid (non-murder-happy) "evil" motivation: power at the expense of others. This could even work for more neutral or even good characters: you're trying to infiltrate this cult in order to learn more about the tadpole in your head and/or to eventually take down the cult: sorry tieflings&druids you're just collateral damage/it's for the Greater Good.
You can do all that even now, just presuming that ...
Is that sentence really so important? :-/ Do we really need DM to hold our hands and give us huge neon sign on every single crossroad? :-/

Back onto the topic though, maybe you're just way more confident than I am-you probably are honestly, I'm not all that confident most of the time-but I can't imagine a reasonably intelligent person taking that much risk on their own presumption. Joining up on the presumption that you'll get power feels too flimsy to me honestly. It feels like it relies on your character making too many assumptions based on circumstantial evidence. Sure, that would be in-character for some evil characters, but I think there are just way more ifs involved in the evil path than the good path. If you go with the good path, you're getting an opportunity to remove the parasite, and if that fails then you can just move onto the next opportunity. If you side with the evil path, you get an opportunity to maybe control the parasite, while also surrounding yourself with people who have the ability to mentally manipulate other people infected by the tadpole without their knowing (how will you know if they're doing to you what you may have done to others already?) And if you're wrong then at best you've wasted precious time you could have been searching for a cure and also lost a potential healer in the process.

Which actually makes me think of a related issue. Let me know if I'm forgetting about something we learn in-game, but I don't think we actually know enough about the cult in general. Not in the sense that we don't know their conection to the tadpole or anything; we don't know enough about it as an organization. How much influence do they actually have? How long have they been around? The kind of basic information that would be pretty reasonable for a character to ask upon first encounter. Do we know whether or not this isn't just a bunch of drow with tadpoles who've mentally dominated and intimidated goblins into doing their bidding?

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Just have Minthara explicitly promise you power from the Absolute if you give up the location of the druid grove and/or participate in the raid. You'd be able to join the cult with their recommendation. That's a perfectly valid (non-murder-happy) "evil" motivation: power at the expense of others. This could even work for more neutral or even good characters: you're trying to infiltrate this cult in order to learn more about the tadpole in your head and/or to eventually take down the cult: sorry tieflings&druids you're just collateral damage/it's for the Greater Good.
You can do all that even now, just presuming that ...
Is that sentence really so important? :-/ Do we really need DM to hold our hands and give us huge neon sign on every single crossroad? :-/
That seems like a pretty foolish assumption to make. "Yes evil cult, I totally believe, based off my interactions with Minthara and Dror (who both are arrogant, belittle your character, and give your character commands) that by helping you you'll give me a nice position in the cult and share cult secrets with me."

Regardless of whether such a line needs to be in there, it would make the game better if you could roleplay bargaining with Minthara for your information on the druid grove location. And as @Gray Ghost says, it makes sense that (smart) characters would want to know more about the cult before joining.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I am really curious as to why you were surprised.
Few reasons actualy ...
For one, his attitude toward Goblins seem to me just the same as Shadowheart's toward Gith ... and she also dont leave you, when you invite Lae'zel to join your group ... she keep talking about how bad decision it was, but that is all. I expected the same from Wyll.
Of course, if you watch datamining materials ... we kinda know that it wont be all even between this pair.
For two, the second you enter Goblin camp, he seemed to me like he completely forgot how much he hated them ... and when you talk with Spike, more like when HE talked with spike, it seemed like he aimed his focus elsewhere ... specificly to find Mizora, and it seemed to me like he totally forgot about murdering Goblins, since he never mentioned it again. Therefore i presumed (and now i know i presumed incorectly) that all those talks about killing the Goblin leaders was just to find some group of adventurers, who would help him to get inside ... therefore to Spike ... therefore to info about Mizora. smile
Aaaand maybe there was something more ... but if so, i forgot. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I can't imagine a reasonably intelligent person taking that much risk on their own presumption.
Honestly?
I believe that every risk in history of humanity was made based on own presumptions. smile
Even if that presumption would be just hope that other person will not betray you, and certainly told you the whole truth. laugh But, you are right ... lets stick to the topic. smile

Just as i stated in that previous topic, lets talk for a second what risk are we talking about really?

- Are we talking about risks, that is in marching in middle of enemy camp?
No, that is something we will do in both cases, so that cannot be the problem here.

- Are we talking about risk, that whole cult will turn on us and atempt to murder us?
No, that is something we risk aswell, once we start to murder their leaders. laugh

- Are we talking about risk, that we will turn into Mind Flayers? I believe we do. smile
BUT! (And this is important butt!) ... lets not forget about the fact that Minthara was not on the ship with us, nor Gut, nor Ragzlin. This fact is even more proved to us by the fact that this trio, allready have established power base here!
Therefore, logicaly, they was probably tadpolized in the past, even if that would mean few days before us. smile
Therefore, logicaly, until we find out that our tadpole is in magical stasis, we can presume that our clock is ticking ... but theirs should aswell, and until they start turning we should be fine. First in > first out. wink
Therefore, unless we find out what is this whole cult about, we can simply use Minthara, Ragzlin and Gut as countdown device. laugh

So ... that is my reason why my Evil character (that one who cares, btw) dont concider his tadpole a threat.
And once you get to that point, you find out that your characters are in exactly same danger both in Evil, and Good playthrough. wink

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Joining up on the presumption that you'll get power feels too flimsy to me honestly. It feels like it relies on your character making too many assumptions based on circumstantial evidence.
That one is true ...
But i have two arguments against it ...

1) Minthara actualy allready promised us power ... well, technicaly she called that "favour of the Goddess", but is there really any difference? laugh
2) Even if not, to be completely honest ... most of my characters would concider their own assumptions (even those that are vague with no base in reality) to be better source of information than any word from Fanaticaly believing Drow. laugh

Also there is circumstantial evidence that you probably didnt concider. smile
And its the fact that Minthara herself is tadpoled ... longer than you, as i mentioned abowe ... and that would mean, for your character perspective (unless you allready talked with Omeluum), there is certainly *something* that is preventing her metamorphosis ...

And what one obvious thing is differing all the tadpoled NPCs from your party (or potential party members named Karlach)? That is right! They all pray to the Absolute!
Whole cult keeps talking about the fact that their Goddess is keeping them safe, and right in front of you is standing tadpoled Drow proof in the flesh. smile

Of course using metagaming info we know its actualy some kind of Dark Netherese magic ... but is there connection to the Absolute? I believe ewen we can presume that there is, it would be probably more something like *they who call themselves the Absolute* for some reason alterned the tadpole like this ... more than the Absolute is acutal Goddess who is protecting her believers.
But in the end, those are minor details. :P

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If you go with the good path, you're getting an opportunity to remove the parasite, and if that fails then you can just move onto the next opportunity. If you side with the evil path, you get an opportunity to maybe control the parasite, while also surrounding yourself with people who have the ability to mentally manipulate other people infected by the tadpole without their knowing (how will you know if they're doing to you what you may have done to others already?) And if you're wrong then at best you've wasted precious time you could have been searching for a cure and also lost a potential healer in the process.
I believe you are wrong here...
Note that i know that this is pure speculation, since we dont even know what will happen in Moonrise Towers ... even tho some effects of our decisions was allready datamined, but i dont remember. laugh

- If you side with Grove (aka Good), you loose all the options that Goblins are offering ...
Wich as i dare to presume, would be controling the tadpole (or maybe brainwash, and forgeting about it, duno ... but i would be surprised if Larian dont set such trap there)
- If you side with Goblins (aka Evil), you loose only one option to remove the Tadpole ...
And that one is Halsin, all others are still there ...

About mind manipulation ...
If you will see the conversations carefully enough, you notice that manipulation without noticing is possible only on Goblins, and only for those Goblins who have neckage of the Absolute on their necks.
(But some people seem to be convinced that its actualy about the mark they have burned into their flesh by Gut.) smile
Anyway: "As the symbol glows, power courses through you. Authority." wink
(That is BTW another solid proof of the Absolute power in perspective of your character ... since if your tadpole would have power to subdue any mind ... you would be able to use it on anyone. :P)

But back to manipulation itself ...
You can also notice that when you try to use your tadpole powers to litteraly anyone who ALSO have his, or hers own tadpole ... they can notice (therefore there is usualy Wisdom check) ... and in at least one rare case
when you order Gnoll leader to eat herself
, can can disobey your comand, if their Wisom roll is higher ... i mean, their mind is stronger.

In matter of "wasting time" i would just repeat the argument about Minthara = potential countdown machine. smile
So i skip that. smile

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
How much influence do they actually have? How long have they been around? The kind of basic information that would be pretty reasonable for a character to ask upon first encounter. Do we know whether or not this isn't just a bunch of drow with tadpoles who've mentally dominated and intimidated goblins into doing their bidding?
Certainly enough to be the second most powerfull fraction in surface map. laugh
No really ... i mean that is not easy question, no religion have "much influence" in the start ... question here should be more about its potential, and that is huge.

No idea. laugh
But as far as i can say, so far we have not even idea about how long we were on that ship, so ... time seem a little vague here. smile

Well ... we do.
It would certainly be more just bung of Drow, and Goblins, and Hopgoblins, and Dwarves, and Duegars, and Gnolls, and most importantly Illithids.
And even more importantly ... illithinds that had at their disposal at least one completely working Nautiloid ... and lets be honest here, that itself is quite some achievment. smile
Anyway when you decide to interfere with Dror Ragzlin's speak with dead Illithid, he can answer you the question "What is the Absolute?" and if that would be just Drow scam, he would never answer that. wink


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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
That seems like a pretty foolish assumption to make. "Yes evil cult, I totally believe, based off my interactions with Minthara and Dror (who both are arrogant, belittle your character, and give your character commands) that by helping you you'll give me a nice position in the cult and share cult secrets with me."
That certainy dont "seem" like a foolish assumption ...
That IS a foolish assumption! The stupidest assumption i ever heared around here even. laugh

But ...
When you turn it into: "Yes, evil cult, i shall seem to you all like i totally believe, no matter based on what, everything you say ... i shall bow, i shall listen, i shall be good tin soldier you want ... and once i understand hierarchy in your ranks, i shall crawl as high as possible (and that would be on top), and probably will kill you both in the process ... and then your secrets will be mine."
Well ... if that isnt classic mind set of usual Antagonists (aka Evil characters), i dont know what is. laugh

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Regardless of whether such a line needs to be in there, it would make the game better if you could roleplay bargaining with Minthara for your information on the druid grove location. And as @Gray Ghost says, it makes sense that (smart) characters would want to know more about the cult before joining.
I remembered, when i was writing reaction on Gray Ghost ...
(so, if you read the long one, feel free to skip this, since i will just repeat myself in shorten form)

That Minthara actualy is allready promising us power. smile
True, she didnt call it "unlimited potential of the Dark Side" but "favour of our Goddess" ... but when you get that in context with her character, you find out that is just different words for the same thing. smile

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Now i feel like if i scared you both a little. laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Now i feel like if i scared you both a little. laugh
It's more the length of your post and the structure of your paragraphs. To be honest I find your style of writing difficult to read, with all the ellipses and smileys and disjointed paragraphs. So when I saw that incredibly long post and that you referenced it in your reply to me, I just decided "nah" to read neither. I'm not trying to insult you; this is honest feedback about your writing style.

You do give a short form response to my post, so I'll reply to it now that I'm writing something anyway:

I haven't played since Patch 2 or 3, so I don't exactly remember the full dialogue with Minthara. If there is a line where she promises us power, great! But I remember feeling like there wasn't enough of that, a negotiation, or actual info on the cult. Combined with the fact that no one in the cult knows that True Souls actually have tadpoles in their brains, allying with the cult just seemed like an infinitely worse option than rescuing Halsin.

Again, I might be remembering incorrectly or dialogue might have been updated since patch 2 (though I haven't seen much in patch notes to indicate so).

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That's the big detriment to the evil path, none of them actually realise they've got a tadpole sitting on their brain that could turn them into a illithid at anytime. There's also pretty good indications that they're all being manipulated to varying degrees by the tadpoles and whatever is controlling them. Your character's tadpole is different because someone or something tampered with it but on that we have no idea why and there's no indications that the cult's master(s) are behind it. Even for an evil character, except for the psychotic, your best bet is to aid the grove and rescue Halsin. Now you don't have to help the Tieflings but getting to Halsin is presented as your best option with all others getting progressively worse.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Now i feel like if i scared you both a little. laugh
It's more the length of your post and the structure of your paragraphs. To be honest I find your style of writing difficult to read, with all the ellipses and smileys and disjointed paragraphs. So when I saw that incredibly long post and that you referenced it in your reply to me, I just decided "nah" to read neither. I'm not trying to insult you; this is honest feedback about your writing style.

You do give a short form response to my post, so I'll reply to it now that I'm writing something anyway:

I haven't played since Patch 2 or 3, so I don't exactly remember the full dialogue with Minthara. If there is a line where she promises us power, great! But I remember feeling like there wasn't enough of that, a negotiation, or actual info on the cult. Combined with the fact that no one in the cult knows that True Souls actually have tadpoles in their brains, allying with the cult just seemed like an infinitely worse option than rescuing Halsin.

Again, I might be remembering incorrectly or dialogue might have been updated since patch 2 (though I haven't seen much in patch notes to indicate so).
If you didn't play after patch 4 then, sorry, your feedback on the plot is a bit outdated. They patched the plot as well in patch 4, it even was in the patch notes. I can't say how much, I just checked on the start and some mechanics after the patch, but I can tell you that for example the conversation with Nettie after patch 4 has nearly nothing in common with it before the patch.

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Originally Posted by FelLich
That's the big detriment to the evil path, none of them actually realise they've got a tadpole sitting on their brain that could turn them into a illithid at anytime. There's also pretty good indications that they're all being manipulated to varying degrees by the tadpoles and whatever is controlling them. Your character's tadpole is different because someone or something tampered with it but on that we have no idea why and there's no indications that the cult's master(s) are behind it. Even for an evil character, except for the psychotic, your best bet is to aid the grove and rescue Halsin. Now you don't have to help the Tieflings but getting to Halsin is presented as your best option with all others getting progressively worse.
On the subject of other tadpole options, last time I played there was no option to argue with the hag after
You gave up your eye, but the hag failed on her part of the deal to remove the tadpole. I feel like there should have been a dialogue option to demand your eye back, or at least demand something else from the hag..?
Has anyone seen an option like this in more recent patches, or is there still no other option besides accepting the shit deal and/or getting revenge?

I don't count the deal she tries to make when you've almost killed her to count; that's her bargaining for her life and separate from this first deal.

Originally Posted by Zellin
If you didn't play after patch 4 then, sorry, your feedback on the plot is a bit outdated. They patched the plot as well in patch 4, it even was in the patch notes. I can't say how much, I just checked on the start and some mechanics after the patch, but I can tell you that for example the conversation with Nettie after patch 4 has nearly nothing in common with it before the patch.
I recognize that my feedback is a bit outdated. That said, I haven't seen anyone post that the evil path has been fixed whereas I have heard people talk about the Nettie/general Grove changes many times. If someone can tell me otherwise, great!
I also see nothing in the patch notes mentioning the evil/cult route. I do see the "Added reactivity for Druids" section.

Last edited by mrfuji3; 07/06/21 05:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
To be honest I find your style of writing difficult to read
You are not the first, probably nor even last one who feels that way. laugh
But when i tryed to write in usual way, i find out that both readers have problems to grip my thougts, and honestly i was strugling sometimes too. laugh

So i gues we would simply not talk too often. smile
No offence taken ... on both sides i presume. wink laugh

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
[quote=RagnarokCzD]If there is a line where she promises us power, great!
In the very end (10:45 cca) she sais: "we will be the fery first among her Favorites."


But honestly that is not what i had in mind ...
THIS!!! This is what i had in mind!
Time: 1:50 minthara sais: "Tell me what you know, the Absolute will reward us with such power if we find this place!"


And there is even third mention of reward, i didnt find video tho. :-/
Once you say her that the battle is hers to fight ... then you can demand some reward for yourself, she sais if i remember corectly someting like "the Absolute favour will be our reward, what more could you want?" ... and if you insist you can persuate her to pay you some gold for the raid.

BTW as i was searching for theese videos ... i found some older patch recordings ...
And even then Minthara sais "the Absolute will reward us" in the end. laugh

Originally Posted by FelLich
Your character's tadpole is different because someone or something tampered with it
Actualy so far it seems like every tadpole in game was tampered just the same ... so, more probably our character, and companions are simply lucky bcs the proces was interupted. :-/

Originally Posted by FelLich
Even for an evil character, except for the psychotic, your best bet is to aid the grove and rescue Halsin. Now you don't have to help the Tieflings but getting to Halsin is presented as your best option with all others getting progressively worse.
This is the reason why i find this topic so exhausting ...
I spend hours to write down long posts with every little tidbit i found so far ... and then someone new come, just to state the same wrong idea the topic started with ... bcs he simply didnt bother to read previous posts. laugh

Please do. smile
You shall see that your point of view, to put it lightly, could be a lot wider. wink laugh

Originally Posted by Zellin
On the subject of other tadpole options, last time I played there was no option to argue with the hag after
You gave up your eye, but the hag failed on her part of the deal to remove the tadpole. I feel like there should have been a dialogue option to demand your eye back, or at least demand something else from the hag..?
Has anyone seen an option like this in more recent patches, or is there still no other option besides accepting the shit deal and/or getting revenge?
She never keeped our eye, she return in to our skull right after ...

As far as i know, when we start argue about "that was not the deal"
she gives us bunch of her hair, that can be consumed, but it does nothing. O_o
Im not quite sure if that is suppose remove the effect, or if we are suppose to do something else with that. :-/

But since even Volo gives us magical eye to fix our problem, wich can be consumed and also do nothing ... i dare to presume its just buged.


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by FelLich
[quote=Zellin]If you didn't play after patch 4 then, sorry, your feedback on the plot is a bit outdated. They patched the plot as well in patch 4, it even was in the patch notes. I can't say how much, I just checked on the start and some mechanics after the patch, but I can tell you that for example the conversation with Nettie after patch 4 has nearly nothing in common with it before the patch.
I recognize that my feedback is a bit outdated. That said, I haven't seen anyone post that the evil path has been fixed whereas I have heard people talk about the Nettie/general Grove changes many times. If someone can tell me otherwise, great!
I also see nothing in the patch notes mentioning the evil/cult route. I do see the "Added reactivity for Druids" section.

I think this idea of a "path" is something of a false construct. There are things Larian allows to happen here, but what "path" is it if you agree to side with the Goblins and then betray them during the fight at the Druid Grove? I mean you are putting the Grove in danger to help wipe out these goblins for you instead of just taking them out yourself. is that evil, or pragmatic?

You could of course, just ignore the Goblins and the Druids and let them sort it out themselves. You could seek help from any number of other entities, or none at all and just head for the city of Baldur's gate with the hope that someone else may be able to help you.

You can seek power, you can seek allies, you can get involved or not with the Druid/Goblin conflict. You can help Halsin or not, you can visit the Hag or not. You can ally with the Zentarim or kill them or ignore them.

You can explore the depths of the Underdark seeking power and information and allies or not at all. You can talk your way out of 90% of fights or kill everyone.

Everybody acts like you are on some sort of leash but if you look carefully the person holding that leash is you.

This game is amazing in how much freedom it gives you and still people complain about these paths they are making up in their heads.

You have escape the Nataloid before it crashes and you have to fight the Goblins outside the grove. Everything else is up to you buddy.


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@RagnarokCzD Thanks for replying with youtube links and timestamps.
I guess my problem is still that you, as a player, know that the Absolute is mind flayer tadpoles whereas Minthara & Dror clearly don't. So any nebulous promises of "being the first among her favorites" or that "the Absolute will reward us with such power if we find this place!" is questionable at best.

I'm not entirely sure how to fix this, because I agree that the option of "planning to infiltrate this cult to gain power and then possibly betray them" shouldn't be explicitly stated....I suppose I'd be happier if we were able to talk to Minthara more about the cult's goals and specifics on the powers the Absolute grants us. The monetary reward Minthara will apparently grant us is fine, but information about exactly what we're getting into is better.

@Blackheifer You talk about the various different paths in the game, but we're currently only discussing the path where you fully side with the goblins and raid the grove. THE evil path, identified as such by Larian in one of their updates ("75% of you chose good over evil").
I like the variety of those other paths - in particular the updates to the Kagha quest - but I'd argue that the main conflict in the current version of EA (especially since we can't go to the Creche) is whether to side with or against the goblins. And the intelligent option is to side with Halsin.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I guess my problem is still that you, as a player, know that the Absolute is mind flayer tadpoles whereas Minthara & Dror clearly don't.
I believe you mean presume. wink

I mean we dont know what the Absolute actualy is ... it could be Illithid plot, who are pretending to be a God ... but it aswell could be actual God, who is simply using Illithids to reach his own goals. laugh

In my opinion, Larian showed that their writers are capable enough to now blow the main plot if first half hour. laugh

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I suppose I'd be happier if we were able to talk to Minthara more about the cult's goals and specifics on the powers the Absolute grants us.
I would love that dialogue option ...
But i gues my responce would not make you happy ... since if that would be written by me, i would bait such options to dialogues, just so you can blow that you are not actualy part of the cult (since you would know otherwise) ... wich, by the way, is the only thing that keeps them all from attacking you on sight. laugh

But as i said ...
I would love that option to be there. laugh

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
The monetary reward Minthara will apparently grant us is fine, but information about exactly what we're getting into is better.
But that is according to situation impossible. smile


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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