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Originally Posted by Tuco
The overwhelming majority of games going for a day/night cycle actually does it without offering any complex variation on NPC scheduling. The two previous BG included.
And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely.
This is especially true in games where the content is designed rather than "systemic" (i.e. procedural generation and so on).

If anything one would be hard pressed to point the notable exceptions, like Ultima VII, Gothic 1 and 2, etc.

So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really.

Gee, I read your comment, and before I even finished the first sentence I was thinking "What about Skyrim"... I then wondered "At what point were the players given an option about whether or not it existed". So I wasn't particularly hard pressed to come up with one, and I have never seen a poll from a developer asking "do you want D/N cycles w/out NPC schedules, or do we need to add them". It would be fun, I guess, to look back on these to see the results, so can you provide some links to official polls that you're apparently citing here?

So let's see the facts, instead of your statements? I'm not a fan of "it's on the internet, so it must be true".

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Tuco
The overwhelming majority of games going for a day/night cycle actually does it without offering any complex variation on NPC scheduling. The two previous BG included.
And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely.
This is especially true in games where the content is designed rather than "systemic" (i.e. procedural generation and so on).

If anything one would be hard pressed to point the notable exceptions, like Ultima VII, Gothic 1 and 2, etc.

So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really.

Gee, I read your comment, and before I even finished the first sentence I was thinking "What about Skyrim"... I then wondered "At what point were the players given an option about whether or not it existed". So I wasn't particularly hard pressed to come up with one, and I have never seen a poll from a developer asking "do you want D/N cycles w/out NPC schedules, or do we need to add them". It would be fun, I guess, to look back on these to see the results, so can you provide some links to official polls that you're apparently citing here?

So let's see the facts, instead of your statements? I'm not a fan of "it's on the internet, so it must be true".

I would assume the fact that 90% of open world games nowadays have a d/n cycle is enough to guess players at large prefer that to the alternative. And now that i think about it the only games lacking that are from Bioware, which i guess goes hand in hand with BG3 being more of a spiritual successor to Dragon Age than Baldur's Gate.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Gee, I read your comment, and before I even finished the first sentence I was thinking "What about Skyrim"... I then wondered "At what point were the players given an option about whether or not it existed". So I wasn't particularly hard pressed to come up with one, and I have never seen a poll from a developer asking "do you want D/N cycles w/out NPC schedules, or do we need to add them". It would be fun, I guess, to look back on these to see the results, so can you provide some links to official polls that you're apparently citing here?

So let's see the facts, instead of your statements? I'm not a fan of "it's on the internet, so it must be true".
I have no idea of what you are even attempting to say, since hardly anything of your answer ACTUALLY relates to what I talked aboput.
I didn't cite any "poll", but a long track record of games in the genre doing things.
And "Would you prefer complex NPC schedule or NO NPC schedule?" would be a damn stupid loaded question to put to an audience, in general. You aren't really offering any trade off, just asking people "WOULD YOU LOVE TO GE MORE FOR THE SAME PRICE? YAAAY".

Also, aside for the fact that TES/SKyrim is one of these series that rely on systemic content (like their shitty procedurally generate quests) almost as much as designed one, finding ONE notable question isn't exactly enough to defuse an argument.
I said one would be hard pressed to list exceptions, not that they don't exist. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned two myself.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Gee, I read your comment, and before I even finished the first sentence I was thinking "What about Skyrim"... I then wondered "At what point were the players given an option about whether or not it existed". So I wasn't particularly hard pressed to come up with one, and I have never seen a poll from a developer asking "do you want D/N cycles w/out NPC schedules, or do we need to add them". It would be fun, I guess, to look back on these to see the results, so can you provide some links to official polls that you're apparently citing here?

So let's see the facts, instead of your statements? I'm not a fan of "it's on the internet, so it must be true".
I have no idea of what you are even attempting to say, since hardly anything of your answer ACTUALLY relates to what I talked aboput.
I didn't cite any "poll", but a long track record of games in the genre doing things.
And "Would you prefer complex NPC schedule or NO NPC schedule?" would be a damn stupid loaded question to put to an audience, in general. You aren't really offering any trade off, just asking people "WOULD YOU LOVE TO GE MORE FOR THE SAME PRICE? YAAAY".

Also, aside for the fact that TES/SKyrim is one of these series that rely on systemic content (like their shitty procedurally generate quests) almost as much as designed one, finding ONE notable question isn't exactly enough to defuse an argument.
I said one would be hard pressed to list exceptions, not that they don't exist. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned two myself.

If you didn't cite any official polls, then you provided no "facts", but simply made some assertions, and then tried to claim they were facts. I asked you to provide the sources that make your assertions facts. You did state that calling foul on one of your assertions doesn't change the facts, so support the assertion, and lay out the facts, instead of just claiming they're facts, regardless, because you posted it on a forum. That's not how facts work.

Assertion 1: The overwhelming majority of games with a Day/Night cycle don't do it. Citations needed. You're claiming this is a fact, surely you can support it, yes?
Assertion 2: And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely. Citations needed.
Assertion 3: So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really. This needs to be supported. Because looking at what you provided in 1 and 2, and what you're claiming in 3, nothing adds up to "facts", just "but this is what I think, so everyone needs to just agree with me".

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Ok. Here comes a list.

Baldur’s Gate 1
Baldur’s Gate 2
Planescape Torment
Icewind Dale 1
Icewind Dale 2
Temple of Elemental Evil
Pillars of Eternity 1
Pillars of Eternity 2
Pathfinder Kingmaker
Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous
Solasta
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Atom
Might & Magic (entire series)
Wizardry (entire series)
Darklands
Realms of Arkania

I could probably go on for a while. I’m struggling more to remember series I played than to include them to this list, frankly.

Point is: they are all RPGs with a day/night rotation that for one reason or another didn’t really bother to include anything resembling complex NPC scheduling.
As I said the feature is more a rarity than a real expectation for most players.


Now if you want to make the questionable (if not downright spurious) claim that people were angry about it and protested that such a half-assed implementations could as well be removed from these games, you are going to be the one that will need to prove it mentioning a sizable sample of users saying so.

“Exceptional claims need exceptional evidence” and all that jazz.
Otherwise I’ll stand my original point that many ( most, really) would be fine with it.
Especially when the alternative offered would be no day/night cycle at all.

Last edited by Tuco; 08/06/21 12:06 AM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
list of almost every notable crpg in existance that also have day night cycles

i see you didn't put Divinity Original Sin 2 on that list. hmph!

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
If you didn't cite any official polls, then you provided no "facts", but simply made some assertions, and then tried to claim they were facts. I asked you to provide the sources that make your assertions facts. You did state that calling foul on one of your assertions doesn't change the facts, so support the assertion, and lay out the facts, instead of just claiming they're facts, regardless, because you posted it on a forum. That's not how facts work.

Assertion 1: The overwhelming majority of games with a Day/Night cycle don't do it. Citations needed. You're claiming this is a fact, surely you can support it, yes?
Assertion 2: And most people were more than reasonably satisfied with that compromise over the idea of giving up to the feature entirely. Citations needed.
Assertion 3: So "Calling foul" doesn't change facts, really. This needs to be supported. Because looking at what you provided in 1 and 2, and what you're claiming in 3, nothing adds up to "facts", just "but this is what I think, so everyone needs to just agree with me".

In 2008, it was a way to market games. But that faded after a while. It was no longer really the "hot thing" and a lot of people did not like it due to not being able to find things at night. But here is an article that goes over it I found just googling it:
https://www.vg247.com/2020/06/18/game-developers-still-turned-day-night-cycles/

Last edited by Pandemonica; 08/06/21 11:03 PM.
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It's not even a "way to market games" these days, it's pretty much a basic expectation of most open world titles.
Even (and maybe ESPECIALLY) outside of the RPG genre, in fact.

The article linked (which is not really saying a whole lot to begin with) basically reinforces their relevance outside of being "marketing tools", by the way.

Last edited by Tuco; 09/06/21 12:09 AM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Ok. Here comes a list.

Baldur’s Gate 1
Baldur’s Gate 2
Planescape Torment
Icewind Dale 1
Icewind Dale 2
Temple of Elemental Evil
Pillars of Eternity 1
Pillars of Eternity 2
Pathfinder Kingmaker
Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous
Solasta
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Atom
Might & Magic (entire series)
Wizardry (entire series)
Darklands
Realms of Arkania

I could probably go on for a while. I’m struggling more to remember series I played than to include them to this list, frankly.

Point is: they are all RPGs with a day/night rotation that for one reason or another didn’t really bother to include anything resembling complex NPC scheduling.
As I said the feature is more a rarity than a real expectation for most players.


Now if you want to make the questionable (if not downright spurious) claim that people were angry about it and protested that such a half-assed implementations could as well be removed from these games, you are going to be the one that will need to prove it mentioning a sizable sample of users saying so.

“Exceptional claims need exceptional evidence” and all that jazz.
Otherwise I’ll stand my original point that many ( most, really) would be fine with it.
Especially when the alternative offered would be no day/night cycle at all.

Adding to the list with older day/night cycles (of some form or the other) RPGS.

Arcanum (freeking A++ AMAZING GAME. Dynamic dialogue+story content, real-time, turn-based, and a FASTER VERSION OF TURN BASED. Super interesting world and system, incredible music) (2001)
Ultima 7 black gate/serpent isles (1992)
Nox (2000)
Betrayal at Krondor (1993) (The first 3D/dynamically?)
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (2003)
Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines (2004)
Gothic series (2001-)
Neverwinter Nights series (2002-)
Pool of Radiance Ruins of Myth Drannor (2001)

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 09/06/21 12:57 AM.
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Ultima VII, Arcanum and Gothic HAD some NPC scheduling, though.
I was specifically listing games that didn’t.


Also, Bloodlines had no day/night cycle. It was set on a perpetual night (not canonically, but in practice).

I honestly can’t remember what Kotor and both the NWN did with day/night (if they had it at all) despise playing them years ago.


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There's no day night cycle in KOTOR; there isn't a clock. It's just always bright or always dark depending on the planet. NWN has a clock and passing time but IIRC at least for NWN it's mostly cosmetic. Time of day doesn't provide context for any quests or events. I don't recall if shops are closed at night either. But I'd take a cosmetic day/night cycle and passing time over not having a sense of time at all any day. At the very least, I can do things like pulling out the torch walking edgy-looking on the streets, or eating food at 8pm and resting at 11pm and all that rp stuff and pretend that I have a normal eating/sleeping schedule cause in real life I barely have one.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 09/06/21 05:25 AM.

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