Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by Prince Ibrahim
I'd like to hear how YOU handled the Spectator encounter without barrelmancy and without just parking everyone on the high ground. Explain to me, in your infinte wisdom, how you cleverly used the abilities of your party synergistically in order to defeat a Spectator with double eye rays and double HP, as well as the half-dozen charmed 4th level Drow rangers that add into the combat, simply using the spells and weapons the game makes available to that point.
I presume this sentece was meaned for Blackheifer ...
Yet i would like to add my experience.

First time i get to that place, it was from temple side ...
So first thing i found was petrified Drow ... funny enough, my own PC was Drow, and i wondered if i may save the Drow, if i shatter his stone prison ... so i equipped 2H mace and smash the statue for so long, until dead Drow fall to my feets ... then i found loot. laugh
So, as greedy bastard as Galanis is ... i smashed every Drow i found ... i was quite surprised when Spectator jumped on me, and it was huge relief when he de-petrify one of two remaining Drows, and i realized that my greedyness just saved me a lot of throubles. laugh

Anyway, i droped most of them down, since i was Warlock with pushing eldrich blast ... if that was a cheese or not i dunno, nor i care to be completely honest. laugh
And Spectator was locked in fear for multiple rounds bcs of Lae'zel frightening strike ... yes, the gods of dices standed by me that day. smile

In the end it simply dont seemed like so hard encounter.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 04/06/21 08:35 AM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Oct 2020
R
addict
Offline
addict
R
Joined: Oct 2020
Right now the fight is a bit buggy (at least for me). The drows only attack my team, which made the fight much more difficult than before. However, you can still win it without tricks such as bunches or high terrain (mainly because there is no comfortable place to climb).
The most important thing is a good team composition. Shadowheart + Lae'zel are able to kill most of the opponents together during a turn. If you additionally have a druid in your group, there is no opponent who can survive for more than 2 turns (unless you have extremely bad rng).
In addition, it is worth having Gale in your team along with the magic missile amulet to finish everything that ends up with low hp.

Joined: Oct 2017
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2017
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I must have missed it when he provided me his party and class composition, could you link that information for me? make sure it contains his loadout plus available abilities.
Apparently you didn't care enough to ask the OP that yourself, Blackheifer. Niara is right - you didn't answer the OP's question: "how you used the abilities of your party synergistically [...] simply using the spells and weapons the game makes available to that point." It's not about whether the tactics you listed are valid or not, it's that you didn't answer OP's question in a satisfactory manner.

I'm joining this conversation because after all these posts no one has actually addressed what the OP brought up, and I myself am curious about the solutions, if they exist, to his problems. Blackheifer, I think you've been missing Ibrahim's main point the whole time: what Ibrahim is trying to say is that these encounters are poorly balanced. And to support his point, he listed more detailed stats such as enemy damage vs party members' health, enemy in-game stats vs rule book, etc. Not a post in here has actually addressed these details. All I've read is that "oh but this encounter can be avoided" and "you can utilize the environment and/or external circumstances" - none of these have anything to do with party composition, individual party member abilities, and synergy between party members.

I'm getting the main point here is that these encounters are poorly balanced, a point which some folks here seem to be missing, it seems. Whether the OP is accurate or not about whether a fight is avoidable or not, that's not his point at all. I don't know why you keep clinging to that as an argument against the OP.

Imagine voicing your opinion saying that an encounter is poorly balanced, and someone answers you with "but you can avoid it". By saying that you automatically acknowledge that it is poorly balanced. If you don't think it's poorly balanced, you should explain why you think it's not.

Originally Posted by Prince Ibrahim
1) They automatically start with surprise ... AND they routinely violate the 5E rules in ways that make them WAY more powerful (Multi-shot with a crossbow? Exploding arrows at level 4? Infinite uses of Mirror Image?).

2) A Bulette's mean damage on a bite is 30 hp, which is more health than anyone other than Lae'zel has. It bites AFTER using Deadly Leap, so whomever it targets is instantly downed. The Minotaurs somehow get to use Gore and then Multi-attack afterwards (when they don't even have multi-attack as an option).

3) The Spectator should be a CR3 monster (and therefore fairly easy for a L4 party to deal with.) Instead, it has twice as many HP as it should, extra eye rays, more actions than it should (4 eye rays a turn? Really?).

I haven't seen a single post addressing these specific points the OP brought up. Are these duergars indeed violating 5E rules? If they are, is there a good reason for this violation? If the bulette is so deadly, how do you soak up its damage/tank it? What about the spectator, is it violating 5E rules too? And no, I don't think answering these points with "this fight is avoidable" or "but you can exploit this and that in the environment" is satisfactory.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 04/06/21 09:04 AM.

"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
addict
Online Content
addict
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by Try2Handing
I haven't seen a single post addressing these specific points the OP brought up. And no, I don't think answering these points with "this fight is avoidable" or "but you can exploit this and that in the environment" is satisfactory.

So just to be clear, we have one side who is screaming that the Homebrewed extra abilities that players have makes the game too easy, and you have another vocal group that says that the encounters are overpowered - myself I am fine with the balance but I would like to see some of the more exploitative stuff- that players have -removed or tightened up.

But so be it:

Spectator:
Other posters have mentioned specific abilities which are helpful on these fights and party composition that is good for the encounter. I guess you didn't see those? I think Ragnarok mentioned a few that Lae'zel's Frightening strike was extremely effective as well as push attacks from Eldritch blast (Wyll), and Thunderwave(Gale). None of that is Homebrew btw. using potions is apparently homebrew despite being in the DMH so we will leave those out I guess.

Dissonant Whispers is amazing as a spell if you have a GOO lock. A Ranger or Astarion with two handed fighting or a ranged attack is great for hitting multiple drow to break the charm effect.
Shadowhearts Guiding Bolt OR Inflict Wounds upspelled to level 2 is a shocking level of damage, plus her divine channel ability to create a decoy is great for protecting the group by giving disadvantage on attacks against her and party members close by.

Personally at 800+ hours I have used every single party composition imaginable and beaten this encounter with just the abilities we had. Like other experienced players have said, I just don't even think its that challenging. And I don't use barrelmancy or throw people around or use mods.

Bullette -

Ok, this is a rough encounter. Again an optional one but still can go badly. I do agree that the Leap damage and the attack can be a bit much, at best you will lose a party member. The game tries to help you here by placing you in Turn Based mode which you should use to spread the party out and hide if you can.

After that you need to use Lae'zels Frightening Strike, and Shadowhearts Command:Halt abilities immediately and repeatedly.

The surprise issue: Surprise is bugged right now and the Duegar don't always start with surprise, nor do I think its intended that they start with surprise except under really unlucky circumstances. I think you have to see none of them (fail all perception checks) and try to access the boat. I am not 100% sure as while I have had a surprise round here, its not a typical occurrence.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 04/06/21 09:19 AM.

Blackheifer
Joined: Jun 2021
T
member
Offline
member
T
Joined: Jun 2021
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
So just to be clear, we have one side who is screaming that the Homebrewed extra abilities that players have makes the game too easy, and you have another vocal group that says that the encounters are overpowered

They are not contradictory stances, they are two symptoms of the same issue. The homebrewed extra abilities let larian balance the encounters assuming that those abilities would be used every turn. So you have overpowered abilities and overpowered encounters, which makes the combat very swingy and that's not good when combined with RNG and 5e's bounded accuracy. Part of why people complain about the RNG.

Since those abilities do make the game too easy and people don't want insta-win homebrew they try to play without those abilities meaning that the encouters balanced for the OP homebrew are overpowered if you don't follow the insta-win methods.

People would like combat to be balanced so that you get engaging options not insta-win options when using either RAW 5e or larians modifications, which is not currently the case.

You've said you want choice, that's a great position. This is also what the people in this thread want. They want to have the choice to use all the examples you provide and more (5e RAW). Currently they don't feel that they can choose any style they want as they are punished if they choose the wrong one (5e RAW).

So they left feedback of larian to see here, not for you to negate.

Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
addict
Online Content
addict
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
So just to be clear, we have one side who is screaming that the Homebrewed extra abilities that players have makes the game too easy, and you have another vocal group that says that the encounters are overpowered


You've said you want choice, that's a great position. This is also what the people in this thread want. They want to have the choice to use all the examples you provide and more (5e RAW). Currently they don't feel that they can choose any style they want as they are punished if they choose the wrong one (5e RAW).

So they left feedback of larian to see here, not for you to negate.


Ok fair enough, I'd like to understand this better, can you give me an example of choices you can make with single player that would not give you an ability set that would work with this encounter? Assuming level 4, current choices and no mods, no barrelmancy, no cheap stuff, no cheats. Any other limitations?



If you haven't guessed I will replicate those choices and use them to kick this Spectator across the Underdark like a multi-eyed soccer-ball smile


Blackheifer
Joined: Jun 2021
T
member
Offline
member
T
Joined: Jun 2021
Nah, i have no interest in explaining other peoples feedback to you. Based on your posting history I don't think you will be convinced by anything anyone says on the matter so it would be a waste of time for both of us.

Even if i did, the foreknowledge you have about the fight means that it would never be an authentic reproduction of a normal playthrough making the entire process meaningless for this dicussion. Anyone could beat any fight with any restrictions you suggest if they had your 800 hrs of practice.

I was just pointing out the falsehood in your assertion that the issues are completely separate.

You can have a nice day.

Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
addict
Online Content
addict
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
Nah, i have no interest in explaining other peoples feedback to you. Based on your posting history I don't think you will be convinced by anything anyone says on the matter so it would be a waste of time for both of us.

Even if i did, the foreknowledge you have about the fight means that it would never be an authentic reproduction of a normal playthrough making the entire process meaningless for this dicussion. Anyone could beat any fight with any restrictions you suggest if they had your 800 hrs of practice.

I was just pointing out the falsehood in your assertion that the issues are completely separate.

You can have a nice day.


I say good day sir! Ahahaha! laugh

Fair enough, you are right. You could say that for an inexperienced player on the first playthrough who has no experience with D&D this is a rough encounter that will likely result in a TPK. Then again an equal number of people seem to feel they ran into this for the first time and had no problem with it. Maybe there is a common denominator, but just like the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop, the world may never know. ;D

Last edited by Blackheifer; 04/06/21 10:08 AM.

Blackheifer
Joined: Dec 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Dec 2020
Here are some things, I do in the mentioned fights:
With the Bulette it is good to try and get highground, somewhere the Bulette can not jump too - like those mushrooms. Try using Misty Step: Gale and Wyll and OC who is warlock or wizard can get it via their spell list - I would always take that spell, it's really useful to get your squishy spellcasters out of the way and you get an amulet of Misty Step from Mintharas corpse. I normally try mistystepping away with the characters that can do it (to the big mushrooms, that aren't reachable via foot - the Bulette can't jump there) and use spells and ranged attacks to get Bulli down. The character, that doesn't have Misty Step, might die, but you can revive them later. For me, that works well. The problem is, that the Bulette can appear anywhere, that makes it one of the toughest fights for me. You can't really plan ahead. There are some points, where she always appears (like right before that cave, where you find that nice drow armor). I sometimes prepare an ambush there, if I manage to escape her until then - use Lae'Zel as lure, she can survive the best.

The Spectator is a tough one too. I try to keep the spellcasters and ranged attackers in the background and attack with Lae'Zel (or fighter OC). But before that, I make sure to destroy the petrified drow (I did that in my first playthrough, when I saw, that I can do it, because I thought, that if those drow come alive, they are probably not nice ... the chance to meet a Drizzt in the Underdark is pretty slim). You can reach the ones, that can't be killed by a melee (for melee you need a blunt weapon btw) with Eldritch Blast for example, so that you don't need to sacrifice a spell slot. I give the thief (either Astarion or OC) the Misty Step amulet and position them behind the Spectator, poison their weapons with the strongest poison possible (that would be Wyvern) and let them sneak attack - that does a lot of damage.

The Gith patrol I nowdays just barrelmance because I'm lazy and the fight takes so long, but when I try it proper, I position the group up on the highground - preferrably not all together, but spread out a bit. And when they teleport up, I try to get them down again via thunderwave. Lae'zel is normally down with that really hard hitting fighter, because I let her do the talking (everything else wouldn't make sense roleplaying wise if you have recruited Lae). It's tough, but with using everything, I have - fire arrows, poisoned weapons, spells- , I nomally succeed after a while.
The Gith patrol is really hard imo - I find that fight even worse than Bulli.

My least favorite is the spider matriarch though. I find it hard, plus I really hate spiders, so two nogos. I do it anyway even though, I wouldn't need to (you can go to the stone for the Necromancy of Thay via invisibility potion and patience - if mother dearest is right above you, don't grab it, wait until she moved on), because I'm always very proud of me, when I manage to kill the spiders. There, I let Astarion sneak in to destroy the spider eggs (first the one downstairs, then the one on the first plattform and lastly the one on the second - that will automatically trigger the fight, I never managed to do it without the mother noticing me).

I hope, that helps a bit, but I would love to have difficult settings too. I like a challenge, but sometimes, I just want to play out the story and not have to deal with fights, that last half an hour. Tbh, when I use barrels, then mostly to just make the fights shorter (like the group around Dror Ragzlin or the gobbos in the courtyard), because it just takes so long to take them out one by one.


Edit: I forgot, because it'S second natur for me: always use Bless and whatever you have to buff and protect the party. It helps a lot imo.

Last edited by fylimar; 04/06/21 04:55 PM.

"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

Doctor Who
Joined: May 2021
Location: Helsinki
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: May 2021
Location: Helsinki
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think Ragnarok mentioned a few that Lae'zel's Frightening strike was extremely effective as well as push attacks from Eldritch blast (Wyll), and Thunderwave(Gale). None of that is Homebrew btw.

Frightening strike is homebrew though. It is way much stronger that its tabletop counterpart.

Joined: May 2019
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: May 2019
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Well the good news is when the game is fully released they will likely have various modes of difficulty, such as Story mode. So you can simply have a combat experience that meets with your level of expertise and not get stressed about encounters.
No need to be patronizing and make it an issue of "expertise." The issue is that Larian's kind of "challenge" in combat is not really challenging but rather just repetition, tedium, aggravation, and stupidity. And whereas all those things may be great fun for you and some others, there are those of us for whom it is decidedly not fun.

I largely agree with the OP. And I am yet to see anyone actually posting a thoughtful and well-reasoned counter-post, as opposed to just attacking or flaming the OP.

Edit: Okay, credit to @fylimar's last post for being a thoughtful and helpful post.

Last edited by kanisatha; 04/06/21 02:22 PM.
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
addict
Online Content
addict
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by zamo
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I think Ragnarok mentioned a few that Lae'zel's Frightening strike was extremely effective as well as push attacks from Eldritch blast (Wyll), and Thunderwave(Gale). None of that is Homebrew btw.

Frightening strike is homebrew though. It is way much stronger that its tabletop counterpart.

Sorry, the correct name of that ability is Menacing Attack and it appears to work exactly the same as listed in the PHB.

"When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to frighten the target. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn."

What's different?


Blackheifer
Joined: May 2021
Location: Helsinki
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: May 2021
Location: Helsinki
The effect of frightened status is different.


Frightened status (RAW):
A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight.

The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear.

I believe BG3 forces frightened creatures run away and prevent them from using any action. (If they didn't change it recently.)

Joined: Sep 2020
old hand
Online Content
old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
<snip> Even if i did, the foreknowledge you have about the fight means that it would never be an authentic reproduction of a normal playthrough making the entire process meaningless for this dicussion. Anyone could beat any fight with any restrictions you suggest if they had your 800 hrs of practice.
To pull this quote out, I approve of this phenomenon in games. There should be (optional) fights that you're likely to TPK on and have to reload, using foreknowledge to win. That's the beauty of rpg video games: character death doesn't mean you lose a character you were attached to. On a normal difficulty in crpgs, I expect this to happen maybe a couple times per act. If this doesn't ever happen, then the difficulty of the game is too low.

Menacing Attack
In BG3, against a single strong enemy, it's basically an auto-win if it hits (and the enemy fails its ST) since the enemy loses its turn and takes free damage. Then you use Menacing Attack on your next turn, repeating the process.

Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
addict
Online Content
addict
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by zamo
The effect of frightened status is different.


Frightened status (RAW):
A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight.

The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear.

I believe BG3 forces frightened creatures run away and prevent them from using any action. (If they didn't change it recently.)

Oh I see, yeah ok that makes sense. The status debuff Frightened - which doesn't specifically say it forces you to run away - assumes you would run which of course opens you up for AOO. They are literally using the spell Fear - which does force you to flee instead of just the debuff.

On balance I could see how they could imply that, and it does affect us the same way.


Blackheifer
Joined: Feb 2021
P
addict
Offline
addict
P
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by zamo
The effect of frightened status is different.


Frightened status (RAW):
A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight.

The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear.

I believe BG3 forces frightened creatures run away and prevent them from using any action. (If they didn't change it recently.)

The effect I see when I use menacing attack, is a little visual effect around their head, and they stand in place cowering not being able to attack.

Joined: Sep 2020
old hand
Online Content
old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
Originally Posted by Pandemonica
The effect I see when I use menacing attack, is a little visual effect around their head, and they stand in place cowering not being able to attack.
Interesting. Maybe Larian changed it in a recent patch? I suppose it's slightly more balanced than the enemy also running away...

Is anyone else seeing this behavior?

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Niara
Quote
3) There is a Spear you can find that deals additional damage to enemies with multiple eyes and has a chance to blind them. You may have found it by now if you dealt with the owlbear.

Legitimate point, although, I only tried using the spear on a spectator once or twice, and it truly didn't seem to have very much effect at all worth noting; blinding the spectator (when it worked) didn't really inhibit it much. It certainly didn't stop its eye rays. On a related point, I'm generally not a fan of "Here's this overtuned fight, but here is also a special magical maguffin that is only going to be useful in this fight that will make it better." It's a cheap, dull and utterly uninteresting story mechanic and even worse as a combat device.

I got totally zapped in the underdark encounter with the specator and ditn't retry it, but there's another spectator, without drow support, near the cave of the Gnoll encounter. That's an easier fight which I completed successfully. And it' s also my feeling that the Vision-of-the-Absolute-spear did not seem to bring any notable advantage during the combat.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by ldo58
there's another spectator, without drow support, near the cave of the Gnoll encounter.
Seem like someone hit the wrong crate.
laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 06/06/21 09:58 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
Joined: Jun 2019
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
Joined: Jun 2019
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
7) Ending my turn with my ranged weapon in hand instead of my shield (if I have one) and melee weapon because 1) you don't get an Attack of Opportunity against another mob that moves past you or away unless you have a melee weapon equipped - and 2) a shield only protects you if you are holding it and not your ranged weapon- there is a little switch that lets you toggle what you are currently holding.
What's the current cost within the action economy for a ranged player to do this every round?

Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5