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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by timebean
This is not something I enjoy. It is a legit mental block I have. If you try to read text to me that I can see, I am simply compelled to shut your voice out and take over. Yes, I know you are trying to emote and make me care about you. But my brain latches onto written words like a starving tadpole.


What I will say, is that in games that are fully voiced but which also contain the text of large amounts of exposition, I identify that it is such a game, confirm that I will read ahead faster than most speakers will speak, and then, once I've done that, I do one of two things: I either slow down the rate at which I read, listening to the voice and following along at the same pace, and letting myself obtain each word more carefully as I listen, OR, I look away from the text box, and focus on the rest of the screen, looking at the characters, and paying attention to all the other details present, while I listen. It's not hard to do, once you decide to do it - it's not a matter of forcing yourself, so much as resisting temptation and letting things progress at the intended pace, and appreciating it as delivered.

You say you enjoy the game more when it forces you to do this - but it's only a matter of personal decision and a small amount of will power that would allow you to simply do the same yourself with other games. I understand the innate draw; the in-built instinct to read words that are visible; I get that, I do... if you let yourself look at them it can be almost impossible not to; just look away - there will always be other things on the screen that will provide you stimulus to chew through while you listen to what's being presented. If you know you'll enjoy the game more that way - and it sounds like you do - then it's worth doing. If the urge to read is strong enough that you need to practice it, or even to close your eyes, there's nothing wrong with doing that, if it will let you enjoy what a game has to offer more - and please understand I say this coming from a similar position, and with absolute sincerity and good intent.



Not at all offended. All good points.

I have tried similar things, and I sort of make it work. I too enjoy the ones with a little snippet of voice acting for the first few words and then silence --- it is a good balance for me. I still enjoy the games and all that have this type of mechanic...I am just not nearly as immersed in them as I am in other games that are either fully text based OR very cinematic.

People take in information in very different ways. I am a teacher, so I have pretty good experience dealing with students who are visual learners, versus hands on learners, etc. Some of these things are hard to get past, so I have to structure lectures and activities in a way to try to get as many different types of learners as possible engaged. It is no small task!

I guess I think of developing visual media like video games in the same way as developing curriculum materials. The goal is to get as many people as possible invested in what you are offering. But alas...some kids despise lectures, others despise hands on activities, others despise reading. Nothing will ever suit everyone!

Of course --- one could also argue that the goal *should* be to create the absolute best material you can that is true to your vision, even if it appeals to a smaller audience and alienates others. That is also fair --- but that usually applies to AA studios (and in academia, upper level classes).

I still enjoy BG3 overall. I prefer turn-based combat to any other type of combat in games, so that is a huge plus for me. That, added with a more DAO-like cinematic feel is pretty cool imho, tho I can see why some people may feel like they are squishing two very different types of games together by doing this and perhaps watering down both aspects.

I still like cinematics, cheesy as they are. No worse than alot of cartoons I watch, really. And sure...TW3 did amazing cinematics in their game and set a high bar, versus DAO and BG3 which are much more janky and unnatural feeling. But...idk...maybe I am just a bit more forgiving when it comes to games because they offer so many other things. Especially since there have been so many disappointing games in recent memory and this EA has actually been pretty fun for me, personally.

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Originally Posted by Pandemonica
Originally Posted by timebean
This is not something I enjoy. It is a legit mental block I have. If you try to read text to me that I can see, I am simply compelled to shut your voice out and take over. Yes, I know you are trying to emote and make me care about you. But my brain latches onto written words like a starving tadpole.

Cinematics, even when poorly executed, FORCE me to actually shut my brain down a notch and listen and enjoy the characters. So for me, the best games, in terms of immersion, are either cinematic or fully text based.

OMG YES. I have the same problem, it is especially annoying when watching subtitled movies or shows, I am almost subconsciously forced to shut everything out and read the subtitle.

Which is what happen to most non EN native speaker... To be honnest I even don't know what these cinematics looks like... I'm focussed on the french subtitles...

As a consequences, it looks like a waste of time / of money to me and I'm skipping most of them. I'm missing so much french voices in games.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 04/06/21 01:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Which is what happen to most non EN native speaker... To be honnest I even don't know what these cinematics looks like... I'm focussed on the french subtitles...

As a consequences, it looks like a waste of time / of money to me and I'm skipping most of them. I'm missing so much french voices in games.

Yeah they really should have investing in VA work from at least the major European countries. I would assume at least like French, German, Russian. ESPECIALLY if you are a European developer.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Yes. Most of the time cutscenes seem to be generated rather then directed
Generated cutscenes are the perfect approach for a game of this size that doesn't want to compromise TOO MUCH in the amount of variations available.

They clearly have to clean up the system a whole lot more to reach an ideal peak of consistent quality, but generally speaking I think people are being extremely ungenerous in judging what's already there, not to mention occasionally hilariously hyperbolic, if not even outright disingenuous to the point of bordering open dishonesty (see the "five seconds loading for every dialogue" which doesn't fucking EVER happen, unless you are playing on some potato PC with a rusty mechanical HD and maybe not even then).


Generally speaking there's plenty of moments where the (admittedly messy) cinematic angle adds plenty of character and personality even to NPCs that have just a couple of minor lines to say.

Here's a random clip i just recorded as an example (despise the fact that the game decided to fuck with me with some visual artifact on colors here, but let's ignore it:



If you guys are going to tell me that this makes the game feel worse or that it "robs you all of a lot of time without adding anything back" I'm going to call bullshit on you all.

I'm the one who said "five seconds for every dialogue" which you say never happens then link a video with a 5 second dialogue with no reply option. /Boggle

Now wait till we reach Baldur's Gate and we have like 100 npcs in the city and half or more of them are the same as the vid you just linked. That all adds up and imo adds nothing to the game, call BS all you want.

Edit: For the record and as I've stated before, I'm not just trying to hate on BG3. However I personally am not a fan of most mundane moment cut scenes(yeah sure fine for big moments/reveals) and that applies to all games, not just BG3.

Edit 2: 1 Last edit for a final analogy. Scenes like the above are, to me, like driving in rush hour traffic. You move forward a few steps, stop and wait, move forward a few steps, stop and wait over and over. It makes the game flow play jarring and kinda shutter step to me.

Last edited by OcO; 04/06/21 08:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by OcO
I'm the one who said "five seconds for every dialogue" which you say never happens then link a video with a 5 second dialogue with no reply option. /Boggle
You talked specifically about "five seconds of fade to black" before delivery a line and "then another fade to black". Which, yes, it is absolute bullshit.
There's like a fraction of second, probably less than a third, before and after the line is delivered, for setting the camera up close and quickly bring it back.

Also, I'm not speedrunning the game, so any argument about how it would be "faster just reading" falls completely flat as far as I'm concerned, when the delivery and eventually the body language can add to their characters.

Last edited by Tuco; 04/06/21 09:06 PM.

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You really care about the body language and the personality of a character that just has nothing interresting to say ?

No lore, no quest, no informations,... Just nothing.

I'm not.. and I agree that when we'll be in villages and towns. Those cutscenes for nothing will be very boring. I really think they should keep some voice + text without any cutscenes for these NPCs.

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Yes? It's flavor.
Most of what you look at and listen to in a game has absolutely no specific role from a mechanical standpoint. it's eye candy and mood-setting stuff.
Do the NPCs that bow and address you as "my lord" in Kingmaker when you walk around town play a specific role in the narrative or a bigger part in the story? No, they don't.
Are they a nice touch? Fuck yes, they are.

if you are in a rush you can also, you know, not talk to them.

Last edited by Tuco; 04/06/21 09:04 PM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
If you guys are going to tell me that this makes the game feel worse or that it "robs you all of a lot of time without adding anything back" I'm going to call bullshit on you all.
For me, it's not adding enough to warrant the break in exploration. I do find the change in perspective to be disorienting and distruptive, and the game still doesn't make me care or remember the NPCs - just the inconvenience of it. If the reaction would happen in First-Person game without taking away my control - great. Here, not so much.

Here is a hint - if you want "immersive" close up experience, don't make a top down, turn-based RPG.

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Its flavor and adds a little something to the world, not every person would have something extremely useful for the quest but it fleshes things out, adds small details that add to the enjoyment of someone trying to be immersed in the world.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by OcO
I'm the one who said "five seconds for every dialogue" which you say never happens then link a video with a 5 second dialogue with no reply option. /Boggle
You talked specifically about "five seconds of fade to black" before delivery a line and "then another fade to black". Which, yes, it is absolute bullshit.
There's like a fraction of second, probably less than a third, before and after the line is delivered, for setting the camera up close and quickly bring it back.

Also, I'm not speedrunning the game, so any argument about how it would be "faster just reading" falls completely flat as far as I'm concerned, when the delivery and eventually the body language can add to their characters.
Question ... dont you have SSD?
Since it also takes longer in my computer before that "fade to black" actualy fade ... its nothing earthshaking and i certainly dont see it as any huge problem.
Unless the cutscene dont start before i actualy get to see ... that is irritating, since i get: click on NPC > fade to black, with something said > another fade to black > back in game laugh ... so instead a short conversation, i get monologue in the dark laugh

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Originally Posted by teclis23
- I would prefer if all wokeness and political correctness was removed from the game. Completely. The focus should be on producing great content not hitting gender, racial and sexual diversity quotas. The political correctness issue i am referring to is the writing needs to be more shocking raw and impact-full. Larian should be writing whatever they want and not be concerned with some socialist, animal welfare, church group, greenpeace group or feminist group going on twitter because larian hurt there feelings.

I don't actually know what you mean by this, in relation to the game itself. I'm not certain what elements of the game have given you this impression. I'd like to understand what it is that you're taking issue with when you make this point - but simply reiterating it again doesn't convey or communicate that. Could you give some examples of this issue, as it shows up in or applies to Act I of BG3? Could you tell us, in your opinion, what those elements would look like by comparison, with the elements you find objectionable either removed or replaced?


Edit: Apologies for the partial throw-back into an older part of the theead... this is one of those moments when I completely missed that there was still a whole third page of responses that I hadn't seen. Eeek.

Edit2: Back on track to a more present conversation:

To Tuco,

Originally Posted by Tuco
Most of what you look at and listen to in a game has absolutely no specific role from a mechanical standpoint. it's eye candy and mood-setting stuff. Do the NPCs that bow and address you as "my lord" in Kingmaker when you walk around town play a specific role in the narrative or a bigger part in the story? No, they don't. Are they a nice touch? Fuck yes, they are. if you are in a rush you can also, you know, not talk to them.

There is a major difference in the example you're giving and what is being discussed with these little mini-cutscenes - One of them is designed in an immersive, non-intrusive way, and the other is designed in a scene-breaking, absolutely intrusive way. The people who address you in Kingmaker do so atmospherically as you move by them - they don't interrupt what you're doing or lock you into any other form of temporary agency loss. They simply add their atmosphere without affecting you or what you're doing at all. If you choose to click on some of them, they will deliver more lines and sometimes more little animations, that will add more to the sense of setting, but they still do so smoothly, unobtrusively and without interrupting your control of your character. These are the things that make it a game enhancing feature, and they are also the things that are specifically not true of the mini cutscenes in BG3.

In BG3, these equivalent characters do nothing at all unless you deliberately interact with them - saving the ones conveniently placed by merchants who vocally parrot the exact same line ad nauseam every two or three seconds. The rest do not do anything to add to the scene or the sense of atmosphere at all, unless you interact with them; net loss at step one. If you do choose to interact with them, they break your scene, take away control of your character, interrupt whatever else you might have been doing and pull you into several seconds of cutscene with little to see, little to hear, no purpose and nothing for you to do... what value they add to the game as a whole is completely abolished by the empty intrusiveness of their delivery and implementation.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by teclis23
- I would prefer if all wokeness and political correctness was removed from the game. Completely. The focus should be on producing great content not hitting gender, racial and sexual diversity quotas. The political correctness issue i am referring to is the writing needs to be more shocking raw and impact-full. Larian should be writing whatever they want and not be concerned with some socialist, animal welfare, church group, greenpeace group or feminist group going on twitter because larian hurt there feelings.

I don't actually know what you mean by this, in relation to the game itself. I'm not certain what elements of the game have given you this impression. I'd like to understand what it is that you're taking issue with when you make this point - but simply reiterating it again doesn't convey or communicate that. Could you give some examples of this issue, as it shows up in or applies to Act I of BG3? Could you tell us, in your opinion, what those elements would look like by comparison, with the elements you find objectionable either removed or replaced?


Edit: Apologies for the partial throw-back into an older part of the theead... this is one of those moments when I completely missed that there was still a whole third page of responses that I hadn't seen. Eeek.

Edit2: Back on track to a more present conversation:

To Tuco,

Originally Posted by Tuco
Most of what you look at and listen to in a game has absolutely no specific role from a mechanical standpoint. it's eye candy and mood-setting stuff. Do the NPCs that bow and address you as "my lord" in Kingmaker when you walk around town play a specific role in the narrative or a bigger part in the story? No, they don't. Are they a nice touch? Fuck yes, they are. if you are in a rush you can also, you know, not talk to them.

There is a major difference in the example you're giving and what is being discussed with these little mini-cutscenes - One of them is designed in an immersive, non-intrusive way, and the other is designed in a scene-breaking, absolutely intrusive way. The people who address you in Kingmaker do so atmospherically as you move by them - they don't interrupt what you're doing or lock you into any other form of temporary agency loss. They simply add their atmosphere without affecting you or what you're doing at all. If you choose to click on some of them, they will deliver more lines and sometimes more little animations, that will add more to the sense of setting, but they still do so smoothly, unobtrusively and without interrupting your control of your character. These are the things that make it a game enhancing feature, and they are also the things that are specifically not true of the mini cutscenes in BG3.

In BG3, these equivalent characters do nothing at all unless you deliberately interact with them - saving the ones conveniently placed by merchants who vocally parrot the exact same line ad nauseam every two or three seconds. The rest do not do anything to add to the scene or the sense of atmosphere at all, unless you interact with them; net loss at step one. If you do choose to interact with them, they break your scene, take away control of your character, interrupt whatever else you might have been doing and pull you into several seconds of cutscene with little to see, little to hear, no purpose and nothing for you to do... what value they add to the game as a whole is completely abolished by the empty intrusiveness of their delivery and implementation.


For example Astarion is just an in your face overly feminine man, Astarions content that is being written for him is just so woke it isnt funny. I mean why do this?

Also why have cut-scenes that when you camp at night your male npcs want to sleep with you if you are a male PC? This kind of stuff is also being overly represented. Just to clarify i have no problems at all with anyone who is LGQBT, literately at all. The issue i have is that i can tell that Larian is making a huge effort to put this woke stuff in my face. They need to tone is down as myself and most people play video games to escape the real world and politics. I dont want to see politics in video games. Please Larian tone this stuff down.

Also the writing absolutely needs to be darker. Dont try and pander to all age groups and gender and racial groups just write what you want!!!!!! leave politics out of the game!!

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Originally Posted by teclis23
Dont try and pander to all age groups and gender and racial groups just write what you want!!!!!! leave politics out of the game!!

what makes you so certain that this is not exactly the story they want to write? What makes you think that they are just doing it to be 'politically correct'? Maybe they want to write it exactly like this. Have you considered that?

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Originally Posted by teclis23
For example Astarion is just an in your face overly feminine man, Astarions content that is being written for him is just so woke it isnt funny. I mean why do this?

Also why have cut-scenes that when you camp at night your male npcs want to sleep with you if you are a male PC? This kind of stuff is also being overly represented. Just to clarify i have no problems at all with anyone who is LGQBT, literately at all. The issue i have is that i can tell that Larian is making a huge effort to put this woke stuff in my face. They need to tone is down as myself and most people play video games to escape the real world and politics. I dont want to see politics in video games. Please Larian tone this stuff down.

Also the writing absolutely needs to be darker. Dont try and pander to all age groups and gender and racial groups just write what you want!!!!!! leave politics out of the game!!


The funny thing is any of the companions will sleep with ANYBODY, regardless of race, or gender. It's kind of a running joke. Ironically its the complete opposite of woke as it disregards sexuality as a core part of identity completely. A "woke" perspective on sexuality would say that sexuality isn't a choice.

NOW - having said that I agree that the companions are way too aggressive in trying to initiate sex with you. They push for it, putting you in the position of having to reject them. It kind of takes away agency of you maybe choosing not to flirt with them at all.

For myself I consider these to be my co-workers and I really don't want to get involved in inter-office(campsite) drama. Just not good for moral. grin

On top of that they all get up in your business if you do start flirting with anyone and starting acting all jealous - and I am like "Excuse me GALE - but first off I am not Gay so you don't have a chance, and second even if I was what makes you think I would be interested in a guy who looks like a Bad Discount Bin Burt Reynolds!"

So, I hate to criticize Larian because I love those crazy Belgians, but this comes off as - lets call it "writing below the standard I expect from them".

Now as to darker - I think you are referring to the patented "Larian" sense of humor. You should have seen DOS1 - omfg, wall to wall cornyness. eek

In their defense they have moved away from it, but everything still gets a little glaze of it...

Because - funny enough - the content is quit dark if you tally up the themes. see below:

we have:
Genocide
Torture
Cannibalism
Slavery
Whatever is going on with Volo and that Goblin.
Forced impregnation (the tadpole - its a kind of alien violation of your body - see the movie Alien)
Kidnapping
Murder
Theft
Debauchery
Alcoholism
Racism
baby eating

Which is pretty dark stuff. Of course it would help if we had day/night cycles to help set the mood better but that's a WHOLE 'nother argument.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 05/06/21 01:08 PM.

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I never had any single problem with DOS 1 humor or weird overall style, to begin with.
it was their own setting, so they had every right to give it their own vibe.

And I don't even think that something being purposefully bizarre, cartoony or whimsical should necessarily count as a negative in general terms.

It's a different story when you are dealing with someone else's IP. In that case you are expected to match the vibe and tone of the universe you are becoming a part of.
Unless your work is explicitly meat to be some sort of spin-off/parody.


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Originally Posted by teclis23
Dont try and pander to all age groups and gender and racial groups just write what you want!!!!!! leave politics out of the game!!

By the way, Astarion is a xenophobe.

I don't think Larian is pandering to american players. Bi characters are in many games, so people have a choice. But it doesn't make the characters lighter and softer, and it doesn't really affect their personality. This is why many complain that the phrases or scenes do not change for a player of a certain gender.

As for the cutscenes, I like them. Seriously, the facial animations, the gestures, the acting, everything here looks good. There are glitches, but this is EA, so...
But you seem to be discussing the content itself? Dialogues? They seem to be done in a rather classical manner, don't they? I would say this is like DOS2 + DAO. Many of the dialogues at the moment just reveal the identity of our companions, and I would like to see more.

Dialogues outside of the camp definitely work in an incorrect way, when you can get only one opinion. I also want them to get involved in situations more often.

I believe that only Astarion and Lae are aggressive with regard to "sex", and this is in their personality. I have never seen a girl write here that Lae is too aggressive and persistent. Are you sure problem is characters, not in you? You are literally asking for a change their personality that would suit your tastes. Their aggression is not a tribute to LGBT people. It's not about that.


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Astarion is a feminine...eh?

Asterion is a rouge who survives by being sneaky and cunning. He has an aristocratic background, so joshing around with you over a few brewskies is not his style. Sorry. Dude has been tortured for 200 years and might be a bit emo for it. So he does not flash his hairy chest and beat the ground while grunting to appear masculine enough. He also digs killing and drinks the blood of his enemies. But yes...total wussy man. I recommend Captain Chronos Vampire Hunter for a great old movie about a total badarse who is not a beefcake near bursting out of his shirt when flexing. Or any number of "manly" characters who are total monsters when handling a sword with finesse, yet can also solve problems with their guile rather than headbutting them like a rabid elk in heat.

Gale is a classic academic, and I assume from the lore that is what wizards are. Studious, cocky, and well-spoken. The reason Gale can string more than three words together when forming sentences is because he spent his life studying to be the greatest wizard in the world. He also doesn't need to hide his intelligence behind grunts and over-oiled biceps because if you frack with him, he will electrocute you until your skin melts off while still reading his book. No, he is not Wolverine or the Hulk. He doesn't have to be.

Wyll is about as "bro" as you can get. He likes to talk about battles and being a hero and banging a hawt demon. He has all the the smarm you could want, and even refers to himself int he 3rd person (uggg). He has a neck tho, so maybe he is not masculine enough either. Welp ---there is always WWE 2K22.

Yes --- they all hit on you at the tiefling bonfire and it is creepy. I agree 100%. But it is the easiest way asset-wise to assure that the player can romance whoever the hell they want in the game. Blame Larian for being cheap about it, sure. Blame them for not spending more time developing actual connections between you and the companions, sure. But claiming the game is"woke"? It is such a nothing word at this point.

Last edited by timebean; 05/06/21 12:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by timebean
But claiming the game is"woke"? It is such a nothing word at this point.

There have been so many people trying to ask this person repeatedly to explain his stance, and getting only more buzzwords about "woke" this and "politics" that in return. The fact that several people are still searching for signs of intelligent life here restores my faith in humanity... Mostly.

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Not to be that guy, but what is an example of a fantasy RPG, cRPGs especially, that doesn't have some politics or political stuff in it WHILE having a story and characters...? It is kinda a thing that is hard to avoid with writing longer stories, and even if something is not intended one can often read into subtext and find something political with anything?

Also this is extremely off topic.

Last edited by CJMPinger; 05/06/21 01:27 PM.
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