Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Let's talk about SHOVE.

And no, it's not about the action economy, this time.
(I mean, feel free to mention it again if you want, but it's not specifically what inspired this thread).

This is about something I noticed since even before the EA started, looking at the early showings of the game Swen did in a couple of occasions.
It bothered me from the very first minute, but I had more pressing concerns so I mentioned it on passing a couple of times and just moved on.

Why the hell did they go for a "somewhat realistic" overall look for the game and then decided that the implementation of "shove" should be lifted straight from some Wil E. Coyote cartoon gag?
The shove action is supposed to knock a character prone five yards away (if on a plain surface) or to throw the poor bastard down a precipice, mostly in a straight vertical fall.

So WHY we have these ridiculously pronounced arcs? Why can characters fly few meters away on a plain surface and literally TENS of meters away when some altitude is involved? Are they being thrown with a trebuchet?

Does this enable some particularly compelling gameplay scenario I'm failing to notice? You guys tell me, because my instinct would drive me to answer with a hasty "Fuck no".
Does this "look better? Highly debatable and strongly subjective, but IF ANYTHING I'd be tempted to argue the opposite: it looks ridiculous and it cheapens the immersion on the scene and the believability of the action.

SO, why Larian? WHY?
WHY are you so hellbent in injecting as much "whimsical an' whacky Divinity" as possible in your D&D game, even when no real practical benefit seems to come from it?

I'm just trying to understand, really.

It's for the LOLZ I guess? Looks good in live streams? Is appealing/fun to gamers who maybe don't usually consider playing CRPGs? I don't know...

I just get the feeling they simply can't help themselves when it comes to putting their stamp/making changes on/to a system which already has pronounced rules. The injection of humour/silliness at every possible opportunity gets tiring very quickly IMO.

We were just discussing this in the discord and the consensus was that it's funny. I mean, I know it's wrong but I can't help having fun with it. To me it's balanced by the fact that the enemy gets the ability to do it as well as a bonus action and I have 100% been yeeted right off a cliff.

And I found that extremely funny as well...because "death is the biggest joke of all." - The Comedian

Not really sure what this thread is about but shove is not the only mechanic that visually looks like a cartoon gag.
We could also talk about dipping, jumping, throwing, falling asleep, slipping on grease, the amount of blood, animals climbing ladders,...

Shove is fun but once again when someone told you a joke 100 times... You're not laughing anymore.
Like many other things I think it would be more interresting if it was a tactical decision that may be fun rather than a joke you're doing over and over again.

It's not really cryptic. It seems to me that the topic is quite explicitly explained.
It's about a mixture of questionable visual presentation AND questionable mechanical chances.

And let me guess: for the sake of this sudden fondness for comedy, you would HATE if it looked somewhat convincing and falling bodies behave like actual falling bodies (you know: like, actually falling down rather than floating horizontally for several meters before tracing an arc).

I think it’s just a generous application of “rule of cool”.

Curiously I just google the term to make sure it means what I remember it meaning, and I run by This.

In my personal subjective opinion Larian fails to apply point 3:

But at the same time they apply point 2 pretty well. Opening ship sequence is so unnecessarily ridiculous it does set “anything goes!” mood pretty well.

I'd say it also fails the primary goal of the rule of cool, which is to, you know, look cool.

Rule of giggle then?

@Tuco Shove & possibly Throw (can't remember if it already has one) needs a strength handicap. Just like how higher strength can jump farther. Truthfully it should be skill based but I don't think jump is.

I'm not on my PC ATM so I can't look it up but I'm pretty sure there is a skill called athletics.

Here's your problem, sadly, Tuco.

Sven's, and by extension his team's, design philosophy has zero actual interest in immersion in scene or believability of action. The very idea that those might even be concepts, let alone ones that people consider to be important ones, is seemingly quite alien to him - to the extent that it needed to first be brought to his attention, and then explained laboriously, to have any hope of being conveyed, and even then, it was just laughed off and brushed over, likely because he actually *didn't* understand what was being posited. "Badgers 'teleport' into wicker cages - it's a funny and cool way to cheat the game and exploit it! We want to showcase that, because we're Proud of it!" Remember - that's his, and by extension his team's, perspective. That's the uphill battle that feedback faces... and it's a nigh insurmountable summit, it seems.

So, why did they decide to do it that way? Because that is what defines them to their very core, seems to be the unfortunate answer.

But I still appreciate another thread raising the complaint and adding one more voice against it.

Yup, I am also very saddened by not just the action economy of the shove, but the physics implementation. I think you should have the option to shove an enemy five feet away from you, OR to "trip" them prone so to speak. And it should cost an action.

Yeah it can be funny.

But when a Wizard with 8 str can backhand slap someone and send them flying, where does that leave an ogre doing the same shove? Maybe it would be MORE fun if the power shove was reserved for actually strong creatures, while also making more sense.

Jokes grow old pretty fast when you overuse them.

Sometimes I think Larian not making a game but a Twitch Stream Meme Machine.

It does seem to be part of Larian's overall design philosophy to make practically everything over the top.

I mean what is up with going "Super Saiyan 3" for hitting the Dash action.

I don't want to fully bring that other discussion to this thread, but TO ME, it is kinda the same with the thread about cut scenes...it is over done.

Now I never played any of Larian's other games, and I do see others stating that this is all par for the course with Larian.

I can understand and even accept some levels of zany/wild in my "serious games"...I'm a huge fan of all of the Fallout Games. But Larian's methods really are just a bit to much imo and that ends up subtracting from the overall experience.

Edit: spelling

Enough players have expressed that they love shove as is. So I'm confident were stuck with it.

Soft changes definitely would make it more palatable, such as being a full action or being a contest.

I just think we need to take it up to 11. There should be a Feat for increasing the shove distance x 2 and allowing you to use a persons body as a projectile to attack someone else with for XD6 where X is the size class of the creature you are shoving. Both the creature you shove and the victim take this damage.

Maybe even some Shove-related equipment, like a Codpiece of Shoving which shoves the person but also leaves them poisoned or frightened for 1 minute after. Prevents spellcasting.

or even a "Flaming Codpiece of Shoving" that also lights them on fire for 1-3 turns doing 1d4 per turn fire damage.

You're probably like: "Why a Codpiece, why not gloves?" - Because everybody shoves differently ok?

'Codpiece of Shoving' hahahahaha...brilliant. I want one.

You know what, at this point, "why not a Codpiece"? Honestly it makes as much sense to me as some of the other general design decisions and would be consistent with most everything else being "over the top".

I am afraid John Oliver bought that one

+1 for this thread being a hilarious read

I like how a feedback thread casually turned into this compilation of super funny comments. Even I get tired of all the intense, super serious arguing. Off topic but I want to say thanks to you guys for brightening up my day a little.

^ Sometimes this is just the perfect attitude to have in life.