Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Dec 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2020
I would just so much rather have the option to shove things prone, so my melee will actually get to *do something* other than camping on high ground and blocking/shoving off enemies going for my ranged.

Once melee characters start unlocking extra attack, people are going to start realizing that all the current iteration of shove does is prolong the hell out of fights. Sure, the enemy takes fall damage and probably can't retaliate against you, but it's also several turns that your melee can't beat the shit out of them either. Or, in Larian speak, there's a VERY good reason why most people used Teleport and Nether Swap to set up a wicked offense rather than warping things away, and the most optimal builds almost always included a 2 level dip in Aeroteurge for the sole purpose of learning both skills.

(And this is also something I will argue that EA locking us to level 4 is a very bad thing for testing purposes, when level 5 gives us skills that could drastically change the game's flow of combat.)

I'm also pretty sure everyone would agree that getting advantage rolls by shoving something prone and then attacking right afterwards is several degrees far less stupid than leapfrogging over their heads for backstabs. Especially since the former is far more strategic in that one successful shove prone = ALL of your melee attackers get advantage rolls against that target until said target's next turn, at the cost of a single party member's action/bonus action. Whereas the backstab option eats everyone's bonus action to jump behind the enemy, and it looks incredibly stupid/immersion-breaking to watch your entire front line re-enact some stupid 'nothing personnel kid' meme at the same time.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 08/06/21 09:59 AM.
Joined: May 2021
D
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
D
Joined: May 2021
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by Tuco
Why the hell did they go for a "somewhat realistic" overall look for the game and then decided that the implementation of "shove" should be lifted straight from some Wil E. Coyote cartoon gag?

IF ANYTHING I'd be tempted to argue the opposite: it looks ridiculous and it cheapens the immersion on the scene and the believability of the action.

Here's your problem, sadly, Tuco.

Sven's, and by extension his team's, design philosophy has zero actual interest in immersion in scene or believability of action. The very idea that those might even be concepts, let alone ones that people consider to be important ones, is seemingly quite alien to him - to the extent that it needed to first be brought to his attention, and then explained laboriously, to have any hope of being conveyed, and even then, it was just laughed off and brushed over, likely because he actually *didn't* understand what was being posited. "Badgers 'teleport' into wicker cages - it's a funny and cool way to cheat the game and exploit it! We want to showcase that, because we're Proud of it!" Remember - that's his, and by extension his team's, perspective. That's the uphill battle that feedback faces... and it's a nigh insurmountable summit, it seems.

So, why did they decide to do it that way? Because that is what defines them to their very core, seems to be the unfortunate answer.

But I still appreciate another thread raising the complaint and adding one more voice against it.

Why did they create that opening cinematic though? If you are going to make an Austin Powers movie, why advertise it as a James Bond movie? Why not have all the cheesy physics-ignoring zaniness in the cinematic trailer if that was the feel they were going for in the game?

Joined: Apr 2021
V
member
Offline
member
V
Joined: Apr 2021
Originally Posted by Droata
Why did they create that opening cinematic though? If you are going to make an Austin Powers movie, why advertise it as a James Bond movie? Why not have all the cheesy physics-ignoring zaniness in the cinematic trailer if that was the feel they were going for in the game?
Because that was a promise they’ll depart from DOS wacky style. A promise which happened to be fulfilled only partly.


Romances in RPGs brought us to this
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Tuco Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
In the end there isn't really much to say about this.
The question is just: Is Larian even just PRETENDING to make an effort into making their visual representation have some degree of verisimilitude OR they genuinely couldn't give less of a damn and the wacky/zany/cartoony vibe is exactly what they are chasing after?

Given the mixed vibes so far, I'm not even sure they have decided this themselves, yet.

Also, aside for the impromptu "Lul, shit is funny" is anyone ACTUALLY willing to argue that the current implementation adds something to the game, while more "grounded" physics for falling bodies would impoverish the game somehow?


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by Tuco
In the end there isn't really much to say about this.
The question is just: Is Larian even just PRETENDING to make an effort into making their visual representation have some degree of verisimilitude OR they genuinely couldn't give less of a damn and the wacky/zany/cartoony vibe is exactly what they are chasing after?

Given the mixed vibes so far, I'm not even sure they have decided this themselves, yet.

Also, aside for the impromptu "Lul, shit is funny" is anyone ACTUALLY willing to argue that the current implementation adds something to the game, while more "grounded" physics for falling bodies would impoverish the game somehow?

Well the foundation of the move is already silly - I mean I was sort of joking with my post but also highlighting that the only feasibly way to shove someone AFTER you attack them is: if after you swing you leap crotch-first right into their face which would explain the bizarre trajectory of the "shove". The point that has been made a 1000 times is "if you could just shove someone why would you not just attack again?"

And so if we are going to be silly I say stick with it. In Multiplayer its a great source of humor. I know that's not your thing, but really anything that makes combat more over-the-top is a boon to multiplayer.


Blackheifer
Joined: Apr 2021
Location: Australia
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2021
Location: Australia
After I roll a 1, miss completely, hit for pathetic damage, or otherwise get my ass handed to me in a fight, I find using Shove very satisfying.
But, that's generally the only time I use it - either to take my frustrations out on the enemy I'm fighting, or as a last-ditch effort to shove it away from my healer or a character about to die.

I'm with you on the physics, though - it's a little TOO satisfying sometimes. smile

Last edited by Alexandrite; 09/06/21 12:38 PM.
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
The point that has been made a 1000 times is "if you could just shove someone why would you not just attack again?"
In the other-game-that-shall-not-be-name I used shove (usually prone) to break engagement - usually a melee character breaking engagement for wizard so she can cast a spell in her turn without disadvantage or wasting spell resource for Misty Step.

Again, not complexity present in BG3 due to everyone, always having misty step in form of jump.

Attack vs shove vs disengage is a DPS over utility over positioning. And valid tactical decision, if game is well balanced. But that discussion isn't about action economy, not what OP is talking about.

As to over-the-top arcs - I think itmakes shove more universally useful. If it was less pronanounced, then shoving people of cliffs would be harder, and fighting for the advantage is the main mechanic that BG3 revolves around right now. Compare it to game-that-shall-not-be-name, where I found so far handful occasions to push people down the cliff. I think that's more satisfying when it happens rarely, but restrain is not something Larian goes for.

Last edited by Wormerine; 09/06/21 12:55 PM.
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Online Content
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
2 possibilities with shove in BG3 according to me :

- shove more or less as it works now but as an action.
- shoving become way more difficult than now and really rely on skills but is still a bonus action.

Ofc it would be awesome to be able to shove to prone.

As Wormerine said it would add depth to combats and synergies between our characters (advantage for melee, move arround without triggering an AOO, delete the threatened status).

I really think DnD can be adjusted to suit a wide audience of players... from more casual players to hardcore players, solo and multiplayer, players that want a deeper game and players that just want fast fun..... Don't forget to send me a PM is you want ideas Swen !

Last edited by Maximuuus; 09/06/21 03:18 PM.
Joined: Jan 2017
G
addict
Offline
addict
G
Joined: Jan 2017
By RAW, prone characters can still take opportunity attacks, but they would have disadvantage. But I think I remember them incorrectly coding prone as incapacitated in this BG3; so if they don't fix that, then shoving to prone would prevent opportunity attacks.

Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Tuco Offline OP
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Let me stress that this isn't meant a a thread to debate the action economy of shove or its effectiveness as an alternate option to attacking ( I mean, we can do that too if you care that much about it, but it has be done a million times already).

This is specifically about the visualization/physics of the gesture.


Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And so if we are going to be silly I say stick with it. In Multiplayer its a great source of humor. I know that's not your thing, but really anything that makes combat more over-the-top is a boon to multiplayer.
Genuine question.
And I'd like an answer without memes, without jokes, without defending something just because "Well, it's already there so let's pretend to enjoy it how it is".

Do you think that playing the same exact situation in multiplayer (shoving someone and watching him fall to his ruin ten meter below) but with a body that fell behaving like an actual body (rather than as a straw puppet inflated with helium bags) would be detrimental to your enjoyment of the scene?

Last edited by Tuco; 09/06/21 03:55 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Joined: Nov 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
I think the visual and the mechanics for me would be tied, or rather what I mean is I want both to be toned back. Visually and mechanically for it to not send people flying. Perhaps have the distance calculated based off strength score or something for this homebrew, but for most characters it is kinda ridiculous to be able to send someone THAT far. (That and if Mage Hand must have shove, which I don't want it to, it should be a lot weaker of a shove than a fighter doing it. )

Joined: Jan 2017
G
addict
Offline
addict
G
Joined: Jan 2017
For my part, I don't find the over-the-top shoving at all humorous. It just looks dumb.

The game feels like it doesn't know what it wants to be. On the one hand, the over-the-top shoves, jumps, explosions feel like I'm watching Wile E. Coyote. On the other hand, the level of detail in the ubiquitous cutscenes makes it seem like they're going for realism. The two aesthetics don't feel compatible to me.

There's nothing wrong with going cartoony, but if that's what Larian wants, I really wish they would go all-in on that. Cartoony isn't my preference in a RPG, but I would much prefer a cartoony game made consistently than a wishy-washy one. If they try to make this game all things for all players, it's just going to be mediocre for everyone*.

*Some folks aren't going to care about the incompatible aesthetics; how fortunate for them.

Last edited by grysqrl; 09/06/21 04:16 PM.
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Mar 2021
Location: Austin, TX
Originally Posted by Tuco
Let me stress that this isn't meant a a thread to debate the action economy of shove or its effectiveness as an alternate option to attacking ( I mean, we can do that too if you care that much about it, but it has be done a million times already).

This is specifically about the visualization/physics of the gesture.


Originally Posted by Blackheifer
And so if we are going to be silly I say stick with it. In Multiplayer its a great source of humor. I know that's not your thing, but really anything that makes combat more over-the-top is a boon to multiplayer.
Genuine question.
And I'd like an answer without memes, without jokes, without defending something just because "Well, it's already there so let's pretend to enjoy it how it is".

Do you think that playing the same exact situation in multiplayer (shoving someone and watching him fall to his ruin ten meter below) but with a body that fell behaving like an actual body (rather than as a straw puppet inflated with helium bags) would be detrimental to your enjoyment of the scene?


Ok fair enough. The true answer is I don't have much invested in it being one way or the other. You could change it to make it more realistic and it wouldn't really make any difference to me. I may not even notice if it was actually changed in a future update and I assure you it wouldn't affect my enjoyment of the game.



"I have often said, and oftener think, that this world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel — a solution of why Democritus laughed and Heraclitus wept"

-Horace Walpole


Blackheifer
Joined: Jun 2021
C
stranger
Offline
stranger
C
Joined: Jun 2021
Finally made an account because I had to say how much I agree with this post. Shoving people is fun in the short term but invalidates strategic positioning and class abilities namely long term fun.
I really hope they pivot on this, shoving should be an action and it should only push people back 5 feet (maybe more if a high strength character) .

Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
The insta kill or high damage locations are so common it needs to be harder to pull off.

Distance needs to be shorter. Only inhumanly strong creatures (Str 20+) should be able to do the cartoony shoves. Strength needs to matter more. Gale has no business shoving minotaurs around with a negative Str modifier.

Enemies need to be smarter to avoid ledges.

And it needs to be an attack action.

Maybe there could be a reaction to step away from a ledge if someone is trying to push you down. If they fail, you can attempt to shove them on your turn. Put some risk in shove attempts so it's not such a no brainer move to attempt all the time.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5