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#776652 12/06/21 05:28 PM
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A main component of the Sorcerer class is that you were born with magic, rather than learning it as a Wizard does, or given magic like a Warlock is. The origin of your sorcerous powers a big part of character creation and can affect how you play the game. With that in mind, how many origins will Larian include? Will they stick to Draconic and Wild Magic origins only or introduce the other origins as the game has progressed. Feel free to comment.
I for one would like to see Lae'zel's reaction to a Red Dragon Sorcerer and be genuinely confused about how that works. Given the history between the Githyanki and Red Dragons, it might make for an interesting conversation.


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Honestly, I hope they add all the current subclasses but I realize that is a bit greedy and unrealistic. Also I second the idea of allowing us to get a little more specific with our Sorcerous origins (and Warlock patrons) BUT I also would like to keep it vague so we can properly make our own backstories.

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How would that play out in game though? Beyond a few dialogue choices, how would it be distinguishable from a Wizard apart from a different spell list? Do we really need to have classes that replicate each other's function from a gameplay perspective? The game would probably have been better allowing for subclass specialisations to be made in your build to accommodate these class similarities but Larian don't appear to have gone down that road sadly.

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Personaly i can confrim that play Sorcerer and play Wizzard is quite different experience ...
Even tho if you really try, you can possibly make them quite simmilar aswell. :-/


I have only two things to Sorcerer class ...
First im really curious about Wild Magic, bcs that thing can be REALLY wild. laugh
And second ... i really hope that if we choose to have draconic herritage, we will actualy get some scales on our body, at least optionaly. :3


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Let me put it another way then. A Fighter usually comes from humble beginnings and has an innate affinity for the martial arts, a Knight is a noble who has been trained from a young age in those same arts. From a visual perspective both classes are identical. They both use Swords and shields, they both wear armour. and they both use hack and slash animations. Where's the difference from a gameplay perspective? I'm using these because they're the martial analogues to the Sorcerer and Wizard.

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Originally Posted by Chief_Jericho
Let me put it another way then. A Fighter usually comes from humble beginnings and has an innate affinity for the martial arts, a Knight is a noble who has been trained from a young age in those same arts. From a visual perspective both classes are identical. They both use Swords and shields, they both wear armour. and they both use hack and slash animations. Where's the difference from a gameplay perspective? I'm using these because they're the martial analogues to the Sorcerer and Wizard.
Your comparison isn't valid. Both fighter and knight would need some training and would be able to control their martial art abilities. While a Sorcereer and a Wizard are more like a fish and a human who learned to swim. The first one would swim just because that's how it lives, and the second one can leave this kind of occupation entirely. So returning from comparisons to game mechanics: Sorcerers are well known for spontaneous spellcasting and effects till narrative "my sorcerer just accidently puked with a fireball", plus they have some effects coming from their ancestry.

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I think that his point was more about the practical difference in how they play in mechanical terms. Not about the "in-lore justification" of where their power comes from. Which is frankly little more than "added flavor" on top.

Last edited by Tuco; 13/06/21 12:04 PM.

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Tuco #776770 13/06/21 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco
I think that his point was more about the practical difference in how they play in mechanical terms. Not about the "in-lore justification" of where their power comes from. Which is frankly little more than "added flavor" on top.
My answer is exactly about the practical difference in short. Their ancestry doesn't come as just "in-lore justification", it has effect on how and what they cast mechanics-wise.

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Well with that point of view, you can also say that all classes are just figher / archer / caster ...
Maybe with potential merges between them.

But that is not quite true.

You see by the basic difference that Wizzard is using Intelligence, and Sorcerer is using Charisma ... you can see that Sorcerers will excel in Social situations, but Wizzard will have easier rolls in Knowledge situations. smile

Then, if im not misstaken, there are spells for Wizzard and Sorcerer respectively, that other one cannot use.
(actualy Wizzard can right now, since he is able to learn litteraly anything that he find on scroll ... but we dont know it that would be a feature in final game, or if that is simple bug)
But again, as far as i know, Wizzard have much more utility spells than Sorcerer, wich is more focused.

Then ... but once again, unless i remember it incorectly ... there is the fact that Wizzard is preparing his spells for each day (right now in EA any time), but Sorcerer have all spells ready all the time ... so while Wizzard can have completely different list of spells prepared on each fight, Sorcerer have to work with what he have. smile

And last, but certainly not least ...
There is Metamagic for Sorcerers, that allows them to spend another resource to altern casting spell even futher ...
At 3rd Level, you gain the ability to twist your Spells to suit your needs. You gain two of the following Metamagic Options of your choice. You gain another one at 10th and 17th level.

You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted.

Careful Spell
When you Cast a Spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.

Distant Spell
When you Cast a Spell that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double the range of the spell.

When you Cast a Spell that has a range of touch, you can spend 1 sorcery point to make the range of the spell 30 feet.

Empowered Spell
When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls.

You can use Empowered Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.

Extended Spell
When you Cast a Spell that has a Duration of 1 minute or longer, you can spend 1 sorcery point to double its Duration, to a maximum Duration of 24 hours.

Heightened Spell
When you Cast a Spell that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its Effects, you can spend 3 sorcery points to give one target of the spell disadvantage on its first saving throw made against the spell.

Quickened Spell
When you Cast a Spell that has a Casting Time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the Casting Time to 1 Bonus Action for this casting.

Subtle Spell
When you Cast a Spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal Components.

Twinned Spell
When you Cast a Spell that Targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).

To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, Magic Missile and Scorching Ray aren’t eligible, but Ray of Frost is.

(copied from: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Sorcerer#content )


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Originally Posted by Zellin
My answer is exactly about the practical difference in short. Their ancestry doesn't come as just "in-lore justification", it has effect on how and what they cast mechanics-wise.
Ok, fair enough. Then why don't you answer his question listing these practical differences with something that is not "One had to learn magic and the other was born able to do it", which is frankly mechanically irrelevant.

Admittedly I'm not exactly up to date with the nuances introduced in 5th edition, but as far as I know the main difference between mage and sorcerer (aside for relying respectively on INT or CHA as main stats) has always been that the former has access to way more spells and more powerful ones in relation to the current level, while the latter can use more spell slots per-day before resting.


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That spell list looks to me like it's a support class for a Wizard, but given the restriction of a four man party, why would I bring a class that supports another class rather than one that applies direct damage and/or keeps my party alive? This is the point I'm making. What's the practical benefit of this class being in this game? If my party was six or eight I could see the benefit but with a hard limit of four, I can't.

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I have honestly no idea what are you talking about ...
What supports another class? O_o

Are you talking about metamagic?
That is how Sorcerer buffs his own spells ... not anyone else. O_o


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Ahem.
So the subclasses for the Sorcerer are as follows as of 5e.
Aberrant Mind
Clockwork Soul
Draconic Bloodline
Divine Soul
Shadow
Storm
Wild Magic
Draconic and Wild Magic are the default ones available in the Player's Handbook. Do you think we could see the others appear?


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Tuco #776784 13/06/21 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Ok, fair enough. Then why don't you answer his question listing these practical differences with something that is not "One had to learn magic and the other was born able to do it", which is frankly mechanically irrelevant.

Admittedly I'm not exactly up to date with the nuances introduced in 5th edition, but as far as I know the main difference between mage and sorcerer (aside for relying respectively on INT or CHA as main stats) has always been that the former has access to way more spells and more powerful ones in relation to the current level, while the latter can use more spell slots per-day before resting.
I suppose my fish/human example wasn't clear enough. A fish isn't just able to swim, if it's not swimming it's a dead fish. And here about sorcerers:
Quote
People with magical power seething in their veins soon discover that the power doesn’t like to stay quiet. A sorcerer’s magic wants to be wielded, and it has a tendency to spill out in unpredictable ways if it isn’t called on.
Source - https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/sorcerer
You also can read there https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/sorcerer#DraconicBloodline how exactly Draconic ancestry affects a Sorcerer.
And here is about Wild Magic - http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/sorcerer:wild-magic , which basically makes your Sorcerer a walking disaster.

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Originally Posted by TheAscendent
Ahem.
So the subclasses for the Sorcerer are as follows as of 5e.
Aberrant Mind
Clockwork Soul
Draconic Bloodline
Divine Soul
Shadow
Storm
Wild Magic
Draconic and Wild Magic are the default ones available in the Player's Handbook. Do you think we could see the others appear?

Who knows?


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Originally Posted by TheAscendent
Ahem.
So the subclasses for the Sorcerer are as follows as of 5e.
Aberrant Mind
Clockwork Soul
Draconic Bloodline
Divine Soul
Shadow
Storm
Wild Magic
Draconic and Wild Magic are the default ones available in the Player's Handbook. Do you think we could see the others appear?

I don't think so. They already said that the classes and sublasses are going to follow the PHB.
How knows what's gonna happen after release but IF it happen a day, it's probably gonna be as a DLC or a MOD.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 13/06/21 02:01 PM.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
I suppose my fish/human example wasn't clear enough. A fish isn't just able to swim, if it's not swimming it's a dead fish. And here about sorcerers:
It's not "clear enough" because it simply doesn't address the question.

That says literally nothing about how differently a Sorcerer is supposed to play from a Mage. It's just lore background.


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I have honestly no idea what are you talking about ...
What supports another class? O_o

Are you talking about metamagic?
That is how Sorcerer buffs his own spells ... not anyone else. O_o


The spell list, it looks like they create buffs and since no damage spells were listed I'm assuming those are to be applied to another party member? I don't know anything about D&D, I'm just trying to interpret what those spells would be used for in a party of four? I still haven't had an answer to my legitimate question. What practical benefit does a Sorcerer bring that a Wizard cannot? If I chose a Sorcerer as my character's class, how will the game play differently than if I chose a Wizard? They look almost identical to me and it seems to me the OP wants the class' inclusion because it's part of the lore rather than because it would bring something unique to the game.

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Sorcerer only getting 2 default origin just with PHB material is lame. They should add Divine Soul because it requires not much additional work.

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Sorcerers will usually tend to have much more offensive spell lists than wizards, as they can know less spells. The difference is that a sorcerer can make their spells do things, for example: wanna cast a fireball a bonus action? done. wanna fire two fire bolts with the same action? done. You're out of spell slots? just make new ones from your innate magic energy (metamagic points).

Where the wizard will have a LOT of versatility on the sheer amount of spells they can know, a sorcerer will be able to shape their own spells to do what they want with what they have.

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