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Hopefully the surprise on the beach is a neutral-good character stuck in a pod that we can release and have join the party. But that would be content and it sounded like content wasn't the focus of the next patch.

Maybe it will be a big pile of gold (like 20K) so we can buy things from the vendors rather than not having gold but having stuff we want at the vendors and then later having gold but not having the stuff we want at the vendors because they rotated the items out of stock. I'm collecting and selling spoons and cups for Christ's sake!

I'm hoping they've improved pathing so that when we tell the character to move from point A to point B (which is 3 steps and one "climb onto" away) the character doesn't turn around, climb a ladder onto the roof, walk to a higher roof, climb onto the higher roof, walk over to the edge, then throw themself off the building taking damage and going prone.

I'm hoping we can drop a dead party member from the party. I don't want to resurrect them at camp and then remove them from the party. When someone throws themselves from a cliff and dies, or when they walk through fire or acid and die (when the party members ahead of them managed to walk around the hazard, evidently by accident) I want them to stay dead. I'm not interested in paying for their resurrection. I'll just loot the body of anything useful and leave them. Bonus points to Larian if, at the end of the game, we'd get a cutscene that says so-and-so died after jumping off a cliff or while wadding through fire or acid. Put a dunce hat on their graphic and/or have townspeople pointing at their ghost and laughing.

Having more info in the popups about how long spells last and how other things work will be great. I hope that's what he meant when he spoke about on boarding. A lot of us don't memorize the rule books and it wouldn't matter if we did. We need to know how things work as Larian has implemented them for the difficulty level we're playing not what is in the rulebook.

I had to laugh when Swen nailed the fighter as an intro class. hehe Yup.
DM: Hey, there's this new tabletop game we can play. Here are some books to read and a bunch of funny shaped dice.
Group: (long explaination and Q/A session ensues)
DM: Look, just play as fighters until you get used to the rules.

Ah, I don't think I could play "clubs and sticks" as we used to call it nor even Cyberpunk tabletop any more. But I do enjoy cRPGs as long as there's a difficulty setting that doesn't bury me in busywork nor make up for simple enemy AI with mass attacks of regenerating hordes. Which leads to another change I'm hoping for: difficulty settings. That way Larian can stop nerfing things because some people complain the game is too easy. Larian can make the higher difficulty levels closer to the official D&D rules and less gold and more difficult battles. The mid-difficulty level can be the "BG3 for DOS2 audience". Easier levels can start with more stat points, more gold, some starter items, and better loot from battles (and more light battles). And my Ranger wants his d*mn Dire Spider back! (I'm pretty sure that's what it was before it was nerfed).

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Us becoming a companion or pet "surprise" would be the exact kind of thing Larian would do and I would hate.

It was a really cool little detail in the tutorial. But if you overdo it, you will ruin it.

If the brain monster will hang out at your camp (like a certain undead character that already turned from creepy and intriguing into ridiculous and mundane) or follow you around in the city of Baldur's Gate, it's just stupid and then the world is expected to react to this weird brain monster. Which will cost a lot of development time which will be wasted on anyone who just chooses to kill such monsters on sight.

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There seems to be an uncomfortably large nuber of people coalescing around the idea that the goals of BG3 are wrong. That taking 5E as a base and tuning it to make something that would appeal to fans of Divinity Original Sin and tactical combat is just fundamentally something that shouldn't even be attempted. BG3 needs to be a strict interpretation of 5E and nothing else is acceptablr. Solasta did it and it appealed to a tiny number of existing fans of 5E so that's evidence it's the only possible solution.

If that's true (and honestly I can see the logic) it's still not useful feedback. Larian are all in on BG3 they simply cannot pivot it to being a niche product aimed solely at 5E purists. Nor can they ditch the 5E system at this juncture. BG3 is going to be a game based around giving each player several interesting choices every turn and minimising those turns in which a player rolls a dice, misses and nothing happens. They're not going to change that based on what people on the forum say. It's reasonable to be upset about this, it's not reasonable to expect this to change.

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Originally Posted by Rack
Solasta did it and it appealed to a tiny number of existing fans of 5E so that's evidence it's the only possible solution.

You mean the estimated 14 MILLION people that play D&D currently? And I don't understand the mentality behind thinking you SHOULD deviate from 5e for a video game. The system has been refined for years to be as balanced as they can possible make it. Is it perfect? Of course not. Have other games like Solasta and Pathfinder: KM been able to translate TT rules into fun and well done digital version? ABSOLUTELY. But Larian started this project by telling everyone they want to make BG3 as faithful to 5e as they possibly can. That sets an expectation. Come to find out that they decided 5e isn't popular enough with people (despite the ~14 million active players), and need to gamify almost the entire rule base in order to fit THIER vision of what 5e is, or should be. As a fan of Larian, DOS, BG, and D&D (DMing for over a decade) I can say with confidence that I honestly don't mind them changing a few things here and there as needed. I get it. But they have bastardized the ruleset SO MUCH, that it only vaguely resembles the original system. Its painfully obvious that they simply ported their DOS system into BG3 and then have been trying to fit the DOS engine into 5e. Instead of designing their foundation around the 5e system, which they probably should have done, they are now caught desperately trying to shove elements of 5e into their DOS engine to try to pass it off as a 5e system.

I'm not a purist by any means. Like I said, I get it. But when you start a project with the goal of making as faithful to the ruleset as possible, you set that expectation for people that play the 5e ruleset. And so far, the 'As close as possible' has turned into 'Meh, close enough'. And that's what upsets people.

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Originally Posted by Rack
There seems to be an uncomfortably large nuber of people coalescing around the idea that the goals of BG3 are wrong. That taking 5E as a base and tuning it to make something that would appeal to fans of Divinity Original Sin and tactical combat is just fundamentally something that shouldn't even be attempted. BG3 needs to be a strict interpretation of 5E and nothing else is acceptablr. Solasta did it and it appealed to a tiny number of existing fans of 5E so that's evidence it's the only possible solution.

If that's true (and honestly I can see the logic) it's still not useful feedback. Larian are all in on BG3 they simply cannot pivot it to being a niche product aimed solely at 5E purists. Nor can they ditch the 5E system at this juncture. BG3 is going to be a game based around giving each player several interesting choices every turn and minimising those turns in which a player rolls a dice, misses and nothing happens. They're not going to change that based on what people on the forum say. It's reasonable to be upset about this, it's not reasonable to expect this to change.
Whilst your post is very realistic there are some things I want to point out:
1. There are far more D&D players than DOS players. If they had to "choose" a direction to go, at least to me it would make more sense to appeal to D&D fans. D&D nowadays is definitely not niche.
2. Our complaints regarding Solasta is more about catching Larian downright lying about feature implementation than being purists. They were and still are highly dismissive about 5e implementation, however they first stated that "some of tabletop does not translate well into video games" and then that they "initially tried a more faithful implementation but it was NOT FUN".

Well, I think Solasta is very fun, and it shows 5e translates well into video games. Even low score reviews of Solasta praise its mechanics, which is the most criticized part of BG3.

Last edited by Danielbda; 18/06/21 02:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rack
There seems to be an uncomfortably large number of people coalescing around the idea that the goals of BG3 are wrong. That taking 5E as a base and tuning it to make something that would appeal to fans of Divinity Original Sin and tactical combat is just fundamentally something that shouldn't even be attempted. BG3 needs to be a strict interpretation of 5E and nothing else is acceptable. Solasta did it and it appealed to a tiny number of existing fans of 5E so that's evidence it's the only possible solution.

That's a bit of a straw man, isn't it? From what I've seen, majority of the complaints are about it being a DOS game with some ham-fisted DnD elements. There is no 5E base there, just a minimum effort to adapt it to an incompatible system that already existed in the previous games. I would see no issue with the additional Larianism, if they were properly power scaled to the 5E ruleset, and didn't break the fantastical reality.

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Originally Posted by Rack
There seems to be an uncomfortably large nuber of people coalescing around the idea that the goals of BG3 are wrong. That taking 5E as a base and tuning it to make something that would appeal to fans of Divinity Original Sin and tactical combat is just fundamentally something that shouldn't even be attempted. BG3 needs to be a strict interpretation of 5E and nothing else is acceptablr. Solasta did it and it appealed to a tiny number of existing fans of 5E so that's evidence it's the only possible solution.

If that's true (and honestly I can see the logic) it's still not useful feedback. Larian are all in on BG3 they simply cannot pivot it to being a niche product aimed solely at 5E purists. Nor can they ditch the 5E system at this juncture. BG3 is going to be a game based around giving each player several interesting choices every turn and minimising those turns in which a player rolls a dice, misses and nothing happens. They're not going to change that based on what people on the forum say. It's reasonable to be upset about this, it's not reasonable to expect this to change.

I'm not really a fan of D&D, I've played it a bit and I enjoy it well enough, but it's far from my favorite game system by any means. I've also blayed Divinity: Original Sin 1 and 2, I enjoyed the combat in both a lot (though for some reason I really could not get into 2). I have no issue with them changing the combat for BG3, my problem is that I don't think they've done a good job of it so far. The two systems work very differently and have different goals from the outset. Is it possible to merge D&D and Divinity? Probably, anything's possible. But they haven't managed that yet. Instead what we have is something that really feels as though it's fighting against itself. The stuff that's been added goes against what makes D&D fun, and the stuff they've left in drags down what makes Divinity fun. They need to commit more strongly in either direction, and since this is a D&D inspired game, committing more to D&D is the logical choice, but what matters is that the mix they've got now feels off.

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It's hilarious when people try to use this direct competition/comparison between BG3 and Solasta as proof that what the latter is doing is unpopular.
I'm not sure if the ENTIRE BUDGET of Solasta matches the cost of the cinematic intro for BG3.
They are not even in the same ballpark when it comes to investments involved. I'm not even exaggerating when I say that the overall budget for BG3 ranges probably between 30X to 50X the one for Solasta (60-100 millions in total, maybe even more, vs 3-4 at most).

So Solasta doing as well as it's doing and gaining so much recognition compared to its low budget is a testament that it's doing something right, not something that should be held as an argument to prove it's trash.

Last edited by Tuco; 18/06/21 02:42 PM.

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There are far more people that want a balanced combat system than want a 100% pure 5e system. 5e is a shorthand reference for a non broken system because is the closest example of relatively balanced system. Since you brought it up, solasta is another shorthand reference for a non broken combat system.

The constant discussions are more than they took an already relatively balanced system and homebrewed it till it broke. It's not the baseline concepts that people dislike, it's that larian insists on turning all the homebrew up to 11. It is useful feedback to say that while the initial idea is a good one, the implementation of that idea is poor, please nerf.

It's worth noting that even in tabletop, no one plays 100% pure 5e and extra homebrew for enjoyment is standard. It's homebrew like OP subclasses,abilities, or PCs, which decreases the enjoyment that people object to.

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It's reasonable to be upset about this, it's not reasonable to expect this to change.

It is reasonable to expect change because they literally said players should participate in the EA to explore different ideas. How can you explore different ideas without providing feedback on the different changes between each idea.

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" Only buy the game now if you want an early look or if you want to participate in community feedback".
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Early Access gives players a chance to participate in development and it gives us an opportunity to explore different game ideas with a live community

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I forgot the forum for a few days and a this interview emerged. I should be abscent more often, maybe we get more updates then.

I'm cautiously optimistic. I would like to see, that they changed some things, as the community wanted, especially concerning combat and the chaining system. And a bit less flash and bang stuff and more focus on the abilities of the the different classes.

And no, I don't want US to become a companion after leaving the ship. I think that wouldn't really make sense, so hopefully, the people speculating about this are wrong.


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I'm really glad they finally talked to us, even if it's an interview!

Before I think that game would be released in early 2022, but after Swen's words, I don't think so anymore. He also mentions for the second time that the experience on the release will be completely different, which makes me very happy. About patch "based on player feedback" need to understand that the reviews are different and quite contradictory. Because BG3 community is divided into video game players and DnD players, I think this greatly complicates work for Larian. It's hard to please everyone.

You may not believe me, but there are really a lot of players who think that DnD system is bad/boring for video games, which is why Swen says that "you can't add everything from DnD". Because some of the players actually agree with him.

The question is what kind of reviews they are talking about.

I'm not too worried about the gameplay part, I'm sure they will try to make it as easy as possible for those who have never played DnD, but it is also possible to try to add more "DnD balance".

And if we are talking about sOlAsTa again, many ppl also consider it gameplay boring. It may be more "balanced", but many people still do not like it, even if it follows DnD, I think that's what Swen means.

For me, the story, the quest, and the characters are more important. And I like the way Larian writes, so I'm not worried.


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I tried watching the interview a coupe of times but I was multitasking and wasn't paying attention. But I then realized that there wasn't much point of watching it because he was only saying "Wait until the next update. I also can't tell you when the next update will be."

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
I tried watching the interview a coupe of times but I was multitasking and wasn't paying attention. But I then realized that there wasn't much point of watching it because he was only saying "Wait until the next update. I also can't tell you when the next update will be."
Yeah, that's pretty much the gist of it.
As an added bonus there was a bit of "We are listening to some people, but I won'tell you who they are".

Also, the next patch will be focused on systems rather than adding content. Still not clear what it means exactly, since "not focused on content" could range from an optimistic "just one class and/or race rather than all the missing ones!" to a "When we said NOT FOCUSED ON we meant you get FUCKING NOTHING".

Last edited by Tuco; 18/06/21 03:31 PM.

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Originally Posted by Rack
There seems to be an uncomfortably large nuber of people coalescing around the idea that the goals of BG3 are wrong. That taking 5E as a base and tuning it to make something that would appeal to fans of Divinity Original Sin and tactical combat is just fundamentally something that shouldn't even be attempted. BG3 needs to be a strict interpretation of 5E and nothing else is acceptablr. Solasta did it and it appealed to a tiny number of existing fans of 5E so that's evidence it's the only possible solution.

If that's true (and honestly I can see the logic) it's still not useful feedback. Larian are all in on BG3 they simply cannot pivot it to being a niche product aimed solely at 5E purists. Nor can they ditch the 5E system at this juncture. BG3 is going to be a game based around giving each player several interesting choices every turn and minimising those turns in which a player rolls a dice, misses and nothing happens. They're not going to change that based on what people on the forum say. It's reasonable to be upset about this, it's not reasonable to expect this to change.

"purist"

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people who think the current combat design is fundamentally broken, and their reasoning has nothing to do with adhering to tabletop DnD or 5E. Or is wanting Larian to dial back a massive accuracy bonus or penalty based on a difference of a few pixels worth of positioning a '5E purist' concern? Or the exploitable time bubble stuff where you can send in one party member to initiate combat and then sit on their turn as the rest of the party freely sneaks into the fight as long as they don't wander into enemy sight cones?

If there really is a '5E purist' concern, it'd revolve around the lack of controllable reactions and ready actions, which make up a huge chunk of combat that they claim this game is an adaptation of. And quite frankly, I don't understand why people are hoping this game ends up serving as a template for future DnD games in its current state, when we're missing such fundamental features.

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Originally Posted by Nyloth
You may not believe me, but there are really a lot of players who think that DnD system is bad/boring for video games, which is why Swen says that "you can't add everything from DnD". Because some of the players actually agree with him.
It is hard to believe you on this, simply because there is no evidence. There are like two people here on this forum that constantly say "dnd sucks", you being one of them.
Again, there are more people that like D&D than there are DOS players, and D&D players like video games too.

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by Nyloth
You may not believe me, but there are really a lot of players who think that DnD system is bad/boring for video games, which is why Swen says that "you can't add everything from DnD". Because some of the players actually agree with him.
It is hard to believe you on this, simply because there is no evidence. There are like two people here on this forum that constantly say "dnd sucks", you being one of them.
Again, there are more people that like D&D than there are DOS players, and D&D players like video games too.

Fun fact, I never said that! All I said was that I didn't know about DnD too much, that's all.
About "others", try to go beyond this forum. And think about why Larian changed dice. Even in steam community, you could meet a lot of "haters" dice system. But this is the tip of the iceberg. Believe me, many who bought this game, do not even go to this forum. That's why you don't understand why Larian do this and what they are talking about DnD system. Not all players who love RPG games have played DnD. Is that so hard to believe??? Am I saying some unimaginable things?


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Originally Posted by Nyloth
You may not believe me, but there are really a lot of players who think that DnD system is bad/boring for video games, which is why Swen says that "you can't add everything from DnD". Because some of the players actually agree with him.


Sven says that because it's literally impossible to add everything from DnD with the engine they are using. You can't have real flying, proper wish, suggestion, etc. DnD 5e is based on imagination not limited game engine. DnD system is neither bad or boring, it's a very good system for a turn-based game for combat, that is just very hard to implement properly. And everything Larian plan to add actually makes sense for a DnD adaption considering that DM being creative and using rulebook not as a holy scripture but as a foundation to build an adventure on is an integral part of any good DnD campaign.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Originally Posted by Nyloth
You may not believe me, but there are really a lot of players who think that DnD system is bad/boring for video games, which is why Swen says that "you can't add everything from DnD". Because some of the players actually agree with him.


Sven says that because it's literally impossible to add everything from DnD with the engine they are using. You can't have real flying, proper wish, suggestion, etc. DnD 5e is based on imagination not limited game engine. DnD system is neither bad or boring, it's a very good system for a turn-based game for combat, that is just very hard to implement properly. And everything Larian plan to add actually makes sense for a DnD adaption considering that DM being creative and using rulebook not as a holy scripture but as a foundation to build an adventure on is an integral part of any good DnD campaign.

Well, people think it's just an "excuse" and "the same crutch", that's why I wrote it. You should have written it to them, not to me.


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Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Tuco
Being able to keep Us around would be quite the disappointing surprise, if that’s actually it.

Also, no way I’m keeping that disgusting little fucker alive out of the ship in any of my playthrougs.

I don't like Us either! I usually squish it, can't stand it.

So then we won't be getting a sexy drawing of Us from you. Hopes dashed.


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Originally Posted by Argyle
(ooh, hold on a minute, I have to add a little more chocolate sauce to my fry pan ... gotta carmelize the salmon a little more ... OK!)

Mmmm. I'm feeling lazy tonight so I'm going to stick with my old standby of yogurt and ketchup.

Look at Mr. Fancypants with his expensive store-bought ketchup. :P


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I have to break a lance for D&D- it's great system, that allows you to do a lot of stuff. I play D&D (different editions) for over 20 years now and it never gets boring. I don't believe, that it is that hard to get right in a video game (and no, I haven't played Solasta yet, tehre are some lovecraftian games, that need my attention atm).

Last edited by fylimar; 18/06/21 06:04 PM.

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