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Originally Posted by dwig
I try very hard NOT to argue from the assumption that people think like me, both here and every other place that I post. Could you please point out some places where I did that so that I can improve myself in the future?


Sorry, thought you were the person I was actually responding to originally.

Also, you really should clean up your reply/quotes. What a mess.


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EDIT: unilateral disarmament

Last edited by dwig; 19/06/21 12:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Look at Mr. Fancypants with his expensive store-bought ketchup. :P

Store-bought ketchup is my new screen name.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by dwig
I try very hard NOT to argue from the assumption that people think like me, both here and every other place that I post. Could you please point out some places where I did that so that I can improve myself in the future?


Sorry, thought you were the person I was actually responding to originally.

Also, you really should clean up your reply/quotes. What a mess.

people are so weird about quotes on this forum lol. How was that a mess? it was just four nested quotes

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
"purist"

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of people who think the current combat design is fundamentally broken, and their reasoning has nothing to do with adhering to tabletop DnD or 5E.
I'd be in this field as well. I made no secret of having hardly any direct experience with pen & paper D&D (and none with 5th edition in particular).
I don't even rate D&D that highly among the pen & paper systems I actually had a chance to try with friends over the years (MERP, Cthulhu, Cyberpunk 2019, etc). In fact I put in quite possibly at the bottom.
And my experience with pen & paper was fairly limited in general. I never played them for very long and it has been probably at least two decades since I attempted one session. Most of my experience over 30+ years of gaming has been with computer and (to a far lesser degree) console RPGs.

But you know what? Fuck all of that. I'm done with encouraging this wishy-washy bullshit, anyway.
I'm not sure how we even got to the point that if people here are a straight D&D fans they have to DEFEND THEMSELVES and be shy about it, when wanting something faithful to what they were promised it's a perfectly legitimate opinion to hold.

Then again, that becomes of second relevance over the fact that people who are holding to the specious, vague and baseless claim that "things as they are wouldn't work in a videogame" are defending BAD changes here, that DO have a measurable negative effect on the combat.
Because there's no fucking pocket universe where "Jump to disengage as a bonus action" translates in a better flow of the battle, for instance. And anyone trying to defend that design choice with a straight face should be charged for fraud and other felonies or something.

I'm also more than a bit puzzled by the "Bu-but I care more about the story and the characters" crowd.
Fine. You can care about whatever you want. Who gives a damn? This is meant to be a discussion about core gameplay loops. "TEH STORY" is not going to change for the worse only because any degree of effort is put into making the core mechanics more reasonable or more enjoyable, to begin with.


Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
Sven says that because it's literally impossible to add everything from DnD with the engine they are using. You can't have real flying, proper wish, suggestion, etc.
He never made it an "engine limitation" but a design one.
Also, other games figured out how to make flight work on far tighter budget. It wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that it's their job to solve the issue on their part rather that putting up excuses.
And the only thing that makes WISH "impossible to implement in a game" can arguably be a lack of creativity on how to work around its limitations. Throne of Bhaal had WISH 20 years ago. Was it as versatile as the real thing? Of course not. Was it a more-than-enjoyable-enough as a compromise? Yes, it was.
Not that it really matters here, since BG3 is not even going to reach levels where casting WISH would be a thing.


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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
I mean, as one of the people who keeps yelling for Rules as Written for implementation of stuff, I have been on record saying I like a lot of the homebrew and just want them to be toned back to be in line with 5e. Shove is good, it being a bonus action and flinging people half a mile is not. Surfaces are interesting, every battlefield on fire and it breaking concentration constantly is not. Non Warlock Familiars getting unique abilities is very cool, them attacking thereby invalidating the warlock a little and losing their ability to deliver touch spells is not. Each companion having something special hearkens back to BG1 and 2 and is common for DND tables, the player character having nothing feels eh. Animals being able to open doors and sit in chairs is cute and wacky, them not being able to move their concentration spells is not good though. Highground and Backstab does make sense for giving advantage, but doing so is too strong so instead giving highground a flat bonus and change backstabbing to proper flanking and it will be more in line with 5e and more balanced. Weapons having a special action is reminiscent of asking your DM if you can swipe at the goblin's legs to trip him, them doing so much damage that they become the superior action always is not good though.

Overall, the issue isn't that Larian is using homebrew, it is that the homebrew they have implemented needs to be toned back considerably, or atleast for me. In fact, most of the homebrew in the game I want to remain, just, as I said, toned back.

Pretty much.

- High Ground/Low Ground should just be turned into a +2/-2 accuracy bonus/penalty thing. This opens up room for Sharpshooter feat to exist.
- I don't have much of a problem with field effects besides how damage from field effects forces a caster to roll for concentration. That should not be a thing.
- Backstab should be a rogue exclusive class feature, *assuming* shove and jump/disengage remain bonus actions. Now Rogues get some of their identity back.
- Implement the option to shove enemies prone to make up for the loss of backstabs on every other class. Now each party member doesn't need to use their bonus action jumping behind enemies for advantage, only one party member needs to use their bonus action to shove if they are successful in their attempt.

(On the note of Sharpshooter feat, it's pretty nuts how Great Weapon Master exists in BG3, but Sharpshooter doesn't. Considering the main downside of using GWM is canceled out by backstab advantage existing. Having one but not the other is eventually going to result in archer damage output for most classes really falling behind the melee and casters later in the game.)

Additional crap:

- When Paladins are implemented, give Paladins the ability to smite using ranged attacks. Archer paladins are typically not a thing in 5E, but it does in Pathfinder (and thus I assume 3E had it too). I have a theoretical archer Paladin/Bard multiclass idea waiting on the wings if this happens, taking advantage of the fact that Bards will get more spell slots to smite with, they don't have very many offensive spells compared to the other full casters to begin with, and that Valor Bards also get extra attack later on.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 19/06/21 02:10 AM.
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"since BG3 is not even going to reach levels where casting WISH would be a thing."

What?? Gosh, I sure do wish we could eventually get to those levels. Boy, if there is one thing I could wish for, it would be to try out those pinnacle 9th level spells. Maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part, but I think even a limited wish would be worth implementing, but only if Larian wishes to believe so.

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Originally Posted by Argyle
"since BG3 is not even going to reach levels where casting WISH would be a thing."

What?? Gosh, I sure do wish we could eventually get to those levels. Boy, if there is one thing I could wish for, it would be to try out those pinnacle 9th level spells. Maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part, but I think even a limited wish would be worth implementing, but only if Larian wishes to believe so.
The game was originally supposed to cap at level 10 and then at a later date they said it will go higher than that because they were preparing too much content to stop there.

Even in the most optimistic prediction I can't see it going beyond level 14. So no WISH.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Argyle
"since BG3 is not even going to reach levels where casting WISH would be a thing."

What?? Gosh, I sure do wish we could eventually get to those levels. Boy, if there is one thing I could wish for, it would be to try out those pinnacle 9th level spells. Maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part, but I think even a limited wish would be worth implementing, but only if Larian wishes to believe so.
The game was originally supposed to cap at level 10 and then at a later date they said it will go higher than that because they were preparing too much content to stop there.

Even in the most optimistic prediction I can't see it going beyond level 14. So no WISH.

There is a small chance it could go to 17. Tbh, I'd love for it to get 1-20 just so it can be a full experience and people can really sink their teeth into things like multiclassing. It'd be nice to hear some things on what level they plan for the game to end at now.

Edit: Since I didn't hear anything like that in the Interview.

Last edited by CJMPinger; 19/06/21 02:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tuco
I'm also more than a bit puzzled by the "Bu-but I care more about the story and the characters" crowd.
Fine. You can care about whatever you want. Who gives a damn? This is meant to be a discussion about core gameplay loops.

This is a thread about the recent interview, so it is not about any specific subject, therefore don't try to shut down others for their discussion points. Just because you don't care, doesn't mean you get to dictate talking-points in priority over others.
Anything relevant to the interview goes, and if others are touching upon other details that doesn't interest you, ignore it.

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Originally Posted by CJMPinger
There is a small chance it could go to 17.
Well, in that case you won't get WISH anyway because Swen Vincke doesn't like it.
Tough luck, sucker!

I'm mostly joking, in case it wasn't clear, but we aren't too far from reality.

Last edited by Tuco; 19/06/21 02:43 AM.

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Originally Posted by The Composer
This is a thread about the recent interview, so it is not about any specific subject, therefore don't try to shut down others for their discussion points. Just because you don't care, doesn't mean you get to dictate talking-points in priority over others.
Anything relevant to the interview goes, and if others are touching upon other details that doesn't interest you, ignore it.
Uh, sure?

THIS ONE context about "Being faithful to D&D or not" where the posts were made is *unquestionably* a discussion about mechanics.
And no one said a word about the what can and cannot be posted in the thread, anyway. Nor I'd have the power to put any veto even if I wanted.

This, putting aside that frankly "I care for the story" is not a particularly relevant to the context of the interview in general.

Last edited by Tuco; 19/06/21 02:50 AM.

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It is a tangential thread by nature, so even suggesting that some specific law-of-the-land decree of what is ok or not to discuss is being rather disingenuous. And it's precisely the point I'm making, it's a broad reactionary thread to an interview as a whole, so there is no particular one topic of focus, however there likely will be a few dominant ones, such as discussions about mechanics. You do not get to say that other comments are irrelevant, or decide how much others care.

People can discuss things in more detail around those tangents, and/or make comments of their own, such as what they enjoy more (eg. story and characters) unrelated to which ever discussion is going on amongst others. Continue discussing your burning passions, but for everyone in general as a blanket observation to several posts, be kind to eachother and patient with different views.

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Man. I'm so tired of the negativity out here. I find that the negativity makes me negative.

Let's just be glad Swen said something. At least the deafening silence was ended, even if only briefly. We know they're still working on it and they're at least acknowledging their considering our feedback...

...well, all your feedback anyway... Mine gets shot down every time. EVERY time.

Ah! There I go again, being negative. See? It's infectious.

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Originally Posted by Alodar
What makes you think they didn't. BG3 has been in development for years.
They tested and iterated the game long before it went to EA.

And the result was a system which uses half the rules from 5e and half the rules from a homebrew, and those two rule sets don't work well together.

What does it matter that Larian tested and iterated the game long before it went to EA? It was not a perfect game then, and it's not one now. That's the reason Larian is doing EA. To get feedback from other people outside their own bubble.

Developers can think something is great which players end up hating (The D:OS 2 armor system). Developers can lose confidence that something is good as is and change things which didn't need changing (Adding a Source point cost to the Bless spell in D:OS 2).

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I'm wondering what questions people would have liked to have had asked in the interview. Is it only about how close the game is to 5E RAW mechanics? Doesn't anyone else wish there had been questions about general game play?

Q: Any plans to adjust pathing to prefer non-injurious travel over climbing and throwing yourself off high places?

Q: Any plans to remove the "swarming" where party members buzz around the party leader like stoned idiots? (does this only happen when everyone is sneaking?)

Q: Any plans to separate the action of designating party leader from the action of selecting a party member? When I click on someone to check their quickbar or change their active weapon, etc, I don't want everyone to start swarming around them becuase there's a new leader; has a tendency to set off nearby traps, walk into the vision cone of enemies, etc.

Q; Any plans to add party banter text to that text box with the dice rolls? I'm tired of hearing the tail end of conversations as my companions catch up to me while traveling.

Q: Any plans to improve visibility of hidden objects/traps once you've passed the perception roll? Currently, if a companion makes the perception check it's often easy to miss what they detected because they're lagging behind or buzzing about aimlessly while I'm openning containers, etc. ("Scratch" would make a great companion. He should almost always make his perception rolls and stand next to and "point" at whatever he just found. Maybe growl quitely. More of a Pointer rather than a Flusher.)

Q: Any plans to enlarge (widen/thicken) the scroll bars on the Journal (and anywere else there are scroll bars)? Currently they're a mighty thin target to grab with the mouse.

Q: Any plans to remove useless junk like feathers, inkwells, bones, cups, plates, forks, spoons, knives, cuttings boards, milk bottles, rotten baskets, etc and add more potions, food, gold, weapons, etc where they make sense? Having everyday items/nicknacks can help flesh out a scene but if there's no use for them they don't need to be actual objects that the game would have to track.

Q: Are you working to improve interface responsiveness? There's a perceptable delay between mouse actions and world response. For example, when the pary is stationary and I click somewhere for them to move there's a delay before they start moving. In the inventory screen to move an item there is a delay between left clicking on an item and having the item become movable. It's not a terribly long delay but it is long enough to be annoying and feel like I'm fighting the interface.

Q: When do you expect to have difficulty settings available for players to test? Currently there seems to be some tweaking of difficulty that will need to be undone for less difficult settings. Might also provide useful feedback to see how many people play at which difficulty setting.

Q: And, of course, will the built-in game console use the same commands as in the earlier BG games or are you coming up with new syntax?

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Those are good questions and ones that everyone wants answers to so they don't generate anywhere the same amount of posts as more divisive topics.

I don't think we'll see any interviews that pose such questions though as they are more rigorous and moving into critique than the casual chat format Devs perfer. If the interview threw a few of those at swen then he probably wouldn't get another interview.

It wasn't even the interviewer that mentioned 5e vs larian style gameplay, it was swen. Interviewer stayed well clear of any hard questions

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Man. I'm so tired of the negativity out here. I find that the negativity makes me negative.

Let's just be glad Swen said something. At least the deafening silence was ended, even if only briefly. We know they're still working on it and they're at least acknowledging their considering our feedback...

...well, all your feedback anyway... Mine gets shot down every time. EVERY time.

Ah! There I go again, being negative. See? It's infectious.
Dude, that's so fucking sad. Really. I feel for you.

Go take a cookie asap .


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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Man. I'm so tired of the negativity out here. I find that the negativity makes me negative.

Let's just be glad Swen said something. At least the deafening silence was ended, even if only briefly. We know they're still working on it and they're at least acknowledging their considering our feedback...

...well, all your feedback anyway... Mine gets shot down every time. EVERY time.

Ah! There I go again, being negative. See? It's infectious.


You and me both. It's why interviews or any release of information has no upside. The fanatics will tear everything apart looking for something to criticize and a lot of them have no filter - and the regular players don't care.

It went from "I just...wish...they...would...say...something" to "I HATE all the things they said!" very quickly.

And it's so weird to me to hear these arguments that "Larian doesn't listen to feedback" when they clearly do. I think they listen to pretty much everyone, but I think some people have this idea that because they show up here when they proclaim something that they should be carried around like a conquering hero and savior of Baldur's gate 3.

People be losing they minds.

It's important to remember that Swen has all the Metadata from millions of playthroughs that shows him what people like to do. BG3 will be affected more by that metadata than us crazy people who post on the forums.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 19/06/21 02:11 PM.

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God, you people are EXHAUSTING.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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