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Just to add my voice to what so many others have already said very well, I am one of those longtime cRPG fans who has played a lot of D&D over several editions, LOVES the original BG games, but who does NOT like D&D rules generally. So I am all for Larian changing up some of the D&D mechanics to provide a better video game experience in BG3, in much the same way that BG1 and 2 also did not implement 2e rules 100%.

However, I am also firmly in the camp that is NOT happy with the specific things Larian has introduced into the game as their "homebrew" alternatives to D&D mechanics, and find most of these changes to be frustrating, aggravating, and making the video game playing experience worse rather than better. But not liking these Larian/D:OS mechanics in the game does not in any way, shape or form make me a D&D 5e "purist."

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Go take a break, Tuco.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
It's important to remember that Swen has all the Metadata from millions of playthroughs that shows him what people like to do. BG3 will be affected more by that metadata than us crazy people who post on the forums.
It's important to remember that having data is worthless unless you know how to use it, and Larian has demonstrated that they do not.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
However, I am also firmly in the camp that is NOT happy with the specific things Larian has introduced into the game as their "homebrew" alternatives to D&D mechanics, and find most of these changes to be frustrating, aggravating, and making the video game playing experience worse rather than better. But not liking these Larian/D:OS mechanics in the game does not in any way, shape or form make me a D&D 5e "purist."

Personally I find myself somewhere in the middle, love both games and D&D sessions with friends but I'm also fairly easy to please. However I too would love a more conservative approach in starting out with more or less a 5e copy-paste and be rather reserved with any changes to it, particularly for spells in regards to balance and such. But more importantly, I'd love to see more in-depth discussions around design changes and decisions about it, as I believe it's a lot easier for a lot of people to respect a decision if the thoughts behind them are made clear. Without it, the changes easily seem arbitrary and "just because", at least that's how I see it playing out. Even as things aren't set in stone (and maybe is the cause of reluctance of discussing it publically), I'd actually argue on the contrary, and advice discussing it in a community update or interview, because the forementioned reason, and as many have pointed out, it makes it easier for the rest of us to discuss more accurate and relevant things for feedback around it.

At least that'd be enough for my gamer-heart.

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Originally Posted by The Composer
Go take a break, Tuco.
Why? I’m not the one having an emotional breakdown every time there’s some “negativity” (aka “any degree of criticism “).


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
It's important to remember that Swen has all the Metadata from millions of playthroughs that shows him what people like to do. BG3 will be affected more by that metadata than us crazy people who post on the forums.


Incorrect, it is impossible for the metadata to convey "what people like to do". it can only convey "what people do".

There is a world of difference between what people like to do and what people do, ie someone might not enjoy high ground advantage but they still do it unhappily because they feel they are punished if they don't. Enjoyment and minimising punishment are two very different motivations, one makes you more likely to continue to play the game, one makes you less likely to continue to play the game

You cannot predict motivations accurately by looking only at actions. Such a misinterpretation of what the metadata is saying helps nobody.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by The Composer
Go take a break, Tuco.
Why? I’m not the one having an emotional breakdown every time there’s some “negativity” (aka “any degree of criticism “).

"You guys are exhausting." is negativity and emotional breakdown, you even rely on the full caps-lock. Don't hide behind the criticism card. Let me put it very clear for you then: Be critical but positive. Be constructive, not destructive. If you continue the negative-tirade, I'll provide a break for you.

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Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
It's important to remember that Swen has all the Metadata from millions of playthroughs that shows him what people like to do. BG3 will be affected more by that metadata than us crazy people who post on the forums.


Incorrect, it is impossible for the metadata to convey "what people like to do". it can only convey "what people do".

There is a world of difference between what people like to do and what people do, ie someone might not enjoy high ground advantage but they still do it unhappily because they feel they are punished if they don't. Enjoyment and minimising punishment are two very different motivations, one makes you more likely to continue to play the game, one makes you less likely to continue to play the game

You cannot predict motivations accurately by looking only at actions. Such a misinterpretation of what the metadata is saying helps nobody.

This is true. For the most part, anyway. There are certain things that telemetry is enough for, such as encounter difficulty balancing. But for design decisions, more nuance and insight is definitely necessary.

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
It's important to remember that Swen has all the Metadata from millions of playthroughs that shows him what people like to do. BG3 will be affected more by that metadata than us crazy people who post on the forums.
It's important to remember that having data is worthless unless you know how to use it, and Larian has demonstrated that they do not.


Really? How so?

If you had metadata showing that people love to be shoving peeps around would you remove shove?

How have they demonstrated they don't know how to use data?


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
It's important to remember that Swen has all the Metadata from millions of playthroughs that shows him what people like to do. BG3 will be affected more by that metadata than us crazy people who post on the forums.
It's important to remember that having data is worthless unless you know how to use it, and Larian has demonstrated that they do not.


Really? How so?

If you had metadata showing that people love to be shoving peeps around would you remove shove?

How have they demonstrated they don't know how to use data?

The metadata could only show you how much people are using the ability, not exactly why and how much they are enjoying it. That's his entire point, and it's a very legitimate one.
If you give me an overpowered ability I'll use it to get the most benefits from it, especially if I'm in a tight spot, but it doesn't mean I like its existence or how predominant it can be over any other strategy.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Really? How so?

If you had metadata showing that people love to be shoving peeps around would you remove shove?

How have they demonstrated they don't know how to use data?

It's not about "knowing how to use the data", it's a fundamental aspect of the metadata. It doesn't contain any information on player motivation, only player actions.

You could have metadata showing someone gives a couple billion to worthy charities every year and still have no clue about the motivation. In this case the metadata contains information on amounts given, dates and from bank account to what charity.

It could be for tax purposes by their accountants and the person has no awareness of the act, it could be they care deeply about the charities, it could be a form of fraud, it could just be PR, it could be under court order, it could be a complex scheme to win huge business deals.

You can't reason the motivation from the action, you can only do that by asking the person or by some other type of information gathering such as investigation or survey, which are beyond the metadata

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Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Nyloth
For me, the story, the quest, and the characters are more important. And I like the way Larian writes, so I'm not worried.

Yes! I agree wholeheartedly. I'm sure they will do a wonderful job, and look forward to more characters/companions/content in future patches.

I am actually hoping the "beach surprise" is a new companion, and not a tentacled creepy brain.

I'm with you guys, but I can't help being disappointed that I won't get real reasons for a replay until the patch-after-next (at earliest). Time to start stalking the Steam DB page for a glimpse of patch 6. rpg006

I hope the beach surprise isn't Us. Not sure what else it could be, though - maybe
a miniature giant space hamster who needs us to find its pet ranger?

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by grysqrl
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
It's important to remember that Swen has all the Metadata from millions of playthroughs that shows him what people like to do. BG3 will be affected more by that metadata than us crazy people who post on the forums.
It's important to remember that having data is worthless unless you know how to use it, and Larian has demonstrated that they do not.


Really? How so?

If you had metadata showing that people love to be shoving peeps around would you remove shove?

How have they demonstrated they don't know how to use data?

The metadata could only show you how much people are using the ability, not exactly why and how much they are enjoying it. That's his entire point, and it's a very legitimate one.
If you give me an overpowered ability I'll use it to get the most benefits from it, especially if I'm in a tight spot, but it doesn't mean I like its existence or how predominant it can be over any other strategy.
Exactly.

Also, an example that has floated around several times (including recently) is that they erroneously concluded, based on the fact that people don't use Bless very much, that people don't like to use buffs. The actual issue causing people to use Bless infrequently is very likely a combination of the following:
-It is difficult to use Bless in BG3. For no apparent reason, the interface makes it hard to select the targets you want to select.
-BG3 doesn't teach players how to play BG3. If people don't understand the mechanics of the game, they won't understand the benefit of buffs. (Whereas damage is easy to understand.) Similarly, when you do use Bless, the effects aren't displayed well.
-Concentration spells in BG3 are devalued because the game adds more ways to break concentration (e.g. unavoidable damage from surfaces as well as Prone being treated as Incapacitated).
-Easy access to Advantage through high ground and backstab makes it much easier to land attacks, obviating the need for Bless.

They broke Bless with their own bad design and then blamed us for not finding it rewarding.

Telemetry can be useful for investigating some things, but it can never tell you why people behave the way they do - for that, you have to talk to people and actually listen.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Originally Posted by Alexandrite
Originally Posted by Nyloth
For me, the story, the quest, and the characters are more important. And I like the way Larian writes, so I'm not worried.

Yes! I agree wholeheartedly. I'm sure they will do a wonderful job, and look forward to more characters/companions/content in future patches.

I am actually hoping the "beach surprise" is a new companion, and not a tentacled creepy brain.

I'm with you guys, but I can't help being disappointed that I won't get real reasons for a replay until the patch-after-next (at earliest). Time to start stalking the Steam DB page for a glimpse of patch 6. rpg006

I hope the beach surprise isn't Us. Not sure what else it could be, though - maybe
a miniature giant space hamster who needs us to find its pet ranger?

Hmm, that would be an absolute slam dunk for Larian's "talk to animals" style. I kind of hope that you have guessed correctly.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
The metadata could only show you how much people are using the ability, not exactly why and how much they are enjoying it. That's his entire point, and it's a very legitimate one.
If you give me an overpowered ability I'll use it to get the most benefits from it, especially if I'm in a tight spot, but it doesn't mean I like its existence or how predominant it can be over any other strategy.
Funny thing ...
I dont use the overpowered ability, bcs then the game starts to feel "just the same over and over" pretty quick. laugh
I presume its all about attitude. :P


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Tuco
The metadata could only show you how much people are using the ability, not exactly why and how much they are enjoying it. That's his entire point, and it's a very legitimate one.
If you give me an overpowered ability I'll use it to get the most benefits from it, especially if I'm in a tight spot, but it doesn't mean I like its existence or how predominant it can be over any other strategy.
Funny thing ...
I dont use the overpowered ability, bcs then the game starts to feel "just the same over and over" pretty quick. laugh
I presume its all about attitude. :P
Telemetry wouldn't tell you that, either.

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The game play metadata does not represent me at all, since I do not have the game. And even if I did, how would they ever know that I would like to see an adventure into the City of Brass? Hmmm, that gives me an idea for the EA releases - provide a text feedback page where you can write in your opinions ... oh wait, maybe that is what the forums are for in the first place, so we can not only post suggestions but also so that people can interact with the developers and other players to flesh out ideas? But then why does no one from Larian post in the forums anymore? Agh, once again Argyle is lost in the Mysts of the Unknowing.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Funny thing ...
I dont use the overpowered ability
You'd have to be able to recognize its existence first.
Which can become harder when you are busy 24/7 defending whatever the devs come up with.

Originally Posted by grysqrl
Telemetry wouldn't tell you that, either.
Yeah, funny how that works.

Last edited by Tuco; 19/06/21 03:28 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Unfortunately for you and your desired playstyle, there are overpowered abilities in this game that you can not choose to avoid using.

For example, Advantage or disadvantage due to height is applied to every combat you take part in, it's not optional and advantage is the most overpowered ability modifier in the d20 bounded accuracy system.

No other modifier changes results as much as advantage, which is why larian included it they went straight to the most overpowered option to help the players that do not enjoy low rolls.

You can't even mod it out of combat via changing the Pak files as you can with most other combat abilities such as backstab, you would probably have to patch the executable. If it was easily done it would already be in one of the many combat mods already on nexusmods

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Originally Posted by grysqrl
Telemetry wouldn't tell you that, either.
And that its why it was funny. smile

You know ...
Can you remember when people was telling those, who were/are complaining about litteraly every rule they dont like, to "not use it" ? I can. laugh

And that is exactly core of the joke ...
IF they would listen, IF they would actualy play the game to enjoy it instead of being so powerfull as system allows ... Larian would have exactly the data, they wanted, or more likely they needed ...
Now all Larian can see is millions people showing, flanking, shooting from high ground, Wizzards learning Cleric spells, eating pigheads during the fight, and diping weapons in litteraly any liquid (or plasma in case of fire) they find ...
And many some of those people who do all this, is furious about that they do it, since they "dont want to" ... but as you said, that is nothing Larian could know. :P laugh

Isnt that funny? laugh
I find it extremely hilarious ... but i just love when stubborn person hits his own head. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 19/06/21 03:38 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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