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#777658 20/06/21 12:59 PM
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As a wizard guy, I go for this class or any magic using class in every game I play. But so far it seems that the wizard draws the short end of the stick way too much in this Baldur's gate. If I would add one suggestion it would be to add intelligence bonus to damage for the wizard evocation spells and cantrip's. Since those seem to play such a huge part in this game.

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Nah.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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Certain of their spells got kinda fucked up... Mostly debuffs. But there's a solo run mage on the web for BG3 I think. And yeah granted " someone did it" doesn't mean it works as it should( Cause someone also finished the game without leveling up).

Idk, I guess it's more a question of difficulty level. When they will be introduced should solve your problem with mages. And use mage armor + mirror image if you struggle with survivability.


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Originally Posted by Tuco
Nah.
+1


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Its because they upped the mobs hitpoints to that they'd last longer against melee/ranged but then didnt bother increasing the damage from spells, particularly as mob AC was generally lowered but saves were not.

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Wizard has issues in BG3, but not to being underpowered itself. Game mechanics make the class more frustrating to play than it should be.
  • Encounter AI usually focuses on wizards over other classes, even when it is illogical to do so. You can abuse this and control enemy movement in encounters.
  • Dim light disadvantage: Melee gets to counter this with backstab, with a wizard I hope you brought dark vision.
  • Verticality disadvantage/advantage: forces you to move a wizard into sub-optimal positions. The enemy wants the high ground and your wizard does too, so the game asks you to move the wizard next to the enemy.


If these three points are addressed wizard is fine. Note, none of these had any changes to the wizard class itself.

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Additionally, maybe because of the way the game does the camera angle, maybe for other reasons, combat arenas are small in size, and there are no longer any spells which allow the wizard to stay safely out of enemy range. If the wizard is at maximum range to Fire Bolt an enemy, the enemy can move and dash to get within melee range of the wizard, forcing the Wizard to disengage, and even then they'll never be out of range of the enemy.


Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Dim light disadvantage: Melee gets to counter this with backstab, with a wizard I hope you brought dark vision.

Not that it's a complete fix, but if you have a skull, you can drop it, cast the Light cantrip onto it, and toss the skull to provide light.

Last edited by Stabbey; 20/06/21 05:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Wizard has issues in BG3, but not to being underpowered itself. Game mechanics make the class more frustrating to play than it should be.
  • Encounter AI usually focuses on wizards over other classes, even when it is illogical to do so. You can abuse this and control enemy movement in encounters.
  • Dim light disadvantage: Melee gets to counter this with backstab, with a wizard I hope you brought dark vision.
  • Verticality disadvantage/advantage: forces you to move a wizard into sub-optimal positions. The enemy wants the high ground and your wizard does too, so the game asks you to move the wizard next to the enemy.


If these three points are addressed wizard is fine. Note, none of these had any changes to the wizard class itself.

Wizards also lack the Shield spell.

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If you're looking for pure damage potential, you should be fine as soon as fireball and lightning bolt are in.

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
If you're looking for pure damage potential, you should be fine as soon as fireball and lightning bolt are in.

Enemy HP has been substantially increased to compensate for their reduced AC, so those won't do as much damage as is expected.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Sigi98
If you're looking for pure damage potential, you should be fine as soon as fireball and lightning bolt are in.

Enemy HP has been substantially increased to compensate for their reduced AC, so those won't do as much damage as is expected.

That's true, but that applies to all classes. I thought OP was talking about wizard in comparison to other classes

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Wizards are too weak lmao...Early access you can solo the entire game using a shield dwarf wizard... Wizards are broken OP currently in early access. They currently have access to divine spells in the core game they should not. There is a head band of perfect intellect allowing you to do a str / con build and still get 18 intellect. Magic missle is the strongest spell in early access. Evocation wizards add int to damage roles as a class feature other wizard subclasses do not its part of the core to evocation wizards.

Wizards have access to every spell currently in Early access.

Casters in general in DND are not the highest single target damage dealers warriors are casters are aoe damage dealers. Its also not unheard of for enemies with intelligence in a party attacking the to take out the artillery as oppose to the tank. If you were in actual combat situations enemies being smart enough to take out the guy lobbing balls of fire in the cloth armor is not unexpected. Vs taking out the character in plate armor with a shield. There are lots of ways to reduce enemies attacking you as a wizard at the same time Misty step being the easiest utility spell for this getting yourself to a location where you are difficult to target while you reign fire down on your targets.

The idea wizards are under tuned is a little funny. Currently they are more powerful in early access than they should be. There primary spells are missing but at the same time melee classes are also missing there big utility abilities. Such as multi attack. So a wizard in early access has access to the best armor can use the same weapons as fighters, can cast all the spells a priest has access to. Does not need high int because they can get a headband of perfect intellect very early in the game. Basically they are a jack of all trades and best / only arcane spell casting option.

A shield dwarf mage is the single most over powered character in early access. 17 str 17 con, Heavy Armor, 18 Int, Can use 2 handed great swords as well as long sword and shield. You can even duel wield as if you needed more over powered abilities. They basically do everything. You can heal like a cleric do ranged damage with spells on par with any other class. Use a 2 hander at close range, Swap to duel wielding for an off hand attack. Switch to a shield for when your being attacked. Your getting 9 7 7 7 hp. You could even take great weapon fighting since you dont need heavy armor or take +1 str +1 con for even more hp and attack value.

So 34 hp 18 str 14 dex 18 con 18 int 8 wis 10 charisma in early access so you have a 19 ac before a shield spell // bonus action as needed. You can use a 2 handed sword when attacking in melee with a +4 damage bonus +1 for the sword so your dealing 2d6+5. You have access to magic missle to ensure you deal damage when you need to. You have ray of frost for ranged damage that you can do until the end of time with int modifier as an envoker. You have cleric healing spells because its in game currently though it should be removed eventually. So you have healing word / shield as optional bonus actions. You have a couple of aoe spell options if needed. If an enemy does come in melee range you can always 2 hander to the face. Swap to Duel wielding make an off hand attack swap to sword and shield so you have the higher ac when its there turn to attack you can even use a shield spell to buff your ac up to 21. A lot of this stuff is possible because the class is not as designed in 5e core aspect and the items / tools you have access to in early access that you should not due to action costs and things not working as designed.

You should not have access to divine spells at all. You shouldn't be able to swap weapons at a whim. And a headband of perfect intellect that early in the game is just exploitable. The entire game can be soloed with just a shield dwarf mage its been done already more than once.

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I believe you are missing his point ...
Its not matter of what potential Wizzard have ... he just want bigger numbers, when he casts a spell.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Exploits aside, and I do consider being able to learn other classes spells a exploit. A wizard just simply cannot compete with the other classes. Keep in mind I havent been trying to exploit the system, but to play a wizard as it's set up in D&D rules. A wizard with 18 strength can do more damage with a staff then a wizard with 18 intelligence can do using it's cantrips.....That's just not right.

Now unless it's expected that we rest a wizard after every fight. 1st and 2nd level spells (What we have access to so far anyways) are extremely limited. And shouldn't hurling a ball of fire (Even the cantrip) be every bit as deadly as a arrow shot from a longbow? It's not.

Last edited by PFlux; 20/06/21 06:31 PM.
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I dont know magic missle is probably amongst best damage early out for what you get out of it your talking average of 1d4+1x3 6-15 damage vs 2d6+4 = 6-16 damage its pretty even and magic missle cant miss. Top damage late game your talking. 1d4+1x5 so 10-25 damage vs 2d6+10+5 17-27 damage. But with a 30-60% chance to hit on the sword vs a 100% with missles.

More Static numbers +4 str bonus +1 weapon bonus +2d6 so your talking 10-25 vs 7-17 damage of dwing your talking 5+5 +2 so 12-22. Mages are a little stronger in early access overall damage wise. Outside big number damage but fighters can do more damage on the opener. Due to adrenaline rush and there your talking multi attack bonuses. There is the amulet that gives you+1 missle on your magic missle and you get an additional missle using it as a level 2 spell for 5 missles total. vs the best melee weapon being the justice sword. The numbers are pretty close overall. Magic missle having the 100% hit rate however. Numbers are pretty even. Outside game exploits. First turn the fighter has an edge for best possible damage but isnt consistent.

The numbers are pretty close to even. The fighter could make 2 attacks but at same time the mage can cast the missle's 3x at 5 missles and 4x at 4 missles. Also range is not limited and you can hit multiple targets. Generally speaking fighters do beat mages at single target damage vs the mage beats the fighter at aoe damage thats the biggest difference.

That's being specific to in game numbers. 8d6 lightning bolt is still 8-48 vs 34-50 at level 6 fire ball your hitting multiple targets. numbers are always pretty close but single target fighter always beats the mage at single target damage in dnd its the way the game is designed melee wins single target loses aoe damage war. The spell has the bigger single hit damage but the fighter is getting 2 attacks at the same time. DWing your talking 18-27 damage consistantly. Great weapon fighting being the biggest difference maker as every extra attack is adding an additional +10 damage. + Criticals vs not being able to Crit against 100% chance to hit.

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Originally Posted by PFlux
Exploits aside, and I do consider being able to learn other classes spells a exploit. A wizard just simply cannot compete with the other classes. Keep in mind I havent been trying to exploit the system, but to play a wizard as it's set up in D&D rules. A wizard with 18 strength can do more damage with a staff then a wizard with 18 intelligence can do using it's cantrips.....That's just not right.

Now unless it's expected that we rest a wizard after every fight. 1st and 2nd level spells (What we have access to so far anyways) are extremely limited. And shouldn't hurling a ball of fire (Even the cantrip) be every bit as deadly as a arrow shot from a longbow? It's not.

A wizard strictly by dnd rules is the utility caster vs the Sorcerer which is the battle caster. The sorcerer because of things like twinspell ect is the ideal aoe damage dealer hitting large numbers of enemies for above average damage but the fighter / barbarian up close with the 2 handed sword typically does the most damage on a target. I mean even if your a wizard a ball of fire on yourself doesnt really benefit you. Same time the archer could fire a bow typically faster than you could cast the words for a spell and if it hits your heart you would be just as dead IRL as if you lobbed a ball of flame which doesnt necessarily kill the target. It explodes catches everything on fire but even irl you can survive a moltive cocktail being throw at you more so than a bullet through the chest with accuracy. Thats applying logic to both people have survived being struck by lightning same regard more frequently than being shot in the heart with a bullet. I have an uncle that actually survived being struck by a lightning bolt. So i mean you do the math theoretical math the odds do make sense. It also does make sense to kill the damage over the tank. I mean when I play games I will generally kill the squishiest target first or the healer.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Enemy HP has been substantially increased to compensate for their reduced AC, so those won't do as much damage as is expected.

This actually isn't that much of a thing. The only enemies that exhibit this behavior are the goblins. Almost everything else is close to their actual tabletop stats. The bosses however are generally agreed upon to be extremely overtuned stat-wise if you're just fighting them from the perspective of a DnD game and not abusing Larian mechanics.

The real problem is generally everything else - the sheer number of enemies in some encounters which makes the action economy heavily stacked against the player, the lack of key reactions like Shield which would allow Wizards to defend themselves during the enemy turn, battlefield design which makes height such an overwhelming factor, the existence of the height mechanics themselves that results in the idea that AC below 14 might as well not exist on a statistically practical level if you're being attacked from high ground, enemies having new and overtuned items and abilities such as the special arrows and teleporting spiders with AoE spits and the minotaur being able to jump at your party from way beyond sight range with an AoE shockwave attack as a bonus action, and so on.

All that combined makes casters feel iffy to utilize if you're not using them to set up some insane alpha strike tactic.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 20/06/21 07:22 PM.
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The other day I made a wizard charactr and am currently playing through a run where Nobody uses any spells, class abilities or features at all, and everyone just uses shove and throw, and nothing else (haven't decided yet if I'll use bonus action food healing yet... haven't needed it yet though). It's truly disgusting how smoothly it's going and how little thought or effort is required to do this.

Not really a relative comment on wizards per se, but I choose wizard because they're archetypally the weakest for shoving and throwing... Still thought I might throw it in for an additional aside for how poorly made this game's combat mechanics are. It's so ridiculous.

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And that is where my issue lays. This is D&D, a wizard that isn't throwing spells around isn't a D&D wizard. Somebody mentioned a dwarven wizard soloing the game using a shield....what? Did Kelek use a shield? Vengure? Mestron the magnificent or Elminster? This game is going to be a hit. And rightfully so. And Larian is going to profit from this. Also rightfully so. But please, try to stay true to what put Dungeons and Dragons on the map.

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Originally Posted by Niara
The other day I made a wizard charactr and am currently playing through a run where Nobody uses any spells, class abilities or features at all, and everyone just uses shove and throw, and nothing else (haven't decided yet if I'll use bonus action food healing yet... haven't needed it yet though). It's truly disgusting how smoothly it's going and how little thought or effort is required to do this.

Not really a relative comment on wizards per se, but I choose wizard because they're archetypally the weakest for shoving and throwing... Still thought I might throw it in for an additional aside for how poorly made this game's combat mechanics are. It's so ridiculous.

Thats... sad.

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