Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Originally Posted by Bumblephist
It sounds like what he's really saying is that high strength characters are game breakingly overpowered and need to be nerfed IMMEDIATELY! Maybe cap Strength at 14 or 15 during character creation.

None of my non-strength based characters have been able to throw people around and usually can't even get a successful "Shove" going. It's just a wasted turn so I don't use Shove. I'll throw grease bottles though.

They could nerf Lae'Zel, too, then. Maybe drop her strength to 15 and bump her Con or Dex. (should probably put it into Charisma to be honest. She could use a boost there)

Just hide and you'll have 100% to shove.

Joined: Apr 2019
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Apr 2019
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Bumblephist
It sounds like what he's really saying is that high strength characters are game breakingly overpowered and need to be nerfed IMMEDIATELY! Maybe cap Strength at 14 or 15 during character creation.

None of my non-strength based characters have been able to throw people around and usually can't even get a successful "Shove" going. It's just a wasted turn so I don't use Shove. I'll throw grease bottles though.

They could nerf Lae'Zel, too, then. Maybe drop her strength to 15 and bump her Con or Dex. (should probably put it into Charisma to be honest. She could use a boost there)

Just hide and you'll have 100% to shove.


Except they aways see me coming unless they're staring out over the edge thinking wistfully of ... what ever it is they think of.

I'd also like to to see the Owlbear and Bulette being tossed around. Or doesn't it work on them? Because I could certainly believe a Str 17 char could toss a goblin around and probably bugbears and most "normal" size creatures with the proper leverage.

Joined: Nov 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
Originally Posted by Bumblephist
It sounds like what he's really saying is that high strength characters are game breakingly overpowered and need to be nerfed IMMEDIATELY! Maybe cap Strength at 14 or 15 during character creation.

None of my non-strength based characters have been able to throw people around and usually can't even get a successful "Shove" going. It's just a wasted turn so I don't use Shove. I'll throw grease bottles though.

They could nerf Lae'Zel, too, then. Maybe drop her strength to 15 and bump her Con or Dex. (should probably put it into Charisma to be honest. She could use a boost there)

The issue isn't with strength or even the concept of the mechanic, its the implementation. Base 5e doesn't have bonus action shoving. And not on this ridiculous level. And it is super easy to go into stealth right now and 100 percent shove people. Heck, a MAGE HAND, a cantrip that is meant to not harm people, can shove Goblins off cliffs with 100 percent chance. You could beat this game purely through Mage Hand, and only mage hand.
Capping strength would be going at the wrong part of the problem, changing the shove mechanic, which is already homebrew, would be the solution. Making it an action, make it not 100 percent chance with stealth, and make the distance scale with strength and less extreme, and it will be a much more reasonable mechanic and in fact could be a fun bit of homebrew.
Also, personally, Laezel's stat spread is fine. If anything, if I had to move stats around, I'd dump her wisdom and maybe her dex by a few points to give her some intellect so she can be a serviceable Eldritch Knight without the headband, always felt like a better subclass due to what I know about Githyanki fighters.
As it is right now, it is overpowered and is breaking and obsoleting the other systems.

Joined: Dec 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Dec 2020
I get the impression the reason why you don't hear as much hubbub around the throw action is because it's a relatively hidden thing (the game doesn't tell you that you can pick up larger objects and throw them, much less enemies), and that you need a higher strength score to pull it off. That means for MCs that aren't Strength-based, you MUST include Lae'zel in your party to notice this, and there's probably a fair number of people in the community who hate her enough to never consider that option.

I am entirely indifferent myself, and the highest strength score in my preferred party is my Bard at 13 strength, and it's only that high for carrying capacity purposes.

Once Paladin gets introduced, either the class itself and/or the companion, expect a lot more people to notice.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 23/06/21 06:57 AM.
Joined: Nov 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
I do a warlock, Gale, Shadowheart, and Astarion usually so strength for the party I make is fairly low but even then Push is abusable as all hell (Also randomly I'd up Astarion's int a teensy bit to make him a better candidate for Arcane Trickster, High Elf + Vampire feels like it'd conventionally be good for magic).

Joined: Apr 2019
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Apr 2019
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Originally Posted by Bumblephist
It sounds like what he's really saying is that high strength characters are game breakingly overpowered and need to be nerfed IMMEDIATELY! Maybe cap Strength at 14 or 15 during character creation.

None of my non-strength based characters have been able to throw people around and usually can't even get a successful "Shove" going. It's just a wasted turn so I don't use Shove. I'll throw grease bottles though.

They could nerf Lae'Zel, too, then. Maybe drop her strength to 15 and bump her Con or Dex. (should probably put it into Charisma to be honest. She could use a boost there)

The issue isn't with strength or even the concept of the mechanic, its the implementation. Base 5e doesn't have bonus action shoving. And not on this ridiculous level. And it is super easy to go into stealth right now and 100 percent shove people. Heck, a MAGE HAND, a cantrip that is meant to not harm people, can shove Goblins off cliffs with 100 percent chance. You could beat this game purely through Mage Hand, and only mage hand.
Capping strength would be going at the wrong part of the problem, changing the shove mechanic, which is already homebrew, would be the solution. Making it an action, make it not 100 percent chance with stealth, and make the distance scale with strength and less extreme, and it will be a much more reasonable mechanic and in fact could be a fun bit of homebrew.
Also, personally, Laezel's stat spread is fine. If anything, if I had to move stats around, I'd dump her wisdom and maybe her dex by a few points to give her some intellect so she can be a serviceable Eldritch Knight without the headband, always felt like a better subclass due to what I know about Githyanki fighters.
As it is right now, it is overpowered and is breaking and obsoleting the other systems.


Based on the DS:OSII post mortem video on the Game Developers Conference Youtube channel Larian puts that kind of stuff in there intentionally for the people who would have fun with it, for example on PvP and Co-op and people who are just looking for silly things they can have fun exploiting. I don't see how it's a problem for anyone who role-plays their character (and rolls a character as they'd really play it). I don't usually play a fighter for my main char but even if I did it wouldn't bother me if someone else played their high-strength character as a shove-and-throw character. Is this just about not having anything that isn't 5th Edition in the game? Because if that's the case then I suspect some people are setting themselves up for disappointment.

I also can't get hide to work the way some people seem to get it to work. I can't even get away with hiding behind the chimney on a rooftop or being on the other side of the rooftop ridge. If the enemy even sniffs in my direction it usually breaks my concealment and then they start lobbing acid/fire/grease bombs at me and buffing their friends. I believe the engine needs better (3d) line-of-site calculations. If an Ogre(?) is at ground level and I'm hiding on the other side of a rooftop ridge it shouldn't be able to see me but they usually can if the ground level distance is within their vision cone.

And I haven't had any better luck with Mage Hand. Does Mage Hand use the Strength of the caster? I'd love to be able to use Mage Hand to clobber certain enemies but I can't. I can't even use it to pick up a bottle (antitoxin?) that's on top of a mantle in a certain dungeon. In fact I can't get to that bottle any way I try even though I can clear the rest of the stuff from the top of that fireplace mantle. But I can break it with a range attack. But that's beside the point. Why care if someone else can beat the game using a tactic you wouldn't use? Let them have their fun. The relevant question is: "Can the human at the keyboard beat the game by playing the way they want?" The game isn't being written for any one of us nor just one group of player. The GDC videos show that Larian wants people with different play styles to have fun their own way. That's a good thing.

On the other hand: Mage Hand not being able to bring me stuff is a problem. Items that say "Unknown Name" (or whatever it was) when I mouse over them is a problem; a cosmetic problem, sure, but it's going to look bad if it's in the released version. Placeholder graphics showing in inventories is a problem. Being seen when it shouldn't be possible to see me and I'm not moving is a problem. Having to climb over boxes and down to get to the space between the wall and the boxes just to open a barrel next to them that I should obviously be able to reach without moving is a problem. I'm guessing the container objects have a "front" that indicates the place the player needs to stand to interact with the container and the dev placing the objects isn't paying attention to how the objects are placed. There have even been bookcases that aren't accessible from the front of the bookcase; the game wants you to walk to the other side of the dungeon wall behind the bookcase. That's a problem. I won't even get into the "stickiness" of the character chaining for party management. Dynamic movement of tails, hair, and dead bodies going "wacky" and flip flopping all over the place is a problem. The occasional "two overlapping health bars" is a problem. The animated dialog scenes with chars standing on top of each other and items obstructing the camera view is a problem. The dialog camera looking at nothing is a problem. There was a problem with weight management where if you sold a stack of 5 items that weighed one pound each (so 5 pounds for the stack) it only reduced the weight you were carrying by one pound. And the list goes on. When this next update drops I'm going to make a bigger effort to open more bugs reports for problems.


Anyway, I still don't understand what the problem is with having things in the game that other people would use that I wouldn't. It just needs to be winnable when I play my way at some difficulty setting even if it's "old man with bad eyes" mode. It shouldn't have to be "my way or the highway".

Joined: Nov 2020
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
Mage Hand as far as I know can take the hide action, which works if a target is not seeing you. Right now hide is very broken and you can do it mid combat as long as you are far enough away from the vision cones. And so a normal mage hand can essentially hide and then push. Have the caster way out of combat and you essentially can freely push enemies without even encountering them. Same with an imp or arcane trickster mage hand, but even worse cause they can be invisible thereby getting hide easier and thus pushing so much easier.

And the concern is a balance thing, and Larian balancing the game around the homebrew, when the homebrew should instead be balanced to the system.

If the game is based around it, it'll become a shove fest. And if it isn't but shove is unchanged, the challenge is completely removed and classes feel more like set dressing. If shove is balanced it'll actually feel like a rewarding mechanic that isn't an instant win button and a natural part of the game.

Also I have a laundry list of problems with mage hand, shove just being one in said list. I've ranted on it a lot.

Last edited by CJMPinger; 23/06/21 12:29 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Niara
The other day I made a wizard charactr and am currently playing through a run where Nobody uses any spells, class abilities or features at all, and everyone just uses shove and throw, and nothing else (haven't decided yet if I'll use bonus action food healing yet... haven't needed it yet though). It's truly disgusting how smoothly it's going and how little thought or effort is required to do this.

Not really a relative comment on wizards per se, but I choose wizard because they're archetypally the weakest for shoving and throwing... Still thought I might throw it in for an additional aside for how poorly made this game's combat mechanics are. It's so ridiculous.

Honestly the better way to look at balancing that would be to really consider the point in the game and make some of the fights more balance in line with party and some fights where you need to use the tactics like push and shove or barrels. Like both times when I did the goblin cave I simply walked all around the building and placed barrels next toe enemies till the floor was covered shot one arrow covered in fire and cleared the room. Spider burning the web makes sense to make the fighter easier other encounters that stuff should be significantly less impactful. When your at a numbers disadvantage or levels disadvantage now and then those tactics should be made usable but other times it should not be and it should be made more difficult since the druid play through the most challenging fight I found was the minotaurs which felt a little over tuned for level you end up typically fighting them at being around 3-4. The bullet running frequently was annoying the first time I encountered it in the current patch as well was annoying after my party was knocked prone when it spawned my party was lower end of hp I might I had 1 character go down I had rezed them back up bullet was about half way but felt like it could go either way cause i had not used a short or long rest and most of my abilities were used up I think i had like 4 spell slots between the characters with almost all my abilities expended so fight was pretty even paced i felt like the bullet should not have run there as well it should have tried to make me reload my save file at least even if the odds were about 20-30% it could have won the fight.

Its just about the concept they should retune some of the fights mechanically.

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Niara
The other day I made a wizard charactr and am currently playing through a run where Nobody uses any spells, class abilities or features at all, and everyone just uses shove and throw, and nothing else (haven't decided yet if I'll use bonus action food healing yet... haven't needed it yet though). It's truly disgusting how smoothly it's going and how little thought or effort is required to do this.

Not really a relative comment on wizards per se, but I choose wizard because they're archetypally the weakest for shoving and throwing... Still thought I might throw it in for an additional aside for how poorly made this game's combat mechanics are. It's so ridiculous.
Can you please record me encounters with Bulette, Minotaurs, and Githyanki Patrol? laugh

The bullette and the Gith are pretty easy in general the minotaurs are by far in patch 4 the hardest fight in the early access. Prior to patch 4 they were not bad you could pretty easily take them down seems like they were tuned up in patch 4 to the point of being a little over tuned. Its pretty easy for a party to get caught off guard even if fully preped for the fight at level 3 or a squishier party. Especially with 1 character having resistance to a specific damage type. Also they do tend to jump your wizard first which can make the fight a pain in the buttox.

The bullet isnt to bad if your abilities are all up and running and you dont get your whole party knocked down. It will honestly run outside that also for the person thinking of pushing / shoving that fight generally you dont encounter the bullet on high ground so pushing / shoving doesnt really work for that and if you were to use it to say a bottomless pit you would lose out on the loot off it.

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by PFlux
And that is where my issue lays. This is D&D, a wizard that isn't throwing spells around isn't a D&D wizard. Somebody mentioned a dwarven wizard soloing the game using a shield....what? Did Kelek use a shield? Vengure? Mestron the magnificent or Elminster? This game is going to be a hit. And rightfully so. And Larian is going to profit from this. Also rightfully so. But please, try to stay true to what put Dungeons and Dragons on the map.

I mentioned you can use a shield dwarf wizard to solo the game its been done a few times now. Because of dwarves getting proficency to use the best armor 2 handed weapons and access to a head band of intellect as early as level 3 if you are smart about it. So you can build a shield dwarf with stats like 17 14 17 8 8 10 and still be in an ok spot because at level 4 you will be at 18 14 18 18 8 10 for stats. You'll get optimum ac bonus and basically only 1 below average stat. In addition you can basically equip 2 hander for melee combat swap to an off hand to get an extra off hand attack for a bonus action then switch to weapon and shield before ending your turn to keep your armor class bonus up. They can cast divine spells by getting them all the scrolls and cast mage spells so you can magic missle and healing word on the same turn if you need to. There is also an item will let you get +1 extra missle from magic missle you can exploit for even more pew pew.

So basically you get a 17 flat ac 19 with shield equiped 21 with shield spell as a bonus action if you need it. You have access to magic missle, healing word, and misty step so you never has issues with ranged damage or healing or closing distance. you have a +5 to hit in melee + proficency bonus the extra attack doesnt matter because your level capped at 4. You dont need stealth mechanics because you have access to the darkness spell if you need it. Also you can just swap asterion in if you need to pick pocket something. Without using him for the fights. or save scum till you succeed for it. You get +4 hp on every level as well putting your around 30-34 hp range at level 4. You basically get to be a better fighter cleric mage and rogue than other classes. And you dont need a bow because you can just ray of frost targets if you need to for ranged damage. Its more exploitable than it should be if wizards didnt have access to all the divine spells as well it would be less broken but still a little over powered at low levels. Currently because of divine spells being castable its brokenly over powered.

Normally low levels wizards are fairly week till about level 5. The headband of perfect intellect and lack ability to role ability score also impacts this a lot with being over tuned. Having above average ability scores is going to make anything feel strong.

Joined: Apr 2019
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Apr 2019
Originally Posted by CJMPinger
Mage Hand as far as I know can take the hide action, which works if a target is not seeing you. Right now hide is very broken and you can do it mid combat as long as you are far enough away from the vision cones. And so a normal mage hand can essentially hide and then push. Have the caster way out of combat and you essentially can freely push enemies without even encountering them. Same with an imp or arcane trickster mage hand, but even worse cause they can be invisible thereby getting hide easier and thus pushing so much easier.

And the concern is a balance thing, and Larian balancing the game around the homebrew, when the homebrew should instead be balanced to the system.

If the game is based around it, it'll become a shove fest. And if it isn't but shove is unchanged, the challenge is completely removed and classes feel more like set dressing. If shove is balanced it'll actually feel like a rewarding mechanic that isn't an instant win button and a natural part of the game.

Also I have a laundry list of problems with mage hand, shove just being one in said list. I've ranted on it a lot.

I'll have to try hiding out of sight and sending the mage hand in for shoving then. That sounds useful so thanks for that. I don't remember the Mage Hand lasting very long though. Like last time I tried that the hand disappeared after one turn because it took so long to get to the target. And it didn't even do anything to the enemy which I assumed was because it used the Strength of the caster. If that's the case then it will probably be no more useful than when my Str 10 Wizard tries to shove.

And I'm concerned about balance, too. I'd hate to see the game balanced for the edge cases and the cheese. I keep seeing stuff nerfed out of the game and arguments for more nerfing. (My Ranger still wants his Dire Spider companion back. At least I think it was a Dire Spider. It was useful and patch 4 turned it into a nearly useless, wussy wood(?) spider.) If this EA is at the base level difficulty and all the useful features are nerfed out people will turn to the cheese to get through and if that's removed then mods to change the game which only helps people who can write mods or who can find a mod that does what they want. And if people can't enjoy the game without mods they're not going to feel good about their purchase. I'd like the next patch to include difficulty levels so Larian can leave the fun stuff in for base and easier difficulties and pull out or nerf things for the harder difficulties; but I'm not holding my breath.

And I still don't understand how having an effective shove gimmick turns the game into a shove fest unless the players simply have no self control. But if they're having fun does it even matter? The important thing is that it should be possible to get through base difficulty without dying. Not easy, but possible. Having a base difficulty that requires you constantly reload and try again or which requires you know exactly what's coming isn't fun. The game should be balanced for "first contact". That first play through should be survivable and fun on the base level. Not easy and you may barely escape some fights and have to rest and try again. But I hope they don't make it like that ridiculous video game from '80s(?) which was video playback from a laser disc player driven by simple left/right/dodge/jump actions. People had to memorize the order of each action to get to the end and there always seemed to be a line of people ready to pump quarters into it. (of course I was still playing the vector games like Tac-Scan, Space Duel (one-player, two-ship mode), and Tempest so we all have our weaknesses).

and my wireless keeps glitching so I'm going back to sleep.

Joined: Oct 2017
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Oct 2017
Originally Posted by acatlas
I mentioned you can use a shield dwarf wizard to solo the game its been done a few times now. Because of dwarves getting proficency to use the best armor 2 handed weapons and access to a head band of intellect as early as level 3 if you are smart about it. So you can build a shield dwarf with stats like 17 14 17 8 8 10 and still be in an ok spot because at level 4 you will be at 18 14 18 18 8 10 for stats. You'll get optimum ac bonus and basically only 1 below average stat. In addition you can basically equip 2 hander for melee combat swap to an off hand to get an extra off hand attack for a bonus action then switch to weapon and shield before ending your turn to keep your armor class bonus up. They can cast divine spells by getting them all the scrolls and cast mage spells so you can magic missle and healing word on the same turn if you need to. There is also an item will let you get +1 extra missle from magic missle you can exploit for even more pew pew.

So basically you get a 17 flat ac 19 with shield equiped 21 with shield spell as a bonus action if you need it. You have access to magic missle, healing word, and misty step so you never has issues with ranged damage or healing or closing distance. you have a +5 to hit in melee + proficency bonus the extra attack doesnt matter because your level capped at 4. You dont need stealth mechanics because you have access to the darkness spell if you need it. Also you can just swap asterion in if you need to pick pocket something. Without using him for the fights. or save scum till you succeed for it. You get +4 hp on every level as well putting your around 30-34 hp range at level 4. You basically get to be a better fighter cleric mage and rogue than other classes. And you dont need a bow because you can just ray of frost targets if you need to for ranged damage. Its more exploitable than it should be if wizards didnt have access to all the divine spells as well it would be less broken but still a little over powered at low levels. Currently because of divine spells being castable its brokenly over powered.
This sounds broken af lol


"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Joined: Nov 2020
Location: Austria
member
Offline
member
Joined: Nov 2020
Location: Austria
One can only hope Larian introduces the concept of "Session 0" to the game.

Be it in a minimalistic version --> LOTS of options, or in a more elaborate way --> explaining all of the HUGE amount of options in a separate tutorial. Heck, they should even ask you when starting a new game, if you want a "Session 0".

And by LOTS of options I mean:
High ground (game mechanical) advantage on/off/flat bonus
Backstabbing advantage on/off
Flanking on/off
Bonus Actions RAW/Larian style
Weapon swapping RAW/Larian style
...
and so forth

And "Session 0" should be separate of the nautiloid ship, maybe in Baldurs Gate or I'm some village or whatever.

That would make many, many people happy, I believe.

There is a reason why WotC, DndBeyond and others praise it so much.

Joined: Aug 2014
old hand
Offline
old hand
Joined: Aug 2014
So many people are advocating for these grossly overpowered features like Throw or Barrels. On an easy or "Larian fun" difficulty setting sure, but not on normal or higher. They are a gimmick that turns combat into a joke so they shouldn't be what the game is balanced around.

This thread was about Wizards but everyone is talking about Throw. That says it all.

Joined: Jan 2021
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Jan 2021
Originally Posted by daMichi
One can only hope Larian introduces the concept of "Session 0" to the game.

Be it in a minimalistic version --> LOTS of options, or in a more elaborate way --> explaining all of the HUGE amount of options in a separate tutorial. Heck, they should even ask you when starting a new game, if you want a "Session 0".

And by LOTS of options I mean:
High ground (game mechanical) advantage on/off/flat bonus
Backstabbing advantage on/off
Flanking on/off
Bonus Actions RAW/Larian style
Weapon swapping RAW/Larian style
...
and so forth

And "Session 0" should be separate of the nautiloid ship, maybe in Baldurs Gate or I'm some village or whatever.

That would make many, many people happy, I believe.

There is a reason why WotC, DndBeyond and others praise it so much.
It'd be really cool to have a session zero built into the game.

Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Online Content
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
Originally Posted by 1varangian
This thread was about Wizards but everyone is talking about Throw. That says it all.

That was my fault for the derail. I had meant it to only be a little aside to the thread, but other folks took more of an interest than I planned.

I'm intending to continue the run and make notes along with the screenshots, etc., and when I'm ready I'll put it up in its own thread, so for the time being, I'll just ask that people let this thread get back to to original core of its discussion and leave my silly experiment on its own for now.

Joined: Jan 2009
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
Originally Posted by Bumblephist
Based on the DS:OSII post mortem video on the Game Developers Conference Youtube channel Larian puts that kind of stuff in there intentionally for the people who would have fun with it, for example on PvP and Co-op and people who are just looking for silly things they can have fun exploiting. I don't see how it's a problem for anyone who role-plays their character (and rolls a character as they'd really play it). I don't usually play a fighter for my main char but even if I did it wouldn't bother me if someone else played their high-strength character as a shove-and-throw character. Is this just about not having anything that isn't 5th Edition in the game? Because if that's the case then I suspect some people are setting themselves up for disappointment.

(snip)

Anyway, I still don't understand what the problem is with having things in the game that other people would use that I wouldn't. It just needs to be winnable when I play my way at some difficulty setting even if it's "old man with bad eyes" mode. It shouldn't have to be "my way or the highway".

The issue with adding a bunch of silly things that can be exploited is that players naturally gravitate towards things that help them win in the easiest way. D&D mechanics and rules are based around attrition - you use up resources to gain some kind of benefit. Bigger benefits tend to have higher costs or chances of failure. When players can get bigger benefits for really cheap costs (through silly exploit the game stuff), it devalues the mechanics which have higher costs, and players will be less inclined to use those.

It makes the effort Larian is going through to put in all the original pen-and-paper mechanics, systems, and spells somewhat of a waste because players will be using the "silly things to exploit the game" mechanics a lot more than the pen-and-paper stuff.

Joined: Apr 2019
stranger
Offline
stranger
Joined: Apr 2019
Well I rolled up a Shield Dwarf Wizard with Str 17; Sex 14; Con 17; Int 8; Wis 8; Cha 10 and didn't even make it off the ship alive. Couldn't sneak up on anything by Hiding, Casting Mage Hand, making sure I was hidden, sending the hand in and *boom* it was always spotted and combat started. If it was hit once it would vanish. Certainly nothing that would help a weak Wizard survive.

To add insult to injury (Spoiler below):

When I got to the Helm each round I moved each char as far as I could to the tentacled control thingy then used it's action to attack Imps to keep the path clear. It was the quickest run to the control pod I've made so far but unfortunately Commander Z killed the last mind flayer then made short work of me one turn before Lae'Zel twanged the tentacles. First time the battle between Commander Z and the mind flayer ended "early" although it's been close before. That may need some tweaking.

So the shove/toss mechanic doesn't make up for the weakness of Wizards as far as I can tell. If I could actually sneak up on the enemy it might have been different.

What, if anything, boosts spell resistance? Maybe Mage Armour could boost Spell Resistance so that enemies couldn't so effectively use Sleep against Wizards. Gale usually hits the ground, snoozing, before he can do anything useful and too often stays asleep through the whole battle. If Wizards weren't taken out of the fight so quickly they'd probably fair better.

So I agree that Wizards are underpowered and would add that I feel a lot of the battles are overpowered in favor of the enemy.

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Bumblephist
Well I rolled up a Shield Dwarf Wizard with Str 17; Sex 14; Con 17; Int 8; Wis 8; Cha 10 and didn't even make it off the ship alive. Couldn't sneak up on anything by Hiding, Casting Mage Hand, making sure I was hidden, sending the hand in and *boom* it was always spotted and combat started. If it was hit once it would vanish. Certainly nothing that would help a weak Wizard survive.

To add insult to injury (Spoiler below):

When I got to the Helm each round I moved each char as far as I could to the tentacled control thingy then used it's action to attack Imps to keep the path clear. It was the quickest run to the control pod I've made so far but unfortunately Commander Z killed the last mind flayer then made short work of me one turn before Lae'Zel twanged the tentacles. First time the battle between Commander Z and the mind flayer ended "early" although it's been close before. That may need some tweaking.

So the shove/toss mechanic doesn't make up for the weakness of Wizards as far as I can tell. If I could actually sneak up on the enemy it might have been different.

What, if anything, boosts spell resistance? Maybe Mage Armour could boost Spell Resistance so that enemies couldn't so effectively use Sleep against Wizards. Gale usually hits the ground, snoozing, before he can do anything useful and too often stays asleep through the whole battle. If Wizards weren't taken out of the fight so quickly they'd probably fair better.

So I agree that Wizards are underpowered and would add that I feel a lot of the battles are overpowered in favor of the enemy.

Playing solo is still a skill check. Playing party wise it should be easy you just play the shield dwarf similar to a fighter with magic missle till you get the headband and you cant just hide you still need to make use of your spell mechanics to off set skills. Its the ability to play the class properly. Remember you can strop lazeals armor for armor bonus cause that gives you a 17 ac.

Joined: Oct 2020
member
Offline
member
Joined: Oct 2020
Ive done the bridge + the mid flyer // both cambions and all the imps using a 4 character party with multiplayer tuned the way i wanted it to be tuned. There are skill cap ways to do things like using the Enviroment is a way to make alot of the content easier. When your playing a solo character your going to cheese as much as you humanly can to do content. Wizard and Eldritch Knight are the only characters ive seen do a solo run thus far. Which is essentially doing the fights the same way your exploiting magic missle and armor advantage and you still use things like barrels make fights favorable via positions where you can use shove from high ground, all of those things are tools your going to need to do to solo a run but the ship you should easily be able to clear that with any class / spec / build. I could honestly probably clear it with a character with all 8's for ability scores its not that difficult to clear the ship and as any race the ship is like a free clear unless your trying to clear zariel / the mind flyer. You can kill the first set of imps with like 1 attack so. Like wise you can clear the second set in a similar fashion using Oil from barrels and arrows dipped in fire.

When your at a numbers disadvantage tactics like that make sense. There are lots of ways to advantage fights. Like skeletons in the crypt. You can move them all while they are unconcious via str 16+ character 17 is easier. to one corner with the switch res them and aoe kill them with 2 attacks. You could also do something similar using barrels with a single character. Slow time, Haste pot, push button end turn cleave jump clear throw barrel with any flammable object placed. Thats the solo way to do the fight you can also prebarrel and use a fire arrow plus cleave with the right placement of the adds and the fire. Prebarrel pop oil fire press button cleave the adds when they spawn. They will all die from fire ticks on there turn if your cleave hits all the adds.

There are plenty of ways to go outside the box for advantage. I mean you those effects are thinking outside the box that as a dm players should be rewarded for being creative. I've played more than my share of campaigns where i got creative to shut the dm down on stuff they were like theres no way you guys will survive this. Skeletons around dismember the corpses before they become a problem. Necromancer is a problem strip the graveyard at night to remove any options to animate dead bodys for the necromancer. Large number of enemies buy poison with delayed effect deliver it with free wine. There are lots of ways to get creative to even out numbers in a fight when the odds are against you having ways to do that is not something I myself am against. But it should not always be something that feels like your doing the same thing frequently I think chapter one limits that a bit as a lot of the map situations make that the best tactic.

I would home they think of alternate ways to get around that down the road. Water soaked ground is a good way to stop fire issues. Make people get creative use lighting ect instead or ice + arrows to be different.

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5