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Joined: Jun 2020
Niara Offline OP
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This Thread is feedback focused on the issues with game-play and the trivialising of its own mechanics by way of the home-brew mechanics introduced in BG3. This isn't one of my normal focused feedback threads because it won't delve into the specific details of the mechanics themselves, but rather is a demonstrative journey that illustrates in a real setting what these mechanics do to the game.

In particular, the purpose of this thread is to discuss and illustrate the way in which the homebrew introduces globally across the game render all other aspects of character choice more or less irrelevant, redundant and ultimately superseded by an overtly more effective way to play that overbears them.

Larian's design for BG3 gives all characters, regardless of their class, race or other abilities and features, a number of universal options that overbear and overpower everything else; they can throw excessive amounts, excessive distances, for excessive degrees of damage, and without limit. They can shove creatures and objects as a bonus action in the same turn, or, if they don't wish to shove, can duck into stealth using that bonus action instead, to which the AI cannot respond. Added to this, they can all heal as a bonus action, thanks to a wide array of freely available food, although to date I have not even needed to use this feature at all, so overbearingly effective are the other elements mentioned above.

Designed like this, in its current form, there is no real purpose or value to class abilities, spells, skills, or indeed any element of a character at all – save perhaps their strength score, which makes this already too effective element even more so. Because of this, there is no real 'tactical' play available. Nothing is tactical at all, or even requiring any thought – every battle follows the same strategy, and deviating from it is only ever less effective that sticking to it. Functionally speaking, the game punishes you for doing anything else, or adopting any other strategy, more or less. This is a Problem.

To illustrate this, I started a new play through of BG3 Act I.

Meet Ka'chu'ka, Githyanki Wizzard (two z's, she insists). She is a Good and Strong Wizzard. She is a Good Wizzard because she knows TWO spells. The Spells are “Throw” and “Shove”. Kk'chu'ka is a Good Wizzard because she knows these spells super good. She can cast them as many times as she wants each day, and she never gets tired. Other Wizzards must surely envy her abilities, she thinks.

https://imgur.com/RjzW6sz

Ka'chu'ka is a good Teacher, too. She teaches all of her friends the magic spells of “Throw” and “Shove”, and insists that they practice them, and use them, to the complete exclusion of all else, like she does.

For this play through, no-one used any class abilities, features or spells, of any sort. The only actions I permitted were Larian's specific home brew features – so, Throw in its current implementation, Bonus Action Shove, Bonus Action Stealth, Jump, and Help-To-Raise in its current form. I'll eat food to heal outside of combat, but only the food I find on the way – I won't go out of my way to accrue it. If I feel I need it, I'll let them eat food as a bonus action in combat as well, but I intend to ignore this homebrew unless I need it. That's it. If I do have wipes and failures, I'll note where they happen or reloads for other reasons, but I'll try to roll with the punches (and arrows of roaring thunder) elsewise.

Since wearing armour requires armour proficiency, and that would technically be using a proficiency gained from class, no-one is allowed to wear any armour or carry any weapons either (or indeed to equip anything at all, I've decided, even jewellery)

I'll highlight the major battles, with some descriptions of what happened, along with the screen shots I've been capturing along the way. I'll try to show what I'm throwing, and who I am throwing it at, or who I am shoving and where, etc.,

Waking up on the nautiloid and progressing through was fairly uninteresting; there were plenty of things to throw and no real challenges. I did not acquire Us, since the adorable little brain can't really throw things or shove people. I also didn't interact with Shadow, other than to steal her stuff. We pick up, at the entrance to the major battle on the nautiloid, at the Helm.

https://imgur.com/NFrM79K

I've brought a few bodies with me, just because they were there, but the fight begins in earnest, because I forgot that starting in stealth will cause the combat itself to progress without you – oops!

https://imgur.com/w6lRa2u

By the time we rush in, the imps have begun to manoeuvre, but we quickly put a stop to the first one by braining it with a nearby nautiloid tank. One down. Meanwhile, Lae'zel kills a second one by throwing her handy charred body at it, and we begin moving across the room.

https://imgur.com/SJiey0n
https://imgur.com/8ZV8nLb

Round two, I try to kill the third imp by hurling it into the nodes at the ceiling, but it only takes one damage from the impact and no fall damage because it's flying already, I presume. Oh well. Lae'zel corrects my mistake by throwing another body. Thanks Lae!

https://imgur.com/ew2EfNZ
https://imgur.com/Jt9UYSU

Our illithid is actually looking pretty poorly – he's not had much luck, and took a nasty hit or two before we engaged as well. No time to lose! I throw Commander Zhalk into the rafter, where he impacts the brine bulbs and apparently gets stuck. Huh. Didn't know that could happen – I had only meant to throw him down the other end of the room and deal some good impact and fall damage. Oh well!

https://imgur.com/JoFkJx9
https://imgur.com/6wtGLQ6

Unable to reach Zhalk, our illithid friend decides to take it out on the imps that have just spawned, and rushes to attack them... though he doesn't get there and leaves Lae'zel to throw her armour at the nearest imp instead. A solid hit, it dies.

https://imgur.com/Saq5kB4

Zhalk shouts at us, he seems mad.

https://imgur.com/aKg7pbT

Ka quickly hurls one of the remaining imps at the other, to decent effect, though they both survive the impact; she retrieves Lae's armour, while our illithid friend finishes one of the imps. Lae'zel, not to be put off, conducts an experiment to see whether a dead illithid is better at killing imps than a live one. It is at least as good.

https://imgur.com/0mHGqkt
https://imgur.com/BeCi9oR


Zhalk's still stuck. No sign of his back up yet; we're actually done before they arrive. This has been the most efficiently I've ever cleared the room. The illithid knows Zhalk is there, but can't get to him; they exchange threatening words. At last, Zhalk's reinforcements arrive.

https://imgur.com/IHaDdDj
https://imgur.com/C39tkKo
https://imgur.com/OCfQGBa

Illithids Attack! Well, one does, the other needs a helping arm. The first cambion runs past our illithid friend (provoking some tentacle action), to try to reach Lae'zel; he doesn't quite get there, so she closes the gap and hurls him into the roof – another brine bulb to be precise.

https://imgur.com/HWV5eCf
https://imgur.com/iaQfksH
https://imgur.com/dM95o2D

The throw impact, fall damage and Brine bulb dropping and spreading on the floor add together to almost finish of the first cambion, as well as knocking him prone – 23 damage from a level one character in one action with zero chance of failure on my side.

https://imgur.com/zy8wuxC

The other cambion finishes off our illithid and sets his sights on us, while his friend melts to death in the acid at the start of his turn. We throw some dead imps at him while we wait for him to get closer.

https://imgur.com/DDyQXGm

When he does, we chuck him right back again; impact damage, and fall damage, and prone again. Not quite as good damage this time, but we repeat the process when he runs close again, and that ends him.

https://imgur.com/V0CEArN

We're about to leave when we remember Zhalk, still stuck in the ceiling. Ka has a spell for getting people down off high platforms; it's called throw. She throws a candle at him.

https://imgur.com/18XbzH8

The results are... Excessive. When he runs up to us, not quite making it, we close the gap and throw him back into another brine bulb; he does not survive the landing.

https://imgur.com/aWl0OkB
https://imgur.com/Pps0grV

And with that, and some quick and careful looting, it's tentacle time. This was easily the fastest, safest and most efficient run I've ever cleared this room in, and it was depressingly dull.

https://imgur.com/1CmCnnw

For this battle I'll mention that even had Zhalk not gotten stuck in the rafters, it would have been a small matter to continually throw him back down the length of the room, or into the other cambions; it might actually have made the fight even faster, had he not hung about in the ceiling.

Anyway, we hit the beach, level up, and take a nap; the fury of our anger to chuck all the things burns pure and bright.

https://imgur.com/oRV7Ztw
https://imgur.com/gThwCbH

Last edited by Niara; 30/06/21 11:35 AM.
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Next morning we wander the beach, and find that lady who was in the pod. We stole her stuff before. Our first interaction didn't go well; she threatened Ka and told her to step off, and Ka wasn't the kind to not call that bluff. A fight broke out, Ka won initiate, so ran up to her and threw her into a barrel by the rocks. She went very splat. So much for her tough-guy bravado...

https://imgur.com/bisdMAw
https://imgur.com/FkGkkt7

It was at this point that I tapped Ka on the shoulder and reminded her that we're playing a team game, we reloaded and talked her down instead. Team No-Class adds another to its membership, and we put Shadow through her initiation rite – stripping her down and taking all of her weapons. Welcome to the team!

https://imgur.com/afj1p8O

We move on, throwing our equipment at the enemies we come across. I felt that I should probably make an admission here; I had said I wasn't going to let anyone use armour or weapons, since proficiency in those comes from class... but I guess, in away, hurling suites of half-plate at my enemies to kill them is, technically speaking, using armour.

https://imgur.com/uiEB2CM

It's awkwardly effective.

https://imgur.com/giuPL3P

Down the road we find, chat up, and strip naked a cute vampire boy. Welcome to the team, Astarion.

https://imgur.com/FYu6qRW

Nearby, we find our apparently still alive illithid friend. He's not happy to see us, so we grab him and dash his brains out by tossing him into a nearby fire.

https://imgur.com/cCG5Sti

Up the road, we find a handsome waterdhavian noble, and put him through the standard hazing. Team No-Class is now full up!

https://imgur.com/Gkf8alL

Just around the corner, however, we come across our friend Lae'zel! Ka threatens the tieflings into leaving, and then bashes the cage open with a shortbow she found lying nearby.

https://imgur.com/xklghSF

I did a quick assessment, and decided that I would need to keep Gale with me, so he could learn more of Ka's special brand of wizzarding, and we sent Astariaon to flounce around our camp and drink wine. Also, he can't carry as many boxes and crates and spare sets of armour as Gale can.

https://imgur.com/Kkppb1O

The next major encounter was supposed to be the fight outside the ruins, but, well...

https://imgur.com/OiRoXqL

We threw the halfling into the rope, and almost everyone died, immediately, leaving just Quelanna to get offended at our actions. Gale, who had been lagging behind a bit and missed the combat roll, sneaked around and shoved her off the ledge, then Ka beat her skull in with a pair of boots. So much for that.

https://imgur.com/nOhoxos
https://imgur.com/FOaQVMu
https://imgur.com/6wLG1Xk

We walked up to the door, informed them that we'd just killed everyone outside, and were now coming to murderise them as well. Then promptly walked back and slipped in through the broken hole instead of the door they were obviously trapping. They weren't really very perceptive.

https://imgur.com/dgWNWNC

I moved the exploding barrel, then attempted to open the fight by throwing a nautilod tank at the group. Unfortunately, I forgot that they don't actually explode on contact, unless there's an open flame already. They were quite surprised, but only the one whose head I broke it over got hurt.

https://imgur.com/ty12xpa

I rectified my mistake with a torch, next turn, before any of them actually acted.

https://imgur.com/CHUY9CV

Ka is such a good wizzard.

https://imgur.com/A11yOp4

The others got into the fight by throwing things at the one remaining looter, though they had some rotten luck and missed him with almost everything for a round. Ka figured maybe he'd be happier if we gave him some loot. She threw a very fancy, very heavy reliquary to him.

https://imgur.com/V8MBM9l

He didn't seem to want it. She took it back.

https://imgur.com/4MbUtWp

Moving on, the next major event was the crypt itself. We threw all the bodies into a neat pile, to better search them, but then they started getting antsy when we pushed a button.

https://imgur.com/x7sZQDw

Here we tried to do something clever, and and threw down a bottle of grease, then followed it up with a burning torch... but it really didn't have the impact that the nautiloid tanks have... they all got a bit toasty, but then started running out of the fire! Lae'zel cast me a disappointed look and tossed another nautiloid tank at the group.

https://imgur.com/6UznnA0

That fixed it.

https://imgur.com/RGvp71Y

After a chat with a skeleton that wasn't trying to kill us, we moved along to the druid grove gates. Here's the opening initiative and scene:

https://imgur.com/LsUnUob

First order of the day is to clear our ledge; Ka decided that the best way to kill a goblin is with another goblin.

https://imgur.com/bDDwTgj

Double kill; guess she was right.

https://imgur.com/nTcUVrs

When Gale's turn comes around next, he winds up with a heavy iron cauldron he picked up in the ruins, and critically splatters the shaman at the back.

https://imgur.com/t9Sk3dm
https://imgur.com/aHyaw0Y

While the Zhents are ineffectively flailing weapons around and, most importantly, forgetting to let go of them, Lae'zel and Shadow throw boxes and crates at Za'krug, taking care of him soundly, then its back to Ka for the beginning of round 2.

https://imgur.com/utJc44O
https://imgur.com/5qUZoth

She throws some armour at the bugbear, and after they take a few ineffective swings (Wyll was useless, and I think the bugbear wore down someone's rally hp, while the allies that got hurt before healed), Gale tries for a trick shot – He hurls a suit of armour at the goblin just behind the bugbear, hitting it, but also doing impact damage to the bugbear as well as the object ploughs through him.

https://imgur.com/4lvDxkL
https://imgur.com/jQp1g23

Lae'zel and Shadowheart manage to finish off the bugbear and a goblin with expertly thrown barrels, and the allies manage between themselves, to kill one goblin.

https://imgur.com/36nLk57

Round 3 begins, but Ka throws her gith Armour at the one remaining warg; it dies.

https://imgur.com/qvayi5z
https://imgur.com/7UkD38y

The was the fastest, most efficient and most effective clearing of the grove gate that I've done, I believe – everyone survived, the enemies died quickly, and it took only two combat rounds, with one throw left over.

Also, we level up! It's at this point that I noticed that Ka's name had a typo in it, and she's got an extra 'k'. That's going to bug me for the rest of the playthrough. The level up UI tells me that I've gone from level 2 githynaki to level 3 githyanki... but it doesn't see fit to tell me why it feels the need to tell me this.

https://imgur.com/iAUhgWA

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Niara Offline OP
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In the grove, we find Zorru, and after some menacing words, he tells us where he saw more of our kind! Shadowheart tells me (again) that I should get rid of the gith. I'd like to ask her 'which one' but I can't. Oh well. Next stop, Gith Patrol!

https://imgur.com/BpnaZV5

On the way there, we come across an encounter with bloated hyenas. Shadowheart throws her armour at one, killing it, while Ka throws a dead gnoll at another... inaccurately. Oh well. She shoves another one closer to the pile in order to salvage the turn.

https://imgur.com/LjExj5S
https://imgur.com/I0WEokj

https://imgur.com/Qvi6BWi
https://imgur.com/5zAECCE

The hyenas aren't doing much, so we pelt them with more dead bodies. My luck runs a bit poorly and I have to throw quite a few things at them before they die... not so many misses than any of them hatched, but a few all the same. Gale kills one with his cauldron during the skirmish; he's growing quite fond of it.

https://imgur.com/Qgo6Ovu
https://imgur.com/qmDrcFQ

While searching, I find a barrel of fire-wine, but the group of gnolls up the hill saw us as well. Ambushed... sorta... Here's the initial initiative roll and situation:

https://imgur.com/c8JPAJp

Gale throws the fire wine, but lack of an open flame meant it didn't explode yet, and just soaked everything in booze. The Gnoll didn't like this, and one of them ran down the hill to bite Gale; it stung a bit. Ka wasn't having a bar of this, so threw the gnoll back up the hill into its brethren, half-killing one with the throw, but missing her target and failing to cause any other damage.

https://imgur.com/JQXWb3Z

The other gnolls attack and curse Gale, before shadow throws a candle to ignite the wine. It doesn't really go as she hoped; no boom, just a sizzle that sets some of them burning lightly. Lae'zel throws a dead hyena, but also misses.

https://imgur.com/0xd0Kk3
https://imgur.com/90Eu2IZ

Gale start round two by throwing his trusty cauldron at another hunter, for moderate damage, before another gnoll rushes down the hill to slash and bite at him; he nearly goes down before Ka throws the gnoll back up the hill and away from us.

https://imgur.com/U04wSYq

This time she's much more effective, and notches up another double kill.

https://imgur.com/VghaiTB

The two remaining gnolls respond by a) rushing down the hill again to bite gale, and b) running out to a ledge to shoot at Ka; Gale went down, but Ka was fine. Gale being down, this is the first case of a downed character so far – I deigned to have Shadowheart use her auto-raise help action to get him up again.

https://imgur.com/oIStfbL

After that, Lae'zel jumped up to stand next to the Hunter, and threw him at the Fang.

https://imgur.com/I2qkyYM

Only one of them survived this action, and Ka promptly threw him into a barrel, killing him, at the top of round 3.

https://imgur.com/jc7pNsm
https://imgur.com/yPTV5uI

Once again, this was a very straight forward, and brutally effective clearing of what is usually considered a difficult encounter by some – it took two combat rounds, plus one extra action, and that was with several misses. It was also pretty dull. I made a number of 'mistakes' here – expecting things to explode when they didn't and such, but the strength of the guaranteed mechanics I was abusing let me walk over the encounter despite the wasted actions.

Moving on, we arrived at the location of the Gith Patrol, and crept up to see them interrogating some mercenaries. The lady on the bridge didn't like being told that we were gith and our gith business was our own. She pulled on us, and we shoved her off the bridge into the middle of the patrol.

https://imgur.com/cZdrX8I

For some reason, that actually started the encounter, even though none of us were close. I accidentally talked my way through it and didn't get into a fight, before I remembered that I'm actually supposed to be here to fight them... so here I reloaded my game and approached the patrol directly head on and at ground level, then told them that they were all bad gith, and that they needed to learn the ways of throw and shove better. They took offence. Here's the opening initiative and positioning:

https://imgur.com/Xur4Ahw

This looks rough with us being level 3 still, so I decided to open with a bang and threw a nautiloid tank at the group with Lae'zel.

https://imgur.com/3bCcGVV

And forgot that it doesn't explode on its own, again. I'm bad at that. It's okay, Gale had me covered and tossed a candle into the mix.

https://imgur.com/fQYC0R0

Ah, nope... that didn't help either! That just made their toes toasty. Ka shook her head and told them that she'd show them how to cast throw properly. She threw another nautiloid tank onto the already burning fires.

https://imgur.com/wrEiyM1

That's better. She rushed up and shoved one of them further into the fire to finish her turn.

https://imgur.com/BXPUTiE

The gith took their turn next: One used misty step to warp to the first landing, just off screen above Shadowheart, and then cast sleep on Ka. One healed himself and cast hunter's mark on Ka. I'm not sure what the third one did; whatever it was, it didn't seem to have any effect. I *Think* he threw a poison bottle at Ka, but could be wrong – either way, no effect.

https://imgur.com/gDWJ10X

On shadow's turn, I had her skip over and wake Ka up, before the boss got her turn.

https://imgur.com/8OJpwNs

The boss downed Ka and injured Shadow with her attacks, ouch.

Round 2 begins, and Gale climbs the ladder, but fails to shove the gish off the ledge. He attempts to brain him with his trusty cauldron from close range, then, but this also fails. Exasperated, Lae'zel grabs the boss and throws her up at the gish.

https://imgur.com/2lTE4a1

She misses too... The gish dodges his incoming commander and she slams into the ground instead, dropping and falling prone for nearly lethal damage. So close. With Ka down, it's now the gith patrol's turn: The shooter heals himself again and repositions, taking a shot at Shadowheart – it stings a bit. The sneaky one throws another bottle of poison at Shadow (it might be the first if they did something else before), and she's looking pretty hurt now. The gish casts silence on the area. Shadowheart takes her turn to help Ka back to consciousness, and then tries, but fails, to shove the raider off his rock.

https://imgur.com/2lTE4a1

The boss gets to her feet, still burning a little, heals herself then rushes Lae'zel, hurting her badly, but not badly enough. Round three starts, and Ka answers the boss's silly sword action with another throw – she's determined to knock this gish off his ledge, and the commander goes flying again.

https://imgur.com/cLAAcQL

Again, the gish dodges, but the boss still falls and dies – thank you guaranteed damage.

https://imgur.com/DeaEf9A

Ka shoves the the stealthy raider into the fire, but Lae'zel has a better idea, and throws the same raider up at that annoying gish.

https://imgur.com/TA3dPTg

He dodges, again, but his next team mate suffers a guaranteed death from the throw and the landing regardless.

https://imgur.com/a243dEc

Gale tries again, in vain, to shove the gish off his ledge, and then picks up his cauldron in a huff, and climbs the ladder. This risks an opportunity attack, which hits him for a bit of a sting, but he weathers it.

https://imgur.com/zwztyTV

From this point, he decides to throw something a bit heavier, and aims a set of ring mail down at the far off raider – that armour has a long, long way to travel, and he crits it. It's a mess. Edit to add: If I were shooting a bow at this enemy, from here, I'd be at disadvantage from the range. Not so with throwing things by hand, it seems.

https://imgur.com/3pqfeuy
https://imgur.com/D1v8T5t

This one annoying gish still endures, and he decides to cast sleep on Ka again. Shadow throws something heavy his way, but still can't hit him; Lae'zel throws a body at him, but still can't connect. At last, at the top of round three, Gale caves his skull in with his cauldron from the floor above. Finally.

https://imgur.com/OqgLUJs
https://imgur.com/q9FPddB
https://imgur.com/yoApL67

The patrol has been defeated: this took two combat rounds, plus a mostly non-event third round and some clean up actions. It was brutal and effective, and a safer, more reliable clear than I think I've ever done, which is quite upsetting, really. Most of what killed the enemy team was guaranteed damage that I couldn't fail to deal, using actions that themselves couldn't fail. The things left to chance failed often here, and I still more or less breezed through this encounter. Four characters, level 3, no class abilities, no spells, no skills, no armour, no weapons... just Larian's homebrew, and it was game-breakingly brutal. This is a problem.

I'm going to continue this run, since others asked to see some of the later encounters – I'm going to go to Ethel, probably, and I'll do some of the underdark encounters as well; minotaurs, bulette, duergar and the construct in the tower, if I can keep it up long enough to do them all.

The trouble I have with this is that I can illustrate this issue, but we've already seen Sven and Larian's public-facing philosophy. They'll look at this and go “Isn't that funny and cool and fun! There's no problem here, it's great!”

It's not fun, it's not particularly funny after the first time, and it's not cool; it destroys any concept of game immersion, it breaks from the tone of the story in an aberrant way, creating a jarring juxtaposition of different conflicting elements of the game, and even within itself, it drowns out all of the other game systems that exist, rendering all player choices meaningless and obsolete in the face of the general universal abilities that overbear them. Resource-costing class spells, abilities and features are obliterated and pointless when a resource-free universal option is available to everyone that is faster, stronger, safer and more effective than any of them. In fights, there's no real need for tactics or careful decision making – the general strategy remains constant and works with brutal efficacy, almost regardless of the situation.

So, while this isn't one of my 'focused feedback' threads, and is simply a demonstrative examination... if anyone has any ideas how to explain to Larian that this is genuinely bad for the game in a way that they might actually take on board, I'm all ears.

Last edited by Niara; 30/06/21 03:37 AM.
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Originally Posted by Niara
Imagine telling your opponent to "come closer" when you're being stuck on the ceiling, lmao.

Originally Posted by Niara
Ah, yes. The fire rises. (that is fire, isn't it?)

Well this was entertaining.


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Thanks Niara, that's quite an effort. And yeah... we needed something like this.

Hilarious commentary, thoroughly enjoyed laugh

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Well done. Funny and point well made. This is why fixing throw mechanics is top of my list. Why bother creating any abilities while these are in game?


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If I had the willpower for it, I would go and record demonstrations of this stuff like I’ve done for literally everything else but this game.

Although I am generally unfamiliar with using throw mechanics because I don’t use Lae’zel and my favored MC is a dex bard. But it seems like you don’t really need that much strength to abuse this either.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 30/06/21 03:19 AM.
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Niara Offline OP
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Is it bad that what I really want out of this is to see sexy fan art of Gale in his leather underwear fighting gnolls with an iron cauldron?

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Originally Posted by Niara
Is it bad that what I really want out of this is to see sexy fan art of Gale in his leather underwear fighting gnolls with an iron cauldron?

Not bad at all.

That said, this really illustrates the issue here, the homebrew has made every other mechanic irrelevant and actually hinders the fun of the game. One could argue "Just don't use it" but I feel that completely misses the point of having a balanced system and a fair challenge.

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A great and well written post, as usual.

But I have to admit that throwing doesn't bother me at all. It's part of these silly things I'll never use and, more important, that does not have any consequences when I'm playing.

It's one of those silly things that rewards the player way too much, to the point that it is litteraly ridiculous. The mechanic itself doesn't make any sense... So is the reward.

I try to avoid things that makes no sense and I'm not punished if I don't throw, exactly like I'm not if I don't use barrelmancy, if I don't steal every merchants, if I don't exploit flaming sphere and so on. The game's difficulty remains "normal". Choices for fun, even if I personnaly don't find it fun at all...

Shove is something else. Push creatures in whole totally make sense. It's a great feature in a world designed with such a verticality.
But shoving is way too OP. Shove is broken to the point that it finally does not make sense anymore.

Just like Dipping, shove is a mechanic I'd love to be able to choose without cheesing the game.
Just like dipping, shove needs consistent rules to be well integrated in a DnD game.

Ofc it would be better if everything was balanced and well integrated... But unfortunately I think it's set in stone that Larian is going to adapt DnD and the FR to their style rather than adapting their style to DnD and the FR.....

Last edited by Maximuuus; 30/06/21 08:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by Niara
Shadowheart tells me (again) that I should get rid of the gith. I'd like to ask her 'which one' but I can't. Oh well.
Loved this bit.


Romances in RPGs brought us to this
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Most amazing thing I've read all week! Hahaha - way to go, Niara!


Hoot hoot, stranger! Fairly new to CRPGs, but I tried my best to provide some feedback regardless! <3 Read it here: My Open Letter to Larian
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That's a pretty devastating demonstration. I suspect though that Larian will shrug and say "people don't NEED to do it so we're leaving it alone."

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
A great and well written post, as usual.

But I have to admit that throwing doesn't bother me at all. It's part of these silly things I'll never use and, more important, that does not have any consequences when I'm playing.

It's one of those silly things that rewards the player way too much, to the point that it is litteraly ridiculous. The mechanic itself doesn't make any sense... So is the reward.

I try to avoid things that makes no sense and I'm not punished if I don't throw, exactly like I'm not if I don't use barrelmancy, if I don't steal every merchants, if I don't exploit flaming sphere and so on. The game's difficulty remains "normal". Choices for fun, even if I personnaly don't find it fun at all...

Its more of a problem in multiplayer. I don't like having to have the same conversations with other players about not abusing dumb mechanics like this.

Granted - its kind of a litmus test for me about who makes it into my friends list and who doesn't. I don't put trash players on there. But Larian is creating a problem for groups who would like to stick to people using more legitimate tactics instead of having a single player ruin the fun with this sort of thing.

They always think they are clever too, like we should pat them on the back for being terrible.

Additionally this will create problems for DM's down the line who don't want to see this nonsense.

Granted somebody will fix it with a mod but it would be really unfortunate if they don't see the problem and get rid of it before somebody else has to fix it.

Larian has moved into a larger world, and I want to encourage them to put stuff like this behind them. It doesn't serve anymore.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 30/06/21 02:13 PM.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
A great and well written post, as usual.

But I have to admit that throwing doesn't bother me at all. It's part of these silly things I'll never use and, more important, that does not have any consequences when I'm playing.

It's one of those silly things that rewards the player way too much, to the point that it is litteraly ridiculous. The mechanic itself doesn't make any sense... So is the reward.

I try to avoid things that makes no sense and I'm not punished if I don't throw, exactly like I'm not if I don't use barrelmancy, if I don't steal every merchants, if I don't exploit flaming sphere and so on. The game's difficulty remains "normal". Choices for fun, even if I personnaly don't find it fun at all...

Its more of a problem in multiplayer. I don't like having to have the same conversations with other players about not abusing dumb mechanics like this.

Granted - its kind of a litmus test for me about who makes it into my friends list and who doesn't. I don't put trash players on there. But Larian is creating a problem for groups who would like to stick to people using more legitimate tactics instead of having a single player ruin the fun with this sort of thing.

They always think they are clever too, like we should pat them on the back for being terrible.

Additionally this will create problems for DM's down the line who don't want to see this nonsense.

Granted somebody will fix it with a mod but it would be really unfortunate if they don't see the problem and get rid of it before somebody else has to fix it.

Larian has moved into a larger world, and I want to encourage them to put stuff like this behind them. It doesn't serve anymore.
But mods are also a hassle in multiplayer when you need to organize everyone to download the same stuff. Or how does it even work with mods that change rules?

Anyway, I really don't want to have to mod a 5e game to play like 5e, or just play well in general without silly OP exploits.

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Hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Niara
So, while this isn't one of my 'focused feedback' threads, and is simply a demonstrative examination... if anyone has any ideas how to explain to Larian that this is genuinely bad for the game in a way that they might actually take on board, I'm all ears.

I think you just did a very good job at explaining. I can not imagine how the game´s now brilliantly exposed weaknesses can not at least be tweaked a bit.

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Just commenting to push the thread!

Thanks for giving me the funny!

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Great effort Niara, thank you for that.

It was hilarious too but I couldn't even laugh because the gameplay is so embarrassingly bad and I want to play this game for a long time.

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That was epic! Still laughing.

Hmmm…the scientist part of my brain wonders tho…I keep seeing folks talk about “choosing” how to play…and I wonder how legit that argument really is.

A truly fair approach, to test how broken the mechanics are, would be to now play thru the same sequence by NOT using any of the homebrew and playing it as close to DnD 5e as you possibly can. I don’t know how possible that is..,but I would love to know if (on the flip-side) whether or not the mere presence of these mechanics destroy the dnd part.

Perhaps alot of work to try…but I wonder if anyone has done that?

Last edited by timebean; 01/07/21 04:07 AM.
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