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OK, so to reframe what I said in my opening post, these are the changes I'd like to see to the Camping Mechanic, going forward:
1) Unless you make a point of traveling to your full campsite, all Long-rests should be in the Mini-camp format.
2) Unless you're at your full campsite-you should only get access to the characters currently in your party. The only exception being if one of your other followers has some narratively vital dialogue to share with the player.
3) The scarcity of supplies & cost of Long-rests definitely needs to be seriously re-jigged. The cost of long-rests, as you increase levels, should definitely increase at a much higher rate, and the Supply Value of various items should probably be significantly reduced-& perhaps the gold cost of supplies purchased from Merchants. Perhaps the ability to consume food to regain small amounts of hit-points could also return, to force players to balance the need for long rests versus an immediate hit-point boost.
4) Mini-camps should hold at least some risk of being interrupted by "location appropriate" random encounters....again to further reduce any temptation to spam the long-resting system.
5) I concur with those who are saying that we require a proper Day/Night cycle where time advances-with short, partial and full rests obviously advancing the clock more rapidly. I don't know about anyone else here, but it would be cool to explore some of these outdoor locations at Night.
6) I also agree that we should get a more "permanent" base of operations, but not until Act 2.
7) Lastly, I do still hold that it would be nice to have some additional Optional Difficulty Settings-like a Fatigue system that forces you to take some kind of rest every X in-game hours, or suffer penalties, and/or a minimum supply requirement for even taking a partial rest. As I said, though, this would be Optional settings for the truly hard-core players, not part of the core rules.
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Basically I find the D&D camping system as it is implemented in the game cumbersome and it is sending mixed signals.
The main story calls for urgency and fast progress, however, this is not really the case, as you can not lose the game that way. Instead the story and especially the character interactions are brought forward through camping. So the story tells you to press onward, while you miss heaps of content if you do not rest a lot.
The gameplay focuses around resource management within and between fights, so you need to rest often to call upon your full potential. Now they are implementing a resource system for camping, which adds just another resource to manage. So either resources are scarce and you can not unleash your full potential all the time and will miss crucial story elements, or resources come in abundance and the mechanic is not needed at all.
Further, the camping itself is a time-consuming mechanic as it ties story and companion interactions into it, along with voiced dialogue, cutscenes and stuff to do, add and see while at camp. Be it Owlbear, Skelly, Dog etc.. So you might just want to rest up for important combat to find yourself tied into a 15 minute voiced monologue that is important.
I am a simple man and like efficiency. I like how PoE and BG2 do it. In the former you basically have all your skills ready for every combat and camping is necessitated through exhaustion, while in the latter it is a click and an interruptable cutscene. In both games story and companion interactions might be triggered by it, but nothing more.
I am not against a central hub either, but I prefer a set location for this, like the stronghold of both games I mentioned earlier. I also like companion interactions to take place in the game world being triggered by something instead through camping sequences, Mass Effect does that as well and while straightforward it is cumbersome. What I definitely do not like is being locked out of content because my pace is too fast, or too slow.
Also, I would like to point out that if they go the Divinity route, where companions are removed from the game after a certain event, the mechanic loses it's raison d'être, since you will have all your companions with you. So it is the skelly and the pets that is left at camp. Although I concede that we might get a home of sorts further down the road.
So I question the mechanix as a whole not how it is handled. More locations is better, roleplay additions are fine as well, but this is all not needed with the system of the predecessor, which is BG2. Yet you learn, relatively early on, that there is something very different about your tadpole-& that getting it removed may not be quite as urgent as you first thought....unless you make a point of abusing your Ilithid powers. So I have no issue with a camping system given those facts.
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New camping system is much better. Old one wasn't even a system it was just pressing a button to reset abilities and HP.
I just don't understand why the camps need to be completely separate disconnected areas. There are campfires and an abundance of suitable locations like camps and houses already scattered all over the game world. Why can't they use these? Why do we need to teleport to some weird unreachable location that looks somewhat similar to where we were? It's still weird when it could be much more simple and straightforward.
Also inactive companions and skeleton vendors showing up in a crypt camp and then disappearing again after rest makes no sense whatsoever.
I would have definitely used actual locations in the game world and set up a fast travel system using the camps as waypoints (instead of the unnecessary magical teleportation system that also doesn't make sense in the context of Forgotten Realms).
Locations like:
Ruined temple main hall with campfire/fireplace.
Camp at the druid grove above the entrance or further inside with the Tieflings.
Abandoned Harper camp on the hill.
Empty house with a campfire/fireplace in Blighted village.
Abandoned beach camp at the Sunlit Wetlands.
+ add a makeshift beach camp near the starting location
etc. etc. possible locations are really frequent. This would be immersive and also make sense without adding any complications of why someone is in the wrong place or why you teleport to a weird mirror dimension location.
Last edited by 1varangian; 24/07/21 01:59 PM.
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New camping system is much better. Old one wasn't even a system it was just pressing a button to reset abilities and HP.
I just don't understand why the camps need to be completely separate disconnected areas. There are campfires and an abundance of suitable locations like camps and houses already scattered all over the game world. Why can't they use these? Why do we need to teleport to some weird unreachable location that looks somewhat similar to where we were? It's still weird when it could be much more simple and straightforward.
Also inactive companions and skeleton vendors showing up in a crypt camp and then disappearing again after rest makes no sense whatsoever.
I would have definitely used actual locations in the game world and set up a fast travel system using the camps as waypoints (instead of the unnecessary magical teleportation system that also doesn't make sense in the context of Forgotten Realms).
Locations like:
Ruined temple main hall with campfire/fireplace.
Camp at the druid grove above the entrance or further inside with the Tieflings.
Abandoned Harper camp on the hill.
Empty house with a campfire/fireplace in Blighted village.
Abandoned beach camp at the Sunlit Wetlands.
+ add a makeshift beach camp near the starting location
etc. etc. possible locations are really frequent. This would be immersive and also make sense without adding any complications of why someone is in the wrong place or why you teleport to a weird mirror dimension location. To be fair, the mini-camps don't feel like "teleporting" to me, as they do match the overall aesthetic of the environment you were in at the time.....but I have noticed a large number of campfire sites dotted across the map, and I agree that you should be able to click on these in order to "camp in place". Either way, though, I think that going to your *Main* camp-the one where you extra allies reside when not in use-should be a conscious decision, only accessible by physical travel or via the Waypoint system.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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Honestly, allowing us to travel to a main camp when physically possible shouldn't be bad I think, would set up mechanics for a proper home base. While like in places like the underdark I think it should be not possible to warp to it.
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To be fair, the mini-camps don't feel like "teleporting" to me, as they do match the overall aesthetic of the environment you were in at the time.....but I have noticed a large number of campfire sites dotted across the map, and I agree that you should be able to click on these in order to "camp in place". It's an improvement for sure. I'm just worried it will be a crazy amount of work for Larian to include enough of these camp locations and still the system can never be perfect. All caves transport you to the same cave camp. What if you're in another cave, why is your new camp identical to the previous one? Is the party really dragging the mega chest with all their camp inventory with them anywhere they go? It's a little bit too convenient and safe and takes away from the feeling that you're somewhere far away and dangerous. It's like you can always go home to eat from a stocked fridge and sleep where no one can get to you. Talkative skeleton and inactive companions (and pets and Volo and everyone?) always turn up at camp wherever you are and disappear somewhere in the morning? If they are traveling everywhere with you, why isn't everyone in the party? It's especially harmful for a character like Lae'zel who would never miss the action if they are there. Why does the party leave the safety of the Druid Grove to sleep in the Wilderness? Which camp do you use when you're in the Goblin fort but a safer empty underground temple area is just downstairs? Or if you're in the Blighted Village but a cleared cave is just down the well, why do you travel back to your Wilderness camp that's supposed to be miles away? My point is that this system will always have faults and make odd choices for you. If the game would use the campsites on the actual map none of these questions would matter. The system would be fool proof concerning where your camp is and who and what is there. And it would turn immersion to max because you're literally there.
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To be fair, the mini-camps don't feel like "teleporting" to me, as they do match the overall aesthetic of the environment you were in at the time.....but I have noticed a large number of campfire sites dotted across the map, and I agree that you should be able to click on these in order to "camp in place". It's an improvement for sure. I'm just worried it will be a crazy amount of work for Larian to include enough of these camp locations and still the system can never be perfect. All caves transport you to the same cave camp. What if you're in another cave, why is your new camp identical to the previous one? Is the party really dragging the mega chest with all their camp inventory with them anywhere they go? It's a little bit too convenient and safe and takes away from the feeling that you're somewhere far away and dangerous. It's like you can always go home to eat from a stocked fridge and sleep where no one can get to you. Talkative skeleton and inactive companions (and pets and Volo and everyone?) always turn up at camp wherever you are and disappear somewhere in the morning? If they are traveling everywhere with you, why isn't everyone in the party? It's especially harmful for a character like Lae'zel who would never miss the action if they are there. Why does the party leave the safety of the Druid Grove to sleep in the Wilderness? Which camp do you use when you're in the Goblin fort but a safer empty underground temple area is just downstairs? Or if you're in the Blighted Village but a cleared cave is just down the well, why do you travel back to your Wilderness camp that's supposed to be miles away? My point is that this system will always have faults and make odd choices for you. If the game would use the campsites on the actual map none of these questions would matter. The system would be fool proof concerning where your camp is and who and what is there. And it would turn immersion to max because you're literally there. As I said above, Mini-camps should only contain 2 things-the people currently in your party, and anyone else from your main camp who has some vital piece of dialogue to offer at that point in the narrative. The skeleton, your pets, your chest, your camp followers......you would only ever find them at your main camp. Funnily enough, Solasta has those campsite locations that allow for Long-rests, so there is actually some precedent for your suggestion. It will be interesting to see how camping evolves over the next 6-8 months or so.
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Honestly, allowing us to travel to a main camp when physically possible shouldn't be bad I think, would set up mechanics for a proper home base. While like in places like the underdark I think it should be not possible to warp to it. Warping to the main camp should be possible *if*-& only if-you're near a Waypoint. Otherwise it should be a physical location you travel to on the map, and obviously that location may need to change as we get into acts 2 & 3. Any other time you camp, it should use the mini-camp mechanic, maybe with a few little aesthetic differences to the locations to get around 1varangian's concerns....or just go with 1varangian's suggestion & use the mechanic that Solasta uses to such great effect. Either way, though, I am still of the view that Long-rests should have some risk of interruption, maybe with some kind of precautions you can take beforehand to minimize said risk (like camouflaging your camp-which would require an appropriate roll to achieve....which I admit I borrowed from the Pathfinder game  ).
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Again I feel the need to re-iterate the need to re-balance Camp Supplies. I genuinely feel the cost of Long-resting needs to be increased, most especially at levels 3 & 4. I also feel the value of food & drink items probably needs to be slightly reduced, and some items should produce either a reduced value, or no value at all, unless paired with something else. Garlic, vegetables and alcohol all fall into this category.
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Warping to the main camp should be possible *if*-& only if-you're near a Waypoint. Disagree with this! I like having the option to fast travel when I want. Anyone who likes walking still has the option to walk to waypoints.
Last edited by Icelyn; 25/07/21 11:46 AM.
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stranger
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Warping to the main camp should be possible *if*-& only if-you're near a Waypoint. Disagree with this! I like having the option to fast travel when I want. Anyone who likes walking still has the option to walk to waypoints. I very much agree with this comment (disagreeing with the removal of fast travel!) I found the whole story aspect so compelling that I have hardly rested at all in camp – maybe once, after the celebration of rescuing Halsin. There are two reasons for this: a) An illithid tadpole is eating my PC's brain – I still have no idea if resting actually matters or not, but it's heavily implied that it does. Without looking up spoilers on this board, I suspect that using your illithid abilities increases the rate at which "bad dreams" happen -- I have only had one b) One of my characters had a massively bugged (?) potion of firebreath that gave him firebreath as two bonus actions every round until he rested. Every. Single. Round. I'm in the underdark, but frankly I've decided to stop playing until the full release version is out, so as to minimise spoilers for myself and maxmise the probability that I get to finish...
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Again I feel the need to re-iterate the need to re-balance Camp Supplies. I genuinely feel the cost of Long-resting needs to be increased, most especially at levels 3 & 4. I thought in announcement video Sven said that cost will increase with levels (and more resources to replenish). I haven't seen it happening ingame, perhaps it is not yet implemented? If Larian considers tightening up resources at our disposal as the game goes on, making it easy to feed early on is a good design - allowe players to mess around a bit in act1 before they get the feel for the game and systems.
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I like that camping has changed, but I don't think it goes far enough. Food is way too plentiful and you can 'teleport' it to camp, so there's not even a weight penalty for picking up every food item you come across. You just send everything to camp.
I also think that you should have to walk to a teleport waypoint to actually teleport - that makes sense given that those gates are supposedly how you teleport. I think it is highly dodgy that you can bypass all the danger in an area (like the Underdark) by opening the map and just teleporting to safety. Initially I didn't realise you could use the map to teleport, so I had to sneak out of the goblin camp (which was on alert) and then fight to external gate, with an exchausted/battered party (I didn't elect to sleep), to then teleport from the courtyard gate. That was exciting, if a bit tense.
They could also do what Solasta does, and allow fast-forward on-map travel to a labelled map point. They could then interrupt that journey if you ran into an encounter (hehe!). At the moment, the insta-teleport along with sleeping being too easy really diminish (for me at least) the sense of danger (and accomplishment when you manage to do it). Also don't like being able to teleport things back to camp...erm..how? At least have some magic item that allows that (like the DOS pyramids that allowed party members to teleport to each other - that was cool and tactically interesting and *made sense* in the DOS setting). The send to camp button is simply a convenience that removes a whole tactical dimension: what can I carry? What do I have to give up? Can I carry enough food? Choices and consequences.
What I would really like is a 'core D&D' setting which disables all the non-D&D exploits and allows for something more akin to the core rules setting from BG1/2. Then those who want to play with barrels, excessive consumbales, instant teleport etc could do that, and those who want something closer to an actual 5E campaign could have that too. Solasta has tons of toggles to turn options on/off (like somatic casting requriement - which I don't like...clerics with mace+shield are a staple, not sure why 5E introduced that!) - that level of customization would be great.
Last edited by booboo; 27/07/21 01:47 PM.
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I also think that you should have to walk to a teleport waypoint to actually teleport - that makes sense given that those gates are supposedly how you teleport. I think it is highly dodgy that you can bypass all the danger in an area (like the Underdark) by opening the map and just teleporting to safety. Initially I didn't realise you could use the map to teleport, so I had to sneak out of the goblin camp (which was on alert) and then fight to external gate, with an exchausted/battered party (I didn't elect to sleep), to then teleport from the courtyard gate. That was exciting, if a bit tense.
They could also [...] allow fast-forward on-map travel to a labelled map point. They could then interrupt that journey if you ran into an encounter (hehe!). At the moment, the insta-teleport along with sleeping being too easy really diminish (for me at least) the sense of danger (and accomplishment when you manage to do it). I'm a fan of this latter option. Allow fast-travel to waypoints, but in the background the game should calculate the path taken and figure out if there's an encounter. It would be a good mix of the convenience of waypoint travel but with the realism/danger of not being able to just teleport out of dangerous situations. Obviously this should also require a valid path to an already-found waypoint. E.g., if you fall down to the underdark, you can't teleport away because you haven't found any of the underdark waypoints yet and presumably the door entrance is still locked. (also, any path in this case would almost certainly lead to an encounter/trap)
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Warping to the main camp should be possible *if*-& only if-you're near a Waypoint. Disagree with this! I like having the option to fast travel when I want. Anyone who likes walking still has the option to walk to waypoints. My issue with this is that, if you can so easily make it to your main camp.....then why even bother with having a Mini-camp? Perhaps if your Main camp had a significantly higher Supply Cost, and/or if there were more locations from which you could not fast travel to your main camp, then that would be sufficient to alleviate my concerns.
Last edited by MarcHicks; 28/07/21 10:10 AM.
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Again I feel the need to re-iterate the need to re-balance Camp Supplies. I genuinely feel the cost of Long-resting needs to be increased, most especially at levels 3 & 4. I thought in announcement video Sven said that cost will increase with levels (and more resources to replenish). I haven't seen it happening ingame, perhaps it is not yet implemented? If Larian considers tightening up resources at our disposal as the game goes on, making it easy to feed early on is a good design - allowe players to mess around a bit in act1 before they get the feel for the game and systems. Well yes, all of my recommendations regarding the cost of camping *and* the value of food items is based on how the system *currently* works.....hopefully some re-balancing is in the works for patch 6. One thing to consider though is that, if high value camping supplies were much more rare and/or if certain supplies only had value when combined with other supply types (like alcohol requiring food, for example) then it might make spells like Goodberry & Create Food & Drink worth having. Another thought I had was this-what if you could get a Cooking Proficiency for your character-one which allowed you to combine several low value supplies into a Meal that had a greater value than the sum of its parts? Last of all, as I said above, a risk of a random encounter-however small-could also help to further balance out the use of the Long-rest system. It would also add greater value to characters with various Survival Proficiencies, as they may be able to use them to help camouflage the camp to make the chance of discovery even smaller.
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enthusiast
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My best guess why thers minicamps organized like the big camp but with other grafics is because of those Campevents. To have maybe enough resources left for code to be propper executed in a relativly clean NON-WHOLE-WORLD / Campaign area. So performance wise and reducing propabilities of bug or exploits in the normal Campaigning areas. F.e. you make camp near enemys, what if a cinematic event has to play out in camp and those enemys somehow become aware ofyour camp event and Fotocrash your event. Hillarious, funny and gamebreaking  So i do understand why the camps are not like in PATHFINDER : Kingmaker, where you just set it up on the Maparea you are currently are. Different Games need different solutions. Im ok with that.
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My issue with this is that, if you can so easily make it to your main camp.....then why even bother with having a Mini-camp? Perhaps if your Main camp had a significantly higher Supply Cost, and/or if there were more locations from which you could not fast travel to your main camp, then that would be sufficient to alleviate my concerns. My impression from reading the forum is that some like the minicamps because they like having the camp reflect where they are. I like going to the main camp because it has pets and followers. I don’t think it should have any extra restrictions or extra costs to go there.
Last edited by Icelyn; 28/07/21 12:15 PM.
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I will repeat even on my deathbed that contextual camps here and there in the existing game scenario (something that is already somewhat there, if completely unused) would be a far better solution than both these options.
And fuck the stupid idea of having a "main camp" growing in complexity over time, anyway, considering we are supposed to be on an ongoing travel toward Baldur's Gate, not out there making some camping vacation.
Are we going to camp on the river side even when we reach the city? I doubt it.
God, I hope not.
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addict
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And fuck the stupid idea of having a "main camp" growing in complexity over time, anyway, considering we are supposed to be on an ongoing travel toward Baldur's Gate, not out there making some camping vacation.
Are we going to camp on the river side even when we reach the city? I doubt it.
God, I hope not. Good point. Immersion should never have to suffer from the necessity of game mechanics. In this case, the obvious solution would be to let the main camp be a boat. It can hold all storage containers and followers, but it can only be moored at a few select locations along the river (i.e, travel from chapter map to chapter map, at places with a teleportal). Contextual camps where suddenly all followers, containers and non-partypeople appear would be fairly anti-immersion too, so that would be a poor solution. And for the record: being able to fast-travel from any location is very immersion-breaking too, in my book. I don´t know if it is still possible after the latest patch, but in my first playthtough I was stuck with an ill-chosen and ill-equipped party inside the temple with all the goblins. Getting out was nearly impossible. What a great challenge! Until I discovered I could just press the fast travel button...
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