Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Patch 5 combat encounter difficulty discussion

Hi all,

With the changes in patch 5 I am interested to hear other players perceptions of the game difficulty. I am interested in both "cheese" and also standard tactics. I am aware that many encounters can be "cheesed" and that certain things feel unbalanced but beyond this I am interested in how certain set piece fights feel without using anything which would be described as cheesy.

Personally I have noticed certain encounters feeling easier when playing in a "standard fashion" approaching encounters using regular tactics but also using a relatively min-maxed character.

For example I spent a little bit of time on the Commander Zhalk encounter today.

With a min/maxed Githyanki Tricker Cleric 17/14/12/9/14/8, along with Shadowheart and Lae'zel this fight is relativly straight forward if tedious. I know there are lots of ways to do it, but it is also do-able in a relatively straight forward manner: Lae'zel's Plate + Potion of Fire resistance + shield of faith (from shadowheart) + protection from good and evil gives 21AC + disadvantage to Zhalk. My cleric just sat in melee with him from when the Flayer died at c100HP to when he was killed, she was only hit twice, going down once. Meanwhile the others can just plink away from height with bow/crossbow (of course this does require height advantage which many do not like). We did overall something like 4HP damage per round (he has resistance) so at least 20 rounds - thats a lot of misses on his part. I was not fully optimized as the Cleric should have had Lae'zel's longsword for 1d8 rather than a mace for 1d6, and did not have the friendly little brain with us.

Zhalk has +2 (proficiency) +4 (strength) to hit so 21AC with disadvantage is very powerful, though this did of course require pretty specific pc with specific stats, and a degree of manipulation to stop the Cambions spawning in quickly. What was interesting is that this did not require the mindflayer to get any luck hits in, nor any barrels.

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I'm interested in hearing other's examples of different encounters and how the difficulty "feels" compared to patch 4, and in general. I am also interested in hearing different ways people have "broken" that Zhalk fight, though also any general stuff about difficulty.

Don't min/max or anything. Noticed one thing at the first battle at the Druid Grove. Not more difficult or anything but Aradin, the guy who confronts Zevlor, has died in the first round every time so far. Oh well

I have two more encounters to play out (Kua-toa, duegar). Overall the difficulty feels the same to me, but less reliant on cheese strats. (Except for the Githyanki patrol, and the Beholder is still a lot easier with a battlemaster handy).

Zhalk is way easier with Shadowheart involved. I usually alternate attacking Zhalk and the mindflayer so when one dies the other is one attack from KO. I've been successful in 3/3 attempts at the fight.

I didn't progress much (Ive reached the entry of the goblin camp and stopped playing for now) but so far I can't really say I've noticed any meaningful difference in difficulty.
I noticed that enemies occasionally do actions that they didn't use to do, but that's pretty much all the difference I could spot at this point.

My main character is a human str ranger with two handed sword. I have Astarion, Shadowheart, and Gale in my party.

Most of the battles in the game were pretty easy for me, and I usually really struggle with crpgs and tend to never play at harder than normal difficulty.

Some specifics -
Commander what's his name - I had my ranger Lae'zel Shadowheart and Us and with the help of the mind flyer I killed him before his goons even arrived. By the time they were starting to get close to my party I already activated the tentacle engine.

Druid grove Siege - I did the barrels that were already at the grove but nothing else cheese wise. I lost Zavlor but that was the biggest casualty. Everyone else survived no problem.

Windmill fight - this was the only place in the entire game I got a TPK. When I fought them for a second time I teleported Gale away as fast as possible and used bane. I killed their leader which stopped the fight (forgot about that) so I reloaded and tried again to kill everyone without killing him. It was still kind of a tough fight. I was level three at the time though.

Auntie Athel - her red cups killed Astarion really quick but my main ranger managed to tank them pretty efficiently while Shadowheart healed and used guiding bolt and gale also dealt decent damage.

The masked guys were kind of a pain because they had some strange ability to counterattack me whenever I attacked them and I still don't understand how. My ranger went down but after Shadowheart brought him back he actually slaughtered them all with great weapon master and the bonus attack it grants really fast. It was glorious.
I never fought Auntie Athel before because of bugs so I was really excited, but the fight was nothing special and I downed her very quickly. She tried her copies shit but one level two magic missile quickly removed the illusion.

I fought Dror Ragzlin as well, but I feel like this right is pretty much the same as before - not hard, just super long and tedious. One new aspect of it is enemies trying to push you into the pit.

Overall I don't know for sure whether the game is easier or not. The inability to jump around does limit your options, but I don't think it makes things harder. Usually it just means it'll take me more time to move around.

It's almost impossible for those of us who have played the same encounters over and over again to give an objective view on the difficulty. I guess if you didn't min-max at all and just tried to pretend you were a complete new player who didn't know anything about d&d, that might give a better idea of what the game is like to new players. I might have to try that lol. i can't imagine it would be pleasant.

Yes, you can't really go back to experiencing it as it would be like fresh, but you can have a comparative view on difficulty against your previous attempts at an encounter. Like for instance: Zhalk is easier now with shadowheart compared to patch 4, or the tutorial is easier because imps no longer have resistance compared to patch 4. I think we know that plenty of people in their first attempts find encounters in the game tough from the many posts about it on release of EA.

Personally, I'm mostly wondering if any of the changes have made things harder in general - for instance due overall lower to hit chances with the removal of the leapfrog game, and enemies using dash and more using shove (afaik this used to only be the Gnolls)

For EA and playing around with these things it is quite useful that "examine" allows looking at stats - though I would prefer the kingmaker style DC checks to access this info for a finial release

I find combat easier now and less frustrating. Basically, to make the tutorial easier, they dumbed down the imps, no longer making them resistant to most physical damage types. As a result, they are almost too easy. Same with Intellect Devourers. Now they are super easy to kill and not worthy of true Intellect Devourers and Imps. This is how the game is now throughout. Either it's almost too easy or insanely difficult... at least up to where I am admitedly.

My suggestion is to implement a system of difficulty that is more intuitive and intelligent. Use D&D standard Challenge Rating System and stats as a base. Then, instead of dumbing down enemies the system determines what levels your characters are at and your party size when you come to an encounter. So, a party of four adventurers can fight an enemy of CR equal to the party’s level without suffering any significant losses. So, in the Prologue, for example, when it is just the MC and Lae'zel, a single Imp has a CR of 1. That means that a party of 4 could handle a single imp without significant losses. You only have 2 at this time, so a group of 3 imps is WAY too tough for two Level 1 characters. However, if you are playing multiplayer, you may have a party of 5 by this point; 4 players and Lae'zel. So suddenly a single imp is not longer a huge deal. Still, a group of 3 imps would be a challenge even for a party of 5.

So my solution? The game recognizes party size and Level. It determines that there is only 1 MC and Lae'zel. Thus, two of the imps die before the player even initiates combat via an explosion. A single imp is a challenge to be sure against 2 members, so the game would even damage the only surviving imp so that he also has damage reduced by 50%. Now, a single imp against a party of 2 is not as big a threat especially for a tutorial. If you have Us with you, then you would have all 3 imps to fight, since Us is an Intellect Devourer and adds a considerably powerful ally to the group especially if Us was able to use his Body Thief ability and take over an imps body, like he should be able to do.

Now, moving on to the fight against the Intellect Devourers after you meet Shadowheart on the beach. Same thing could apply. Intellect Devourers are a CR 2. That means a full party of 4 adventurers could take on 1 Intellect Devourer without suffering significant losses. So, let's say it's just you and Shadowheart? Nope! 3 is too many. Instead of dumbing down the Intellect Devourers so they are weaklings like they have currently, Larian could again implement a reduction system. Not every enemy you fight is at full health. These things just crashed in a ship and suffered serious damage. Game determines it's just you and Shadowheart, so although you might fight 3 Intellect Devourers, the game reduces their HP by 75%. So, instead of 21 HP, should would maybe have 5 HP each. Keep in mind that they SHOULD have damage resistance also, so 5 HP is still a lot of HP per creature at this early a stage in the game. If my fighter only does 4 damage with my weapon, that only takes 2 off the Devourer. AND THERE'S 3 OF THEM who can suck your brain and take over your bodies!

Same scenario if you have multiplayer with 4 players. Add Shadowheart to the party (still fighting for at least a party of 6) and you have 5 party members to face the 3 Devourers. That's still a lose-lose fight because a party of 5 even at this point would have a tough time taking on 2 let alone 3. So, again, reduce their HP, but this time maybe by 50% instead of 75%. So now, you have 3 Devourers with 10 or 11 HP with Resistance battling against a party of 4 or 5 adventurers.

THIS is the only way to balance combat. You can't balance it by dumbing down stats or buffing them because you don't know how many Party Members you are realistically going to have and at what Levels because the game is too open world with too many potential scenarios playing out. I can go straight to the Gith fight at Level 2, for example, and get my butt handed to me because they buffed the Gith even MORE than before. Unless the game is able to intelligently determine what Challenge Rating you can handle and thus reduce enemies' HP and such accordingly to give you a fighting chance, this game is always going to have this issue of combat imbalance.

It was nice picking up Shadowheart in the Mind Flayer Funk Mobile. If you saw it flying at you... you are getting the funk out of the way.

Spiders nest (not sure the name) in the well... Characters at level 3 was an overwhelming experience. I will return.

Priestess Gut I slapped her to sleep pretty easy in her room. Before it was a lot harder. It was nice that if you are in a secluded place you do not draw attention of the whole complex like before.

Moon Puzzle still painful but its needed.

One Two or Three... the goblin children so annoying before with the evade tactic. This go I slapped them to sleep early.

The grease ... zip zap sloop slam I am seeing my feet in the air.... love it.

The traps in the secrete tunnel I almost think they should be hard to see until triggered... but I had a bow and I clicked over and over and over.

Sexy Love Ogre - she done slapped the hell out of one of my guys. (Nice ogre feeling ) Can't wait to unleash the Ogre Horn.

Volo owes me

I like the new dog skin.

Owl bear dorks do not YOLO in like before thanks for the change... They lived for the first time.

I talk a little in tongues but I am sure most know exactly what I am saying and where.

So much more to play ...just need more time. Underdark is next. or Gnolls not sure which one yet.

Thanks for sharing, i used it for my Ranger (even copied stats) today ...
And just my luck ... first hit and i lost concentration, second hit and i was dead.

But on second try it worked like a charm, still ... that first experience was quite unexpected.

On topic ...
Most fights seem quite easier compared to previous versions ...
Honestly, those 3 Cambions seem a little too much for poor level 1 characters. :-/
And Githyanki Patrol is BRUTAL on this patch ... still killable (kinda) but, its massacre.

Everything ese seemed quite allright.
But i cant talk about Auntie Ethel right now ... she buged and refused to do anything for me ... and i kinda screwed it too, when i decided to knock out mask-wearers, and wasted around 5 full rounds on that, instead just send there Level 2 Magic Missiles and finish them all off. -_-

I tried the Githyanki Patrol at level 3, un-twinked and had my ass absolutely handed to be by a combination of their better health and much better AI. This is good and cool and I will come back with all the good gear.

I am very slowly progressing through my Patch 5 playthrough, so haven't done most of the major fights.
However I got my ass handed to me by the... three Intellect Devourers on the beach, first when I was looking for Shadowheart (she was bugged and didn't appear) and then when I had her with me. LOL. It took me 4 tries to get past them. I was starting to doubt my own sanity!

But other fights so far have been good and manageable, and quite fun with the smarter AI.

I hit the gith patrol at level 3 too and had the same experience, I eventually cheesed it with a explosive barrel but still had it come down to 1v1 in the end.

If it had been BG:1 the resurrection costs alone would probably have ended my playthrough.

Fun!

I am playing with the Gnoll Boss at level 3 for the second time and imo it is definitely harder. I was hit for 27HP damage with a normal hit (not a crit) - 19 of which (4d10) was Psychic Damage. if anyone could shed any light on this it would be good.

The other thing, which I said before is that fighting in the cave is no longer the better option because the first thing any Gnoll will do is hit the Alchemists Fire and destroy the ladder meaning you are just at the bottom of a hill, i.e. at disadvantage.

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For the Gith, I will test again at level 4, but imo this was the hardest fight and it is much harder now.


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Here's my subjective notes on fights (Trickery cleric, Shadowheart, Lae'zel, Gale)(in the order I tried them)

level 1:
Prologue: easier
Commander Zhalk: easier

Level 2:
Beach intellect Devourers: same/easier
Dank Crypt fights: same
Druid Grove entrance: marginally easier (because of better ally AI?)

Level 3:
Minotaurs: Significantly easier
Paladins of Tyr: same (although with dash they will reposition much faster)
Newborn Gnolls: same
1st Gnoll Group: easier (not sure why but there is something different about this fight)
Gnoll Boss Group: Harder (inside cave)
Githyanki Patrol: Much harder (failed)

As an addendum to my original post, while some fights do seem easier others seem to have gone the other way. Much of this seems to be that you need to work harder to get advantage - I actually find myself using Invoke duplicity a lot.

A little update - I retried the Gnoll Boss Flind fight from the outside of the cave (on the hill) and it felt the same as patch 4 (at level 3)- even with some astonishingly bad rolls it was possible first time though it was quite a mess. This attempt did not get hit for catastrophic Psychic damage this time. I have never been able to reliably do the fight the noob way (i.e. just wandering up cluelessly) so did not bother trying.

This make me think that the main difficulty rise for this fight is the repeated loss of the inside ladder if you go in the back way due to fire interactions. Of course you can always tadpole the Flind but for some reason this has not been proc-ing for me? im not sure what the criteria are.

Windmill Goblins I did at level 4 so higher than usual but I think these things have have their HP reduced - Approaching unrested with 1/2 resources I ended up burning through most stuff to kill everything.

How do you guys feel about encounters designed to be tpk unless you already know what's coming and are actively setting up your party to take advantage of where you'll know enemies will be/know the mechanics of the game really well?

They work, if done right. In fact, "boss" fights tend to be like that. If you can just walk into a fight without knowing anything about it, and still manage to figure things out on the fly and win after one or a couple tries with whatever tools you have available at the moment you initially walked into it, then it's not that hard. And if the game has only fights like that, it's not fun. Not all bosses have to be like that, but at least the "elite bosses" should be able to wipe you out unless you prepare specifically for it. Such encounters are still fun as long as after knowing "oh so they can do that", you can come up with something to counter the enemies, and the satisfaction comes from having come up with your strategy and executing it right. You agree that it's a puzzle kind of fight, and the satisfaction comes from figuring out the key and solving the problem. Personally I find this exciting. Thinking about the fight, trying to come up with my own ways of solving it - a plan, then gathering the necessary tools (which may require you to go somewhere first to buy stuff before coming back later), then putting it all together, seeing if it actually works, adjusting the plan, until it finally works. It's the same process when trying to master anything.

BG/BG2 have plenty of fights like that. Pretty much all SCS lich fights, dragon fights, hidden boss fights. Sometimes end-of-chapter fights. Most if not all of the more challenging fights that involve mages. I play with mods, but it's probably about the same thing as a casual player playing vanilla.

But it's not fun if the game doesn't provide you with solid tools to reliably solve the problem. Enemy tricks that simply can't be countered in any way and all you can do is reloading until you get a bunch of good rolls.

To a certain extent I would say that any encounter your party blindly stumbles into is a good TPK chance. And one might expect that an average / casual player, esp. during their first playthrough, would generally follow this behavioural pattern. I certainly do

Sun Tzu teaches us thatWhat this statement means is that starting a fight without knowing your enemy (numbers, positions, abilities, intentions, etc.) is a recipe for disaster. Scouting in particular, and military intelligence in general is so invaluable that it's impossible to overrate it. No military commander sane enough to tell their arse from their elbow would send their troops into an unknown territory.

This moment actually buggers me quite a lot in certain games, as designers seem to be forcing you to go the "scouting by combat" way. XCOM is particularly egregious at this (esp. the first one, because in xcom 2 I use the Long War mod which gives Shinobi).

First time I reached the village, for example, I did not recognise the ambush (or didn't pay attention) and got steamrolled pretty quickly. And if you just sneak around, the combat is 2 turns at most, sometimes just one. And that's exactly how it should be.

Know thy enemy, and never start a fair fight.

I don't disagree. It's interesting the balancing act a video game developer has to go through compared to a table top game. With a good DM, you feel like you're in danger, but having your party actually die over and over again would very quickly destroy all enjoyment. Whereas in a video game, it's expected that you're going to die, part of the enjoyment is overcoming the challenge. It feels great when you can destroy a boss that you used to almost always die to once you learn the mechanics/game enough. I've started playing shmups recently and they're a genre of game where dying over and over again is just part of learning the game.

Note that if you are cornered at bottom of the hill ... there is a cliff, just behind you ... jump there and your disadvantage is gone ... run futher away, and you get advantage + gnolls loose at least one turn when they will dash to get to you.

In general it seems to me like AI is dashin unnnecesary often ... i mean in cases where ranged attack would make much more sence. :-/
Also NPC rangers almost every time used Hunter's Mark after the shot ... in my last Githyanki battle when there was last one, he even Hunter's Marked himself for some unknown reason.