This topic seems less and less about barrels and more and more about having the last word. The barrels are not going back to what they were, the only way to have them back will be to use mods. No amount of arguing will change that at this point and it would probably best to drop the matter.
The barrels are not going back to what they were, the only way to have them back will be to use mods.
Eh ... i cant help the feeling that you didnt actualy read that arguing ... As far as i know, nobody wants them "back" ... AKA as they were. O_o
I want them to remain as they are right now ... (+ add reaction when you drop it next to NPC) And other people want them just removed completely.
At the moment its more than safe to assume they will stay as they are. The community is way more satisfied with the way they are now than how they were before. Continuously trying to convince each party with points they will never accept by bringing up them up in a slightly different way does nothing more than add fuel to the fire. The arguments brought by each side had plentifully sound reasoning already and I truly don’t see what more any of you could try to say to validate them further. If you really want to keep going on and on, so be it. I said my piece and I stand by it.
For those who have not seen yet, this latest Hotfix appears to have put another knife in the 'Barrelmancy' problem.
We are still gathering information but now if you don't meet Strength requirements - which are very high - Barrels are not even targetable for pickup or moving.
Nautaloid Tanks appear to be completely untargetable.*
Smokepowder, Firewine, oil and water require 14 strength to move.
Also with the new Strength = Carry Weight limits we are much more constrained in how many can be carried.
We are gathering information still but would love to hear if anyone has figured out the new rules.
This is a welcome change. Very odd that its not in patch notes.
*But they still explode if you throw fire at them.
I just used my one str character to pick up and send barrels to camp. Then, sent a diff char to camp and opened the chest with the barrels in them and sent them back to the str chard so they could place them where needed.
I just used my one str character to pick up and send barrels to camp. Then, sent a diff char to camp and opened the chest with the barrels in them and sent them back to the str chard so they could place them where needed.
Yeah, I figured there is always going to be an exploit. However, it feels like that is a lot of work to go to just to ruin your own game. Its not obvious, and its probably not going to work in multiplayer or situations where the enemy is already hostile.
I take it you got a 1 str character with a save editor?
Frankly I am more or less satisfied with the current state of things. Would tagging explosive barrels as weapons and applying correct weights fix it completely? Sure, but I can accept this compromise.
There is evidence to suggest that this is not a subject Larian wants to address or discuss. Instead they are content to quietly fix it. I can respect that. Its hard to let go of things that don't serve us anymore.
Melkisedeck destroyed your whole "just don't use it" argument
This method is in my language called "dementace" ... google translator sais that in english its "disclaim" but that dont feels right. The whole idea of this method is that its user will use a seemingly similar argument to make completely meaningless and unrelated statements, which people will then associate with the argument, instead of focusing on what the argument was actually expressed about. ... As I see in the local audience, this is a successful procedure ... unfortunately. Example:
Original object of argument: "Barrel of firewine that weigths 40Kg ... cannot be thrown ... and you need at least 16(?)Str and sacrifice major part of your whole carryweight (sometimes even all of it) to at least manipulate it."
Demented oject of argument (quoted): "Portal opening on player's camp, and having a demon giving explosives with no weight and automatic crossbows."
If you really cant see difference between theese two objects, im affraid that im not the one who ... "lack understanding of the most basic concepts of game design and immersion" to use your own words.
The problem with barrelmancy is that it was too easy to bring a bunch of barrels or other easy explodables. If only your high STR characters can carry one barrel it's pretty much fixed. Nobody's arguing that they should remove explosive barrels altogether, it just shouldn't trivialize everything else.
With the original barrelmancy problem it would literally be the same as giving everyone several necklaces of fireball. The point of his argument was that a game should have rules and restrictions, which you're clearly arguing against.
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
You're still acting as if people just want others to not have fun,
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I never said that ... well, i asked that few times, if that is actualy reason, bcs that i would be able to understand (kind of) ... so i can see where you get this idea. But i only and repeately claimed that removing something that is fun for me results in me having less fun. I would say that should not require futher explanation. O_o
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Honestly, do you people even realize that this game is not for you allone? O_o Since it dont really seem that way, more like ... "i want this game to be perfect for myself and screw others". :-/ I must admit it kinda makes me sad. :-/ We could all have the perfect (or at least good enough) game (i tryed, therefore i know it IS possible), but you (and by this i dont mean Blackheifer specificly, but you as a whole part of comunity fighting against anything 5e-unpure) just seem to me like you, for some unknown reason, cant stand the fact that someone else is having fun in other way, that you specificly allowed ... there is harsh world waiting for you outside with this mindset. :-/
Come on man...
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
while I already explained to you that the presence of this stuff actually affects people's enjoyment.
No, you didnt explained anything ... you (as many others) stated it, if that is what you mean. But never told me either why, nor how. O_o
So please, if you really already explained ... quote me anything you wrote that answers this: Why do you need to force everyone to play the game your prefered way to have your fun?
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
The problem with barrelmancy is, as many other say, that it's an optimal strategy. Every encounter can be easily overcome using it. In addition it's a very easy exploit to find, so much so that it's hard to say if it even is an exploit. Just by playing the game normally you can find out about how strong this stuff is, as it's simply just a feature of the game.
Now add to that the amount of explosive barrels available (which is also immersion breaking) and you've got a situation where you as a player are not sure whether the game is balanced around this or not. If you don't know this for sure and your abilities don't matter for barrelmancy, and thus for encounters, it feels like your choices didn't matter.
The amount of explosive barrels available also causes the problem of removing the novelty of the idea. Bringing along an explosive barrel to win an encounter can be really cool, but when that can just be done every battle, it's pretty boring. The amount of it feels like a DM constantly telling you to use his "fun" solution. A single oil barrel that you could use somewhere, is way more exciting than an oil barrel around every corner.
It's not a glitch, but a feature, which makes it hard to ignore. Larian has a tendency to put in so many exploitable mechanics that aren't glitches, so you start wondering if you're supposed to use them, especially if you're having a hard time in a fight. If it were an obvious glitch, like item-duping in other games for example, people would not nearly have as much a problem with it.
All in all, people (even those who hate it) actually do want to use barrelmancy, but they want to feel clever for using it and it should be unique to a certain experience. This means making it more rare and as they've done add some sort of requirement for strength, because then your character choices matter again. You find a difficult encounter: "Maybe you can stash some loot in order to have the barbarian bring that barrel from the town and then you'll get them!" is way more fun than: "This encounter is hard, I guess I'll take one of those 7 explosive barrels out of my inventory." If it's too easy to do, it simply becomes a thing they won't allow themselves to use or it trivializes everything, rather than a cool option they could use once.
That whole post is about it not being fun. It's not about forcing everyone to play my preferred way, it's about the designers creating the game in such a way that I can use every tool in the game to overcome the challenges without me having to arbitrarily decide which tools I do or do not use.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Some could say that i make as much effort as you do ... Or at least, i didnt get much "i understand your point" from the other side ... even tho i must admit that there are rare exceptions ... Blackheifer was one of them, right now i honestly cant remember anyone else, but im sure someone is still there.
//Edit: Maybe even a little more, because unlike others, I still don't feel the need to lower myself to personal attacks.
That's because you don't make any good points.
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
The stuff you're arguing for is exactly the same, you want it to be perfect for you.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I never claimed otherwise ... Except the situations, where i claimed that my fun is not endangering yours, since you can avoid it easily. :P
Yet you pretend to have the moral high ground for not trying to "remove" other people's fun.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
[quote=Dabedidabe]Many people want an RPG to be an immersive experience, where the world is believable and their choices matter.
Well, im one of them ... I simply dont concider removing from the game everything that i could potentialy dislike, to be "immersive" in any way.
Immersion is about the believability of the world. It can be stretched a bit, which is often done with gold not having weight. One character carrying 4 barrels of liquid is not believable though.
Removing things you dislike is not by definition immersive no, but you see, in that statement you remove all context from the discussion and basically state that everyone else is just arguing for the things they dislike to be removed. It's such a dishonest statement and I really can't see it as anything else than a troll trying to be infuriating. Let's say I don't like hammers, I would never argue to have them removed for the sake of immersion, because it's still believable that they're in the world and people use them as a weapon. If every hammer attack made enemies fly 30 feet into the air on impact adding extra fall damage, then I would argue to tone it down with immersion being one of many reasons. That's where the immersion problem came from.
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
You just want a map where everything is allowed and you make your own rules.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
As before, you said that not me ... But as long as you keep seeing me like this, i dont blame you for missunderstanding everything i say ... its just mindset.
It's derived from your "just don't use it" attitude.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Kryldost
The barrels are not going back to what they were, the only way to have them back will be to use mods.
Eh ... i cant help the feeling that you didnt actualy read that arguing ... As far as i know, nobody wants them "back" ... AKA as they were. O_o
I want them to remain as they are right now ... (+ add reaction when you drop it next to NPC) And other people want them just removed completely.
I'm currently not playing, but from what I gather it's now harder to bring barrels with you with carry weight. Which is basically the fix(toning it down) most people(including me) wanted. This is exactly what I'm arguing for. I'm so confused. In that statement you basically said that you agree with everything I said, you like it this way. Having a reaction from NPCs when you do this stuff around them is also a great idea, as it would be very good for immersion!
I'm not even gonna react to the rest, cus your really not making any sense.
Well, in that case i shall concider this sentence to be: "I see your opinion and I have no valid arguments against it ... but I just have to say that I still disagree with you, because otherwise it would mean that I realized that I was wrong ... so I will simply try to undermine it by some general and a meaningless statement." I presume that is fair.
That's funny for someone that has tendency to react to half my arguments and say that I make assumptions, while ignoring elaborations on statements.
I assure you it's not because I don't have arguments. The reason is because you lack understanding of the most basic concepts of game design and immersion. Either that, or you are a professional troll. I'm not gonna be able to convince you, you'll always just react with nonsense. Melkisedeck destroyed your whole "just don't use it" argument, but you're still going as if you make good points...
You're still acting as if people just want others to not have fun, while I already explained to you that the presence of this stuff actually affects people's enjoyment. You're making no effort at all to understand this. The stuff you're arguing for is exactly the same, you want it to be perfect for you. Many people want an RPG to be an immersive experience, where the world is believable and their choices matter. You just want a map where everything is allowed and you make your own rules. I suggest you go play Garry's mod, there's pretty much infinite things to try out there.
TBH, it's clearly an attempt to make others give up exposing their arguments.
This is not only noticeable by the mockery tone used, but also because there is a lot of intelectual dihonesty in the arguments, like: a) Isolating phrases to distort what was said; b) Making false correlations; c) Purposefully misinterpreting/misreading arguments made by others to lie about what was said; d) Changing the subject of the discussion; e) Using another issue to justify the manaintence of the issue under discussion; f) Responding to a distorted version of what was said - hoping that people without patience/time to read all of it wil actually believe in the false information given.
It's just arguing to be annoying, and pretend that nobody will notice this kind of behavior.
And another thing already mentioned here:
Originally Posted by Tuco
"Winning" arguments on the forum with contrived logic and disingenuous talking points since October 2020, all thanks to the uncanny ability of murdering people's mouse wheels and using pointless multiquotes as a bizarre ritual to drain everyone's mental strength.
The problem with barrelmancy is that it was too easy to bring a bunch of barrels or other easy explodables. If only your high STR characters can carry one barrel it's pretty much fixed.
Same fix you get, when NPC start to react that you are placing explosives next to them. O_o
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
With the original barrelmancy problem it would literally be the same as giving everyone several necklaces of fireball. The point of his argument was that a game should have rules and restrictions, which you're clearly arguing against.
Original barrelmancy problem dont extist anymore ... and even myself dont cry for that, lets focus on present.
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
Come on man...
What should i say to this ... cone on you too?
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
The problem with barrelmancy is, as many other say, that it's an optimal strategy. Every encounter can be easily overcome using it. In addition it's a very easy exploit to find, so much so that it's hard to say if it even is an exploit. Just by playing the game normally you can find out about how strong this stuff is, as it's simply just a feature of the game.
Now add to that the amount of explosive barrels available (which is also immersion breaking) and you've got a situation where you as a player are not sure whether the game is balanced around this or not. If you don't know this for sure and your abilities don't matter for barrelmancy, and thus for encounters, it feels like your choices didn't matter.
The amount of explosive barrels available also causes the problem of removing the novelty of the idea. Bringing along an explosive barrel to win an encounter can be really cool, but when that can just be done every battle, it's pretty boring. The amount of it feels like a DM constantly telling you to use his "fun" solution. A single oil barrel that you could use somewhere, is way more exciting than an oil barrel around every corner.
It's not a glitch, but a feature, which makes it hard to ignore. Larian has a tendency to put in so many exploitable mechanics that aren't glitches, so you start wondering if you're supposed to use them, especially if you're having a hard time in a fight. If it were an obvious glitch, like item-duping in other games for example, people would not nearly have as much a problem with it.
All in all, people (even those who hate it) actually do want to use barrelmancy, but they want to feel clever for using it and it should be unique to a certain experience. This means making it more rare and as they've done add some sort of requirement for strength, because then your character choices matter again. You find a difficult encounter: "Maybe you can stash some loot in order to have the barbarian bring that barrel from the town and then you'll get them!" is way more fun than: "This encounter is hard, I guess I'll take one of those 7 explosive barrels out of my inventory." If it's too easy to do, it simply becomes a thing they won't allow themselves to use or it trivializes everything, rather than a cool option they could use once.
This is the core(st? ) problem in our dialogue ... Wat you see is "explanation" ... what i see, is "statement" ...
You are just telling me that game is ruined for you ... but you dont explain me why. And that is the only thing i wanted (actualy even needed) to know, everything else i have heared thousand times over.
This one will be long ... but i do my best to explain you my point of view on that:
You stated that Barrels are present in game, and teoreticaly could be used anywhere ... But they are not present in "every encounter" as you said it, they have to be carryed to those encounters (maybe except Gut, and possibly Ragzlin that is pretty close, but for both there are much easier tactics) ... That is why i just cant accept this argument. :-/ If you were right, and there were coventient Barrel of gunpowder next to every, or at least half harder boss encounters ... i would agree with you, but they simply are not. :-/ If you drag them there, use them, and then feel like your game was just ruined, its not misstake of that barrel ... even less if you do that again.
You stated, that Barrels are seen as "an optimal strategy" ... But that is also not valid ... Actualy by using them in Tutorial, im prolonging the thing that can be done in less than 10 minutes to almost 3/4 hour ... and as i said multiple times, so far i never managed to kill all 3 cambions with that explosion allone, so all i did is shorten the combat, therefore the "optimal strategy" and "easy button" is not even working properly here ... that dont seem to be price high enough to pay? If you have seen Wolfhearts video of Him vs. all Goblin leaders, he also used some explosives there ... preparation took him almost whole hour (shame he cut it so it cannot be seen, not sure if he record his streaming) ... and we all should know that he could kill them "convencial way" and funny enough, in this particular example it again would ben even easier. I dont have data for any other encounters, ince i didnt use them there ... if you have any screen or video, please share.
You stated, that amount of Barrels is "immersion breaking" ... I never counted them ... if you did, again, please share. My gues is aproximately 20-25 ... wich for whole map, with two levels and 21 potentialy challenging encounters (meaning: Ruin looters outside, and inside, attact at Gate, fight by windmill, Wood Woads, Red Caps, Masks, Hag, Gut, Minthara, Ragzlin, ...theoreticaly we can count outside of Goblin camp as another..., potentialy Ogres, Gnolls, Githyanki patrol, Spider matriarch, Minotaurs, Bulette, Hooked Horrors, potentialy Myconid Willage, Duergar slavers) isnt so much in my opinion. O_o You can notice i leaved some, since i concidered them the most trivial fights ... I know, most people using this sentence is not actualy talking about numbers, but about that in some DnD rulebook (or w/e you call them), there is told that "Gunpowder is rare" ... please note, that even if you multiplied the amount of gunpowder by a thousand ... on a global scale, it could still be quite rare. :-/
You stated, that you are not sure if game is "balanced aroung it or not" ... I honestly dont understand this statement, and im affraid i never will ... How exactly could be game "balanced around something" you can completely avoid and ignore? That dont makes any sence to me. :-/ I dont know how you define balancing ... but for me, balance any system "around something" means expect the players to use it every time ... and therefore adjust the game to the power level the player would achieve if he would use it every time. If Barrels are as strong as you claim, that would mean you all who dont use them were playing hardcore version, and you were never suppose to manage to finish it. O_o Do you really believe that is the case?
You stated, that you feel like "your choices dont matter" ... All i can say for this is: What about the choice not to use barrels? Im sorry, existence of Barrels make you feel that ... i really am. But my sympaties is actualy the only thing i could offer you, since i simply believe that by making this *choice* your other choices would start to matter again. :-/
This is some(other)thing i just dont understand ... If you really see Barrels as such cheat ... how about actual cheats in other games? Is their existence ruining your experience? Does bother you that some guy, or kid in other side of the world is using cheats to make his character indesructible, and his weapons so powerful that he kills everything on map by single shot? ... Or do you just play your game, enjoy your encounters, and dont care at all that developers actualy had to implement those cheats in that game, since they do not appear on their own? :P That is why i say: To live, and let live.
You stated, that "using barrels in every battle is boring" ... I agree ... and that is why i dont do that. Why cant you? O_o Why the very existence of that option is bothering you? That is what i would like to understand.
You stated, that "the amount of it feels like a DM constantly telling you to use his "fun" solution" ... I have no idea what to tell you ... you are focusing on problem that dont exists, and that is bringing you this experience. :-/ Its sad, but you did this yourself. :-/
You stated, that you see "an oil barrel around every corner" I believe i allready reacted on this statement allone ... By listing all places where i remembered Barrels ... i cant find it so lets do that again: - Single explosive in Nautiloid remains ... prepared there obviously to overcome this specific encounter for people who are still level 1 ... fun fact: this is actualy the one and only Barrel in whole Act 1 (meaning except Tutorial) that actualy fits to all your descriptions. - Single Barrel inside the Crypt ... - 3 Barrels in Druid secret passage ... part of the trap set to protect the chest - Single Barrel in entrance to Blighted Willage ... part of the trap, prepared by obviously ambushing Goblins - Few (dunno, but certainly less than 5) in Blacksmith basement in Blighted Willage ... - Dunno how many in storage-room in Selune temple (aka inside goblin camp) ... yes, there is many of them, but it have RP purpose you can find, when you listen goblin talking, all of them was bringed by Zhentarims. - 2 Barrels in Halsin vs Goblins encounter room ... - The secret passage to Gnolls encounter ... there are 3 if i remember corectly and they are set there as part of trap. - And finaly Zhentarim hideout ... there is also quite a lot of them, on many places ... but since Zhentarims werea allready confrimed as group that is able to provide explosives from all around the world ... it kinda makes sence to me, that they will also use them. :-/
I dont remember any more ... As far as i know, for example Underdark is free of them completely ... there are only flamable mushrooms, but you cant drag them anywhere.
It might seem a lot at first sight ... but its not even half locations in game. :-/ Maybe not even third ... So i would say that "around every corner" is a little too dramatic. :-/
You stated, that "its hard to ignore" I simply cannot agree with this ... probably never. Since i played the whole game multiple times, and i did ignored it COMPLETELY (read as: Never blown even single Barrel) ... so either im exceptionaly good, or it obviously IS not so hard. :-/ My money goes on second option.
You stated, that "Larian has a tendency to put in so many exploitable mechanics that aren't glitches, so you start wondering if you're supposed to use them, especially if you're having a hard time in a fight." I didnt find any way to shorten this sentence without loose its meaning ... I would say for this that this is first objectively good argument (in my eyes ofcourse), that i would agree on with you ... except that i dont care what Larian expects me to use, what i care is what i want to use ... and one of points of existence for Early Acess is show Larian what we wants to use, and if this game would even be playable for us while we use that. At least, that is my point of view. And since Larian keeps tuning all encounters based on what people do, and what people dont do, and where people have hard time, and where people dont ... i dare to say that im on right track.
You stated, that "people (even those who hate it) actually do want to use barrelmancy" It certainly dont feel that way.
You stated, that "but they want to feel clever for using it and it should be unique to a certain experience." And i say they have that option.
You stated, that "this means making it more rare and as they've done add some sort of requirement for strength, because then your character choices matter again." Requirement of strength is allready there ... its existence BTW, is the main (and possibly the only) reason for existence of this topic. And about rarity? Every player have option to make this experience as rare as he pleases ... it all in our hands. :-/ But im repeating myself again. -_-
And finaly ... You stated, that "If it's too easy to do, it simply becomes a thing they won't allow themselves to use or it trivializes everything, rather than a cool option they could use once." If they won't allow themselves to use it ... even tho they want to, and the fact that they didnt ruins their game ... I would dare to say that they made wrong decision. :-/
As i said million times, and as i still keep believe: Its all in our hands ... You want to blow none Barrel > you can. You want to blow single Barrel per game > you can. You want to blow all Barrels in game > you can.
And THAT is the right way to do ... give us options, let us decide. I thank Larian, for understanding this.
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
That whole post is about it not being fun. It's not about forcing everyone to play my preferred way, it's about the designers creating the game in such a way that I can use every tool in the game to overcome the challenges without me having to arbitrarily decide which tools I do or do not use.
Please explain me the differnce. O_o
You demand to reduce amount of tools game gives you, so you can play with all of them all the time ... (note that you never use all of them, you allways have to choose ... there is no way to kill the same enemy simultanously with meele attack, ranged attack, all spell attacks, and explosive at the same time) Instead of just here and there refuse to use some tool (preferably some you dont want to use in that particular case), to get exactly the same outcome. O_o How is that "not forcing your prefered way"?
I demand to let tools as they are, so i can play with all of them (aka. they way i prefer) any time i want.
The beauty of curent system is that we both CAN (at least potentialy) get exactly the experience we want, no matter what experience we want, since all those OPTIONS are present ... we just have to learn to accept other person choices are not the same as ours ... Dor example, i cant care less how do you engage Gith patrol ... do you care how i do? If not, that is promising start.
Actualy this very topic, could work as quite acurate simulation ... Note how many people get here only to tell us that they dont want us to talk about it anymore, they dont bring any new point of view, they dont even talk about topic anymore ... most of them dont even appear again. My question here would be: Why do they even care? All they need to do, is simply stop reading this topic (personaly i just "mark as read" many of the topics around here, there is no need to read EVERYTHING ... i mean, unless you are moderator ), there is countless others, that are obviously more interesting by their opinion since they never stoped there to tell people that their topic is irellevant for them ... but they *simply can't*, they feel this incredibly strong iressitable urge to come here and inform us that they dont like to read this ... there is no logic in such behaviour, except that they want to force us to behave as they want, they simply cannot stand the fact that there is someone do something they dont like, even if it dont affects them in any way ... nothing else.
As i said ... to live, and to let live. Lets play on our own playground, and stop kick someone's else mud pie ... bcs its square, but we wanted them all to be round.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
I feel like when we identify something as an "Absurdity" which Barrelmancy certainly is then we look to Mods to bring it back into the game for those people who want that.
I have no doubt some nostalgic modder will do that for people who want to defy physics and carry 10 barrels, place them next to various baddies and detonate them and then jump up and down clapping to the explosions' - as I assume people do - before running off to compose poetry to Michael Bay.
I get the sense that we are all mostly fine with how things currently stand after Patch 5, yet the arguments are going on. I confess to being somewhat at a loss at this point.
I think the flaw in your arguments is that the game is currently balanced around the overabundant tools (exploits) that you claim we can ignore. You may not mind how I approach the gith fight, but the fact that I will die a horrible death unless I use my foreknowledge of what is going to happen to position myself where I need to be, shove everyone and shoot them down from high ground kinda limits my options.
I think the flaw in your arguments is that the game is currently balanced around the overabundant tools (exploits) that you claim we can ignore. You may not mind how I approach the gith fight, but the fact that I will die a horrible death unless I use my foreknowledge of what is going to happen to position myself where I need to be, shove everyone and shoot them down from high ground kinda limits my options.
I claim you can ignore Barrels ... and since bo barrel was mentioned in your example, i would dare to say we agree on this one. If you want to talk about any other non-PnP rule in game, please move to relevant topic.
All i can say is that you can position your characters even without foreknowlege (at least i did on my first play ... and i dare to claim that i didnt have any foreknowledge back then ) ... and even if you dont, some people (not me tho, i didnt try this yet) claimed that even on Patch 5 they are killable even if your whole group gets down to talk to them. So, i believe it is possible.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
Maybe: "Oh yeah, I did say that. Sorry, you were right."
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
This is the core(st? ) problem in our dialogue ... Wat you see is "explanation" ... what i see, is "statement" ...
If you can't see how that is an explanation of how this stuff makes other people feel while playing and every elaboration is just a statement to you, the only way I can actually explain this to you is by talking about neurotransmitters in the brain which cause us to feel good. No thank you, that is far too deep an explanation to get into here.
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You stated, that you see "an oil barrel around every corner" I believe i allready reacted on this statement allone ... By listing all places where i remembered Barrels ... i cant find it so lets do that again: - Single explosive in Nautiloid remains ... prepared there obviously to overcome this specific encounter for people who are still level 1 ... fun fact: this is actualy the one and only Barrel in whole Act 1 (meaning except Tutorial) that actualy fits to all your descriptions. - Single Barrel inside the Crypt ... - 3 Barrels in Druid secret passage ... part of the trap set to protect the chest - Single Barrel in entrance to Blighted Willage ... part of the trap, prepared by obviously ambushing Goblins - Few (dunno, but certainly less than 5) in Blacksmith basement in Blighted Willage ... - Dunno how many in storage-room in Selune temple (aka inside goblin camp) ... yes, there is many of them, but it have RP purpose you can find, when you listen goblin talking, all of them was bringed by Zhentarims. - 2 Barrels in Halsin vs Goblins encounter room ... - The secret passage to Gnolls encounter ... there are 3 if i remember corectly and they are set there as part of trap. - And finaly Zhentarim hideout ... there is also quite a lot of them, on many places ... but since Zhentarims werea allready confrimed as group that is able to provide explosives from all around the world ... it kinda makes sence to me, that they will also use them. :-/
That is so frickin' many, compared to what you'd expect to see in a medieval fantasy world, Faerun in this case. xD
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
You stated, that "people (even those who hate it) actually do want to use barrelmancy" It certainly dont feel that way. laugh
You stated, that "but they want to feel clever for using it and it should be unique to a certain experience." And i say they have that option.
People hate it because of how it's implemented, not that it's implemented. It doesn't feel clever when it's too abundantly available, because it doesn't feel like something you came up with to use in a creative way. Rather, it feels like the designers telling you to do that specific thing a lot cus explosions are cool. You don't have the option of feeling clever, it's something you either feel, or you don't.
To all the other stuff. I only wanted to explain to you why barrelmancy in it's old form was not fun for people. I don't want explosive barrels to be entirely removed. By being able to carry so many, they'd always be available. Having the strength requirement pretty much fixes the problem, which you and I agree on. I want the option to use an explosive barrel to be there, I just don't want it to be so often, so it still feels satisfying when I do. I also want that option to not affect how good other options feel.
Game rules make you feel a certain way and they need to be balanced around each other. D&D 5e is actually a very balanced game, a single race isn't the best for one class, there's many combinations with pros and cons, especially now with Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. This balance is important, so it doesn't feel bad when you pick certain things. Instead you get to shine when the thing you picked comes up. Dwarven fighters are cool, cus they get a higher stat (for a bit more accuracy and damage) and they have poison resistance, but Half-orc fighters are cool, because they do a bit more damage on a crit and can stay alive for one more hit. The value of either of these doesn't far outweigh the other, which makes them both nice to have.
In the end you agree with the changes that make the world more believable (strength requirement), and choices to matter (playing a high strength character) and hope for NPCs to react to placing barrels, so you feel these things just like everyone else, and yet you're arguing.
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I feel like when we identify something as an "Absurdity" which Barrelmancy certainly is then we look to Mods to bring it back into the game for those people who want that.
I have no doubt some nostalgic modder will do that for people who want to defy physics and carry 10 barrels, place them next to various baddies and detonate them and then jump up and down clapping to the explosions' - as I assume people do - before running off to compose poetry to Michael Bay.
I get the sense that we are all mostly fine with how things currently stand after Patch 5, yet the arguments are going on. I confess to being somewhat at a loss at this point.
]
Yeah, also pretty lost and confused... I won't react after this one anymore, I promise. x)
To all the other stuff. I only wanted to explain to you why barrelmancy in it's old form was not fun for people.
We could save a lot of time then ... I dont care about "how it was before" ... im only talking about "how it is now" ... and potentialy "how it could be in the future" ... and as long as "how it is now" equals "how it will be" ... im totaly happy.
So why even talk about "how it was before" ? O_o
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
In the end you agree with the changes that make the world more believable (strength requirement), and choices to matter (playing a high strength character) and hope for NPCs to react to placing barrels, so you feel these things just like everyone else, and yet you're arguing.
Well, not "just like everyone else" ... there is too many different points to generalize ... And yes i am arguing (or more like WE ARE arguing ... you allways need at least two to make argument :P ) ... but i also stated countless times that *curent* system is what i like.
Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
Yeah, also pretty lost and confused... I won't react after this one anymore, I promise. x)
I dont mind anyone reacting ... i like to talk about stuff. (who would say, right?)
But if you dont (and by this "you" i dont mean just Dabedidabe ... but any "you" who are on crusade for eradicating all barrels from the face of Faerun) ... just embrace the experience and then re-aply the same procedure ingame. :P
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
One thing I can say is that the effort to set this up exceeded the actual time it would take to just do the fight. LOL That has to be every single barrel in the entire game.
Probably used the Send to Camp, then retrieve from Camp - move to a local player and place method.
That's a lot more barrels than I used on my attempt pre-patch5 ahahahah, I threw barrels of oil covering the whole field and set it ablaze after starting the fight. This is much more effective, but the time required for it is not something I'd dare to put in. XD
That's a lot more barrels than I used on my attempt pre-patch5 ahahahah, I threw barrels of oil covering the whole field and set it ablaze after starting the fight. This is much more effective, but the time required for it is not something I'd dare to put in. XD
The funny thing is that Barrelmancy or using barrels actually makes sense for this fight because the Tieflings were the ones to set it up originally so you are just adding to their defenses.
Yeah, the recent changes are pretty much the D:OS2 approach to barrels: Make them so cumbersome to use that you'd have to really go out of their way to bring them out of their former area, so that any effort setting them up will likely far exceed just doing the encounter normally.
Still gotta respect the above video since it is reasonable to try using as many as possible over there.
