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Originally Posted by RutgerF
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
As a note this is also going to suck for Paladins since by what I can tell here Paladins will have to decide whether or not to Smite before they roll instead of choosing to add it to a successful attack as you can in the TTRPG.
Nah, they will do the same to Paladins what they did to Weapon Masters: a Hotbar button for a separate kind of attack, which will use up a spell slot if they hit and won't if they miss. Same as it is with superiority dice, currently.

Ah well, that's something at least. Still not the full TTRPG functionality, of either feature really since they're both choose-after-hit powers, but ah well. Tolerable adjustment for CRPG.

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I'll have to disagree.
Rogues are pretty great out of combat and will be even more so when they add expertise.
Now on combat they are preatty good too since Sneak attack deals lots of damage, I mean, a feature that adds 1d6 every two levels!? At some levels you will hit even more than a fighter... (Remeber that you basically garante sneak attack just hiding before the hit)

I can agree that as a rogue you don't have that many option and strategies on combat as a Druid would have. But still, since the positioning makes a great deal for Rogues you'll probably have a good time with him.

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Rogues do a ton of damage in battle. While I hate taking Astarion with me (leave it with the tormented and brooding vampire types already), since he is the least favorite of the companions for me, I take him to hard fights nontheless. Or I play a rogue myself. With sneak attack, they often have a very high damage output.


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I wouldn't go so far as to say "useless", but I believe I understand the sentiment. Back then (meaning in original BG games) you play a rogue because 1) lockpicking, 2) trap disarming, 3) pickpocketing, 4) stealth - good as a scouting and escape tool, 5) backstab damage, and 6) "use anything" (or use scrolls if game is modded) high-level ability.

Based on my experience playing Pathfinder:Kingmaker (~80h so far, Knife Master Rogue), now you play rogue because 1) sneak attack damage, and 2) more skill points, so you are good at more skills than other characters. It's not bad, but rogue definitely feels less distinctive. Other classes can also be a skill monkey if they have high INT. Bards can pick locks + disarm traps too. And disappointingly there's no pickpocketing in this game. Basically, most of the things a rogue can do can be done by other classes, it's just that a rogue is good at more things at the same time than most other classes. Now if the only thing you got going for rogues is "sneak attack deals plenty of damage", that's pretty weak tbh. Their high damage per hit is just a benefit they get in exchange for the drawbacks of being a rogue.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 27/07/21 08:14 AM.

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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
I wouldn't go so far as to say "useless", but I believe I understand the sentiment. Back then (meaning in original BG games) you play a rogue because 1) lockpicking, 2) trap disarming, 3) pickpocketing, 4) stealth - good as a scouting and escape tool, 5) backstab damage, and 6) "use anything" (or use scrolls if game is modded) high-level ability.

Based on my experience playing Pathfinder:Kingmaker (~80h so far, Knife Master Rogue), now you play rogue because 1) sneak attack damage, and 2) more skill points, so you are good at more skills than other characters. It's not bad, but rogue definitely feels less distinctive. Other classes can also be a skill monkey if they have high INT. Bards can pick locks + disarm traps too. And disappointingly there's no pickpocketing in this game. Basically, most of the things a rogue can do can be done by other classes, it's just that a rogue is good at more things at the same time than most other classes. Now if the only thing you got going for rogues is "sneak attack deals plenty of damage", that's pretty weak tbh. Their high damage per hit is just a benefit they get in exchange for the drawbacks of being a rogue.

This was what I was getting at. Thanks for the eloquence. All the distinctives of the rogue seem to be missing.

Appreciate all the responses btw smile


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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
I wouldn't go so far as to say "useless", but I believe I understand the sentiment. Back then (meaning in original BG games) you play a rogue because 1) lockpicking, 2) trap disarming, 3) pickpocketing, 4) stealth - good as a scouting and escape tool, 5) backstab damage, and 6) "use anything" (or use scrolls if game is modded) high-level ability.

Based on my experience playing Pathfinder:Kingmaker (~80h so far, Knife Master Rogue), now you play rogue because 1) sneak attack damage, and 2) more skill points, so you are good at more skills than other characters. It's not bad, but rogue definitely feels less distinctive. Other classes can also be a skill monkey if they have high INT. Bards can pick locks + disarm traps too. And disappointingly there's no pickpocketing in this game. Basically, most of the things a rogue can do can be done by other classes, it's just that a rogue is good at more things at the same time than most other classes. Now if the only thing you got going for rogues is "sneak attack deals plenty of damage", that's pretty weak tbh. Their high damage per hit is just a benefit they get in exchange for the drawbacks of being a rogue.
Except for disarming traps, you could substitute the rogue with other classes in the original BG too: rangers could stealth (and in BG2 stalkers could backstab), locks could be bashed with high strength or the knock spell, bards could pickpocket (and also got use any item in BG2). There was also a spell to detect traps, though it would not disarm them.

In PK I'd say having a main character who has lots of skill points is worth it, because in some instances you cannot use your party to make the roll, and skill check yield (at least when I've played) lots of experience.

Last edited by ash elemental; 27/07/21 01:31 PM.
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There is pickpocketing in this game. You have to be in stealth to do it, but if you mouse over an NPC while in stealth it gives you a pickpocket prompt.

That said, yeah, most of the unique flavor in Rogue comes from the subclasses:

Thief - lots of mobility and at high levels the ability to attune to use any magic item
Assassin - lots of disguise and infiltration and some really high first round damage potential
Arcane Trickster - magic, some interesting new uses for Mage Hand.

and for the stuff we're not likely to see in a while

Inquisitive - Be Sherlock Holmes, detect illusions/shapeshifts, do that whole slow-time combat-analysis thing. Though one of it's features is overshadowed and replaced by Reliable Talent at 11th level
Mastermind - A lot of deception and manipulation, not sure how they'd model the "Help as 30 ft ranged bonus action" since Help doesn't seem to be an option in this game. Unless I missed it.
Scout - More mobility, second sneak attack opportunity at high level, nature and survival for free at 3rd, ambush benefits for the party
Swashbuckler - Bonus to initiative, bonuses to fighting one-on-one, use sneak attack vs isolated foes, more mobility, charm ability, Bonus Action to grant Advantage to Acrobatics and Athletics rolls.
Phantom - Expand sneak attack to a second person via the wails of reaped souls, spectral form, gather "soul trinkets" and use them for protection from death saves, asking info, extra wails of grave uses
Soulknife - Telepathy, psionic boost to skills, Psylocke blades, teleportation, invisibility

Last edited by Thrythlind; 27/07/21 02:01 PM.
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Rogue is useless, so is arcane Trickster, Thief however is REALLY strong. Thief gets double bonus action and can do so much shit that no other class can do in a round. They are EXTREMELY mobile and can do things like: dash in, attack and dash out, or double dash and attack, or double dash disengage, or use their bonus actions for 3 attacks per round with 2 off-hand attacks, or hide every round after dashing and attacking, or attack someone then shove them away, or they can shove twice in a round. They can basically reach anyone anywhere as soon as their turn starts and you can't catch them.

Last edited by Kadajko; 27/07/21 04:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by Kadajko
Rogue is useless, so is arcane Trickster, Thief however is REALLY strong.
With how easy it is to get +1 weapons and Arcane Trickster's best spells aren't in the game at the moment (Booming Blade for example), thief should be the go-to I guess.

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Wow, maybe you guys who think rogues are "useless" are using them wrong. Asterion does tons of damage. I can solo the gnoll fight with him.

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I like old school D&D - warlock - what the hecks a warlock overpowered cheater class smile - nobody else should be able to pick locks only rogues ...nobody else ....rogues are the specialist class for dodgy stuff.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Rogue is useless, so is arcane Trickster, Thief however is REALLY strong.
With how easy it is to get +1 weapons and Arcane Trickster's best spells aren't in the game at the moment (Booming Blade for example), thief should be the go-to I guess.

Not to dash anyone's hopes. But;

1. Larian does balance as an afterthought - sometimes hardly at all unless pressed hard to do so
2. Booming Blade is not PHB-material which makes any future implementation highly questionable

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All the classes can do all the things, given the right resources.
The difference is that each class does something extremely better than the others.

Each class can do sustained damage, but a barbarian or a fighter are specialized in doing it. In the same fashion, every class can pick a lock or sneak around, a rogue is just twice as better in doing so (thrice as soon as they implement expertise).

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Originally Posted by Trix Salamonde
Rogues are useless in this game. When you can pick locks as a Warlock or Ranger, why would anyone play a rogue?

confused

I was just discussing this with someone on YouTube today. Its not that I think non-rogues should *never* be able to do these things, I just think the difficulty should be so high that you'd simply not risk trusting the task to anyone *but* a rogue.....especially if your dexterity is below 17.

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OK so,

time for my serving of crow. I took to heart some of the advice in this thread, looked at a few rogue building guides and have come to the conclusion that rogues are not, indeed, useless in this game.

Thanks for setting me straight.


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Originally Posted by MarcHicks
Originally Posted by Trix Salamonde
Rogues are useless in this game. When you can pick locks as a Warlock or Ranger, why would anyone play a rogue?

confused

I was just discussing this with someone on YouTube today. Its not that I think non-rogues should *never* be able to do these things, I just think the difficulty should be so high that you'd simply not risk trusting the task to anyone *but* a rogue.....especially if your dexterity is below 17.

Making skills like lockpicking or pickpocketing uniquely tied to the rogue would inevitably lead to the Rogue being REQUIRED in any sort of optimized party composition. You would effectively be forced to either play a Rogue or always pick Astarion in your party. Making it functionally unique, as in only reliable for a Rogue as you suggest, would amount to the same thing - and incentivize save-scumming which makes for really shitty gameplay.

Rogues will be able to excel at these things through the implementation of Expertise (double proficiency bonus) and Reliable Talent (any roll 9 or less is counted as a 10). Rogues are not at all useless and don't need to hog these skills for flavor, beyond EA-levels the class differences will be accentuated evermore. In my mind; Clerics/healers have even more legitimate aggrievance as healing and resurrecting is universalised through the ample supply of related magic items.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Originally Posted by Kadajko
Rogue is useless, so is arcane Trickster, Thief however is REALLY strong.
With how easy it is to get +1 weapons and Arcane Trickster's best spells aren't in the game at the moment (Booming Blade for example), thief should be the go-to I guess.

Not to dash anyone's hopes. But;

1. Larian does balance as an afterthought - sometimes hardly at all unless pressed hard to do so
2. Booming Blade is not PHB-material which makes any future implementation highly questionable
Personally I'm okay with thief being the better subclass in BG3, not everything can be 1:1 with tabletop wink

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Thief is a pretty good subclass in the TTRPG, it's just not usually what I go to Rogue for... I usually go for more of the intrigue stuff so Inquisitive and Mastermind are my Rogue jams.

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Rogue will take a step back when level five is in the game. Thief double bonus action will still be strong, but when all the melee classes get double attack EXCEPT for rogue sneak attack will struggle to keep up.

Lae'zal plus weapon master will crush Astarion dpr wise (although you can always bring both).

Last edited by dwig; 29/07/21 02:14 AM.
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Combat isn't the only way to make a class feel unique. The druids is my favourite class as of now, because of the roleplaying options in the grove and the fun you can have with animal shapes. For rogues, I'd expect they get their "faction" once the game moves to Baldur's Gate city. In original BG1 there was a fun questline involving the local thieves guild which required having a rogue in the party, and doing those side quests changed your standing with the guild and the outcome of another quest.

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