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Originally Posted by dwig
Rogue will take a step back when level five is in the game. Thief double bonus action will still be strong, but when all the melee classes get double attack EXCEPT for rogue sneak attack will struggle to keep up.
Slightly. But rogues do another sneak attack die at level 5, which somewhat makes up for the lack of extra attack.
Rogues will catch up even more at levels 7 and 9, with a total of 4 and 5d6 sneak attack dice respectively at those levels.

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Sneak attack gets progressively more devastating and, importantly, the resource it spends refreshes each turn. Not round, turn.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Sneak attack gets progressively more devastating and, importantly, the resource it spends refreshes each turn. Not round, turn.

That is true in 5e. In BG3 you must activate sneak attack with a special button, and that means that you do not get sneak attack die on attacks of opportunity (at least I don't think that you do, has anybody tested this?)

This is something that Larian should fix. I don't see why the special buttons are needed. Rogue should automatically get sneak attack on any attack that satisfies the conditions that allow it.

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Originally Posted by Trix Salamonde
Rogues are useless in this game. When you can pick locks as a Warlock or Ranger, why would anyone play a rogue?

confused

Because Rogues are Beasts: I just posted this Elite Rogue build - The Dark Sniper.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=784086&#Post784086


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by Trix Salamonde
Rogues are useless in this game. When you can pick locks as a Warlock or Ranger, why would anyone play a rogue?

confused

Because Rogues are Beasts: I just posted this Elite Rogue build - The Dark Sniper.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=784086&#Post784086

Oh now. You're going to make me do another run, aren't you.


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Oh, side note, the entrance to the tomb that Shadowheart says "best find another way in" on, it's a high difficulty, but if you manage it, she responds "You opened it? Just like that?"

It's so fun.

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Originally Posted by dwig
Rogue will take a step back when level five is in the game. Thief double bonus action will still be strong, but when all the melee classes get double attack EXCEPT for rogue sneak attack will struggle to keep up.

Lae'zal plus weapon master will crush Astarion dpr wise (although you can always bring both).
When (if) multiclass is in the game just get another 5 levels of fighter or ranger and Thief will be the king of DPR with 4 attack per round + sneak attack. Ranger can add hunter's mark to that and Battlemaster adding potentially another sneak attack through Riposte.
All of this however still doesn't make any sense beause Thief in 5e is not supposed to be focused on dpr.

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by dwig
Rogue will take a step back when level five is in the game. Thief double bonus action will still be strong, but when all the melee classes get double attack EXCEPT for rogue sneak attack will struggle to keep up.

Lae'zal plus weapon master will crush Astarion dpr wise (although you can always bring both).
When (if) multiclass is in the game just get another 5 levels of fighter or ranger and Thief will be the king of DPR with 4 attack per round + sneak attack. Ranger can add hunter's mark to that and Battlemaster adding potentially another sneak attack through Riposte.
All of this however still doesn't make any sense beause Thief in 5e is not supposed to be focused on dpr.

Why 4? 5 Rogue - 5 Fighter or Ranger has 2 Attacks on the Attack action, plus a potential 1 Bonus attack with two-weapon... one of those will have sneak attack, but not all.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by dwig
Rogue will take a step back when level five is in the game. Thief double bonus action will still be strong, but when all the melee classes get double attack EXCEPT for rogue sneak attack will struggle to keep up.

Lae'zal plus weapon master will crush Astarion dpr wise (although you can always bring both).
When (if) multiclass is in the game just get another 5 levels of fighter or ranger and Thief will be the king of DPR with 4 attack per round + sneak attack. Ranger can add hunter's mark to that and Battlemaster adding potentially another sneak attack through Riposte.
All of this however still doesn't make any sense beause Thief in 5e is not supposed to be focused on dpr.

Why 4? 5 Rogue - 5 Fighter or Ranger has 2 Attacks on the Attack action, plus a potential 1 Bonus attack with two-weapon... one of those will have sneak attack, but not all.
Thief can perform a second offhand attack with his extra bonus action.

Last edited by Danielbda; 30/07/21 06:43 PM.
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ahhh

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
ahhh
All of that with TWF and dual wielder I might add.

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by dwig
Rogue will take a step back when level five is in the game. Thief double bonus action will still be strong, but when all the melee classes get double attack EXCEPT for rogue sneak attack will struggle to keep up.

Lae'zal plus weapon master will crush Astarion dpr wise (although you can always bring both).
When (if) multiclass is in the game just get another 5 levels of fighter or ranger and Thief will be the king of DPR with 4 attack per round + sneak attack. Ranger can add hunter's mark to that and Battlemaster adding potentially another sneak attack through Riposte.
All of this however still doesn't make any sense beause Thief in 5e is not supposed to be focused on dpr.

+1

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
ahhh
All of that with TWF and dual wielder I might add.

Side note, I agree that "Thief is not focused on DPR" and to be honest... most Rogues aren't... really... They have good burst damage and can get some clutch hits, but they're really more of a non-combat class by and large.

I think the exceptions are Phantom and Soulknife which have a lot of damage-focused features... with an honorable mention to Assassin and Scout both of which have features that make surprise rounds deadly (in the Scout's case party buffs, the the Assassin's a mean first round strike).

But really, rogue's combat is a bit simple and reliable and of course a good imaginative player can do a lot with any class, but .... *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Trix Salamonde
Rogues are useless in this game. When you can pick locks as a Warlock or Ranger, why would anyone play a rogue?

confused


I'll have to admit that I've not played this game since last year due to other things coming up and I'm waiting for the next patch due out within hopefully the next few weeks to do another playthrough. But I will agree with you. I played as a rogue the first time through the game but then when I found out that not just rogues could open locks and disarm traps it made the appeal of playing a rogue less appealing in this game. And believe meI love playing either a rogue, an assassin, or dual classing a rogue/assassin. But it lost its appeal in BG III. I for one hope that they change this making it to where only rogues can open locks and disarm traps. Until then I'll stick with my female Elven Ranger knight hopefully, they finally fixed the dual weapon feat where you get a +1 now a +2 to AC and some of the weapon's bonuses that weren't working before and I'll be happy.

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Originally Posted by DragonMaster69
I for one hope that they change this making it to where only rogues can open locks and disarm traps. Until then I'll stick with my female Elven Ranger knight hopefully, they finally fixed the dual weapon feat where you get a +1 now a +2 to AC and some of the weapon's bonuses that weren't working before and I'll be happy.

Oh no, they will not do that and rightly so. Skill checks aren't hard-locked behind classes in 5E and it will remain that way. Rogues are glass cannon skill monkeys in 5e. Larian still has a lot of work to do to get Rogues working right.

Last edited by dreambled; 30/07/21 09:18 PM.
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In order for rogue to be where I want it to be, means a lot of effort has to go into the non-combat part of the game. Tricks and puzzles, traps, intrigue, all that stuff. I create rogues for shenanigans not combat. That said, the two subclasses of rogue I most want are both Xanathar rogues (Inquisitive and Mastermind) so not likely to happen.

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Originally Posted by Thrythlind
In order for rogue to be where I want it to be, means a lot of effort has to go into the non-combat part of the game. Tricks and puzzles, traps, intrigue, all that stuff. I create rogues for shenanigans not combat. That said, the two subclasses of rogue I most want are both Xanathar rogues (Inquisitive and Mastermind) so not likely to happen.

I can't help but wonder what they're going to do with Assassin, arguably the worst subclass depending on the type of game you're in.

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Originally Posted by dreambled
Originally Posted by DragonMaster69
I for one hope that they change this making it to where only rogues can open locks and disarm traps. Until then I'll stick with my female Elven Ranger knight hopefully, they finally fixed the dual weapon feat where you get a +1 now a +2 to AC and some of the weapon's bonuses that weren't working before and I'll be happy.

Oh no, they will not do that and rightly so. Skill checks aren't hard-locked behind classes in 5E and it will remain that way. Rogues are glass cannon skill monkeys in 5e. Larian still has a lot of work to do to get Rogues working right.


And this is why I doubt that I would play a rogue in this game because to me the rogue just doesn't work right at all.

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Originally Posted by dreambled
Originally Posted by Thrythlind
In order for rogue to be where I want it to be, means a lot of effort has to go into the non-combat part of the game. Tricks and puzzles, traps, intrigue, all that stuff. I create rogues for shenanigans not combat. That said, the two subclasses of rogue I most want are both Xanathar rogues (Inquisitive and Mastermind) so not likely to happen.

I can't help but wonder what they're going to do with Assassin, arguably the worst subclass depending on the type of game you're in.

Assassin has some serious infiltration power. But that requires an intrigue hefty game.

Like Lords of Waterdeep vs Manshoon levels of intrigue. It's powers hinge around some long-term plots which is REALLY weird for a core-PHB player option.

Mastermind and Inquisitive are both intrigue/investigative heavy too, but hinge sooo much less on long-term stuff.

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Originally Posted by DragonMaster69
Originally Posted by dreambled
Originally Posted by DragonMaster69
I for one hope that they change this making it to where only rogues can open locks and disarm traps. Until then I'll stick with my female Elven Ranger knight hopefully, they finally fixed the dual weapon feat where you get a +1 now a +2 to AC and some of the weapon's bonuses that weren't working before and I'll be happy.

Oh no, they will not do that and rightly so. Skill checks aren't hard-locked behind classes in 5E and it will remain that way. Rogues are glass cannon skill monkeys in 5e. Larian still has a lot of work to do to get Rogues working right.


And this is why I doubt that I would play a rogue in this game because to me the rogue just doesn't work right at all.
It's slowly moving in the right direction with the removal of the backstab advantage, and the adjustments to the bonus actions characters can do. Hopefully, if/when Larian introduces Bards it will come with Expertise as well.

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