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In fairness, I'm just not sure what tactical and clever strategies one can reasonably utilize at low levels aside from seeking out positional advantages. In BG1, the winning strategy was ranged weapons while having a lucky decoy max out AC and distract enemies. BG2 had higher levels and thus more options, but one very winning strategy was thief with boots of speed zipping in, stabbing something in the face, zipping past a corner, and hiding in shadows. Things with spells or abilities would fire their spell trigger, you wait that out, then zip back in. Maybe let them enjoy nuking whatever chaff a wand of monster summoning pulled in.

BG3 hardly seems less tactical than that.

And in terms of positional advantage, having elevation and cover of darkness while the enemies are fighting uphill and are illuminated or alternatively managing some form of choke point to create a fatal funnel is pretty much what springs to mind, isn't it? That or hiding the party and just kiting with a single character and then ending it in a nice ambush. Barrelmancy with local resources is also a thing, but it seems a bit too convenient, doesn't it?

There's also the problem that at present levels, most characters simply do not have any good way of dealing out damage to multiple enemies, which makes it somewhat difficult to get rid of chaff. And the chaff can and will be a problem for squishy low AC characters. And tanking with the tanky characters is non-trivial because enemies do not have to engage them. They can in fact just jump right past them or take that AoO swing and miss and step right into the face of squishy people. Or throw a vial of acid or an acid arrow or a fire arrow or a bomb flask.

And so it seems to me that it's actually fairly tactical and clever to take and hold the high ground while trying to control battlefield illumination. Doing what you can to break line of sight to ranged enemies during their turn. And using verticality and shoves to keep enemies away.

But what's perhaps a bit over the top is just how far the strong characters can shove people. A couple of meters seems reasonable, maybe a bit more if the strength difference is massive and the target is light, but after that the target should fall downwards not further outwards, regardless of verticality. At the moment, it seems like the horizontal speed is preserved all the way to the ground, which makes some shoves truly ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Pupito
How about flanking for advantage, something that is an optional rule for 5e (not the "I get advantage if I'm behind you" backstabbing BS from before, but proper 5e flanking option).
You mean that you should get Advantage on Meele attacks, when anyone else from your party is in meele range from that NPC?
That is certainly there, it was dicuised in "Patch 5 news" topic, since Larian removed "auto advantage when attacking from behind" but changed it with this. wink

Originally Posted by Pupito
I actually might want to try getting around behind them with some of my characters to trap them between the two positions hammer and anvil style. I can technically do that now if I'm so inclined, but because of high ground giving advantage for no real reason, it's more advantageous to just keep the whole party on top of the high ground and use the strength characters to push anyone who comes up back off while flinging arrows at them.
So ... your point is actualy not the fact that you want to "figure out" some clever tactics ... but that you want those tactics to be more effective.
Since as far as i know, there is nothing stoping you using what you described here. O_o

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
In fairness, I'm just not sure what tactical and clever strategies one can reasonably utilize at low levels aside from seeking out positional advantages.
That was kinda my point. smile

I maybe hoped a little that someone mentions that he would like to see option to "hide" behind objects (such as Barrels, Big Rocks, Tower Shield, or simply bigger teammember laugh etc.) ... wich would be negated by High Ground ... that is tactic i would certainly welcome!
But im not quite sure if that is even in Larian power to implement this properly. frown

Personaly i would like to see that any "tactical" decision we made will have some consequences ... or risks if you want.
Few examples:
You want high ground on the hill? No problem, but every single enemy will imediatly run as far from you as they can ...
You want high ground on some raft, or simmilar construct? Nah ... bad idea, one shoot here, one shoot there and construct is falling appart (note that i mentioned at least two attacks) ...
You want to destroy webs in Spider Queen lair, when she will be on them to get fall damage? Good choice, except spiderlings have incerased speed on them, and can get to you ... you have to decide, set a trap and risk ... or burn them to block spiderlings, but loose a trap.

That is kind of "tactics" i would like to see. smile

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
But what's perhaps a bit over the top is just how far the strong characters can shove people. A couple of meters seems reasonable, maybe a bit more if the strength difference is massive and the target is light, but after that the target should fall downwards not further outwards, regardless of verticality. At the moment, it seems like the horizontal speed is preserved all the way to the ground, which makes some shoves truly ridiculous.
Honestly i kinda like one suggestion that was here for Shove ...
Someone suggested that Shove should knock enemy prone on sucess ... and throw them away only for crittical hit, and even then only 1-2m ... that seem interesting, reasonable, and more than usefull for meele characters (at least to me)


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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What I would like to see in general, not necessarily in the next EA patch - is more information about Act 2.


Otherwise
° the ability to maybe speak or interact with the Minotaurs and or the & Spectators, so that it does not necessarily boarder in a fight
° maybe the possibility to enlist some members of the Flaming Fist as extra compagnions, so they would become "familiars" to some partymembers for the remaining Act I at least on the surface
° a way to pacify the Harpys and make them useful for something? ( even though they have low intelligence grin )
° tell Ethel she is sexy ( Lmao xD )



and far far more in the future

° to have patron's & deitys play a much bigger role for Warlocks & the faithful classes

I find it pretty nice for example that Wyll is practically an OP Warlock even though his abilitys do not reflect it.
But his patreon, Misora I assume - is a pretty medium classes fiend/Devil and seems to aid him even personally to some extend.
That is much more than just such a flying little "evil kid Devil" grin we can summon.

Makes me hope for something like summoning stronger beings as a custom made Warlock, possibly even your own patreon temporarily as well - who is also a Cambion or the like.
In general I find it very nice when there is a visual progress to the might of the spells one is focussing on.


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Originally Posted by KeinSklave
° maybe the possibility to enlist some members of the Flaming Fist as extra compagnions, so they would become "familiars" to some partymembers for the remaining Act I at least on the surface
Now when you mentioned them ...
I would really LOVE option to get at least one armor from either their corpses, or from their "future corpses" ( that were trying to unstuck those doors >:] ) .... and certainly i would love to being recognized as one of them, when i wear that armor. :3

Simmilar to druids, i would certainly not mind if they would drop (at least sometimes) what they were wearing ... including gloves, crowns (antlers? laugh ), etc. :P


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Ok so now that I finally tried patch 5... The gameplay has been really overhauled in patch 5. It's still far from being perfect IMO but it's way better than before.... so for patch 6 I'm waiting for new content.

I'd like for patch 6 :

- reactions
- D/N cycle
- new companions
- new items
- new quest / new area
- 1 or 2 new classes
- new spells
- a better UI
- no more chain

Last edited by Maximuuus; 09/08/21 01:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Pupito
How about flanking for advantage, something that is an optional rule for 5e (not the "I get advantage if I'm behind you" backstabbing BS from before, but proper 5e flanking option).
You mean that you should get Advantage on Meele attacks, when anyone else from your party is in meele range from that NPC?
That is certainly there, it was dicuised in "Patch 5 news" topic, since Larian removed "auto advantage when attacking from behind" but changed it with this. wink

No, I mean the way it should actually be implemented. You have to be on opposing sides of the enemy, directly across from each other with the enemy in between you if I remember the rules correctly. Not just "two party members anywhere on one enemy".

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@ Ragnarok

I'm not sure outright nerfing the encounters (or creating more risk, if you will) is really making things more tactical. It seems to me that it just makes it more likely that you'll avoid the hassle and grind it out on a stable footing, wait for the AI to take a "tactical" risk, and then blast the rafters or what have you. And I'm not sure that really would be an improvement. There's not a whole lot of tactics in trying to weather the storm and winning by attrition unless the AI does something silly that lets you speed things up. It's more passive and defensive, and having to rely on that all the time would probably be less satisfying than what we currently have. At least for some people.

In terms of shoving, I think it gets nerfed too far if enemies just go prone on position, as it would leave your position infiltrated. Your ranged characters probably need to move away to gain distance for shooting or use much weaker melee attacks. Essentially, you've lost control over the space and taking it back will mean a straight up fight, which is probably a tactical advantage for the AI. If we could do serious area denial effects to cordon off areas and maintain positional control that way then it would matter less. If tanks could focus aggro then it would matter less. But neither is possible at the moment. Generally speaking, what we have is a mild AI dislike of messy surfaces and the ability to shove enemies around a bit.

Rather than taking out our ability to move enemies (and their ability to move us), I'd rather see the AI starting to take cover, break direct LOS to make it harder to attack them from distance, and maybe even worry a little bit about ledges. Right now the AI will happily action surge double dash just to stand out in the open, right near a ledge. Next turn, misty step way up high and stand right near a ledge. It's like they're almost begging for a little nudge and it just wouldn't feel right to deny them.

In my admittedly limited experience, I am finding it very useful fairly regularly to hide most of the party and just have one character start a fight, giving me control over enemy aggro and largely directing their movement. They can't kill Mr Squishy when he's not in the fight, and then he'll have all the time in the world to join the fight at just the right time. I do not think this is entirely as it should be, but it is fairly reliable in keeping the party safe.

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Originally Posted by ArvGuy
I'm not sure outright nerfing the encounters (or creating more risk, if you will) is really making things more tactical.
Realy? O_o
Maybe i expressed myself poorly, but im a chess player (not so good one tho) and it allways seemed to me, that whole "tactic" approach is just concidering risks and potential gains from as many moves as you could ...
And pick the best.

As long as there is single approach that gives you all benefits, but none risk ... is there even space for talking about taktics? :-/

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
It seems to me that it just makes it more likely that you'll avoid the hassle and grind it out on a stable footing, wait for the AI to take a "tactical" risk, and then blast the rafters or what have you. And I'm not sure that really would be an improvement.
Well, not really ... that would be description of something that is curently happening. laugh
For examle in goblin's camp gate.

Anyway that was just example.
I just feels like there should be some "risk" that your adwantage will turn on you.
Like i dunno ... if you get knocked prone (by grease spell or bottle for example) on "raft" there should be small chance (for example if you roll nat 1 on saving throw) that you will fall down instead.

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
There's not a whole lot of tactics in trying to weather the storm and winning by attrition unless the AI does something silly that lets you speed things up. It's more passive and defensive, and having to rely on that all the time would probably be less satisfying than what we currently have. At least for some people.
I dont say its aplicable every time ...
For example in druid grove, Goblins dont have much other chances than simply charge as mindless maniacs ... especialy if you allready know the place and start it on the hill. laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
In terms of shoving, I think it gets nerfed too far if enemies just go prone on position, as it would leave your position infiltrated. Your ranged characters probably need to move away to gain distance for shooting or use much weaker melee attacks. Essentially, you've lost control over the space and taking it back will mean a straight up fight, which is probably a tactical advantage for the AI. If we could do serious area denial effects to cordon off areas and maintain positional control that way then it would matter less. If tanks could focus aggro then it would matter less. But neither is possible at the moment. Generally speaking, what we have is a mild AI dislike of messy surfaces and the ability to shove enemies around a bit.
This is simply not right ... you forget that you still have Throw option ...
And i honestly believe that both Throw and Shove should be effective when used by High Str character only. O_o

It would also be appreciated if enemies could use them on us aswell ...

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Rather than taking out our ability to move enemies (and their ability to move us), I'd rather see the AI starting to take cover, break direct LOS to make it harder to attack them from distance, and maybe even worry a little bit about ledges. Right now the AI will happily action surge double dash just to stand out in the open, right near a ledge. Next turn, misty step way up high and stand right near a ledge. It's like they're almost begging for a little nudge and it just wouldn't feel right to deny them.
Yeah, better AI is allways better. laugh
It have that in its name. laugh

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
In my admittedly limited experience, I am finding it very useful fairly regularly to hide most of the party and just have one character start a fight, giving me control over enemy aggro and largely directing their movement. They can't kill Mr Squishy when he's not in the fight, and then he'll have all the time in the world to join the fight at just the right time. I do not think this is entirely as it should be, but it is fairly reliable in keeping the party safe.
It depends on where Mr. Squishy is. smile
I use this tactics sometimes too ... and as long as "hidden" character is standing from the other side of building, or place ... pesonaly i find it acceptable. :P


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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I reckon that there certainly are more tactics than just climbing onto a hill. You can spread out, you can rush in, you can kite. You can ambush. You can set up surfaces. You can have some fun with summoning spells. You can even block an entrance off with flaming sphere, if you feel so inclined. It's just that right now climbing up on the hill works and most of the others aren't remotely as effective. What I wouldn't want is that nothing feels "effective", to the point where we might as well just not bother and just rush into a grind to get it over with.

That said, I do agree that options shouldn't be guaranteed to work 100% of the time nor be completely safe, and I reckon that Larian is feeling that way too. Take the three ogres. Stand the wrong place and they'll kill the support beam, then you fall down. A whole bunch of enemies have things to throw at you. Those gobbos have a few AoE arrows.

These things just need to be taken a little bit further. Wouldn't it be sort of hilarious if at least some of the enemies knew that a grease bottle before a fire arrow meant boom? Wouldn't it be sort of hilarious if one had just found that sweet camping spot up high and then grease, fire, boom, and suddenly it's raining adventurers? Not every single encounter, but just once or twice, to keep it real.

As far as throw, I really don't think we should be able to do that against anyone or anything that isn't both light, small, and at a massive strength disadvantage. Laezel throwing a kobold is probably okay, but throwing around anything bigger or stronger should be a monk-only kung fu thing. I really don't think throw should be a solution to maintaining the integrity of your position.

And as for shove, the AI can absolutely do that against the player. First time I did the bandits at the temple, I came at them from up high, because of course, and then the dwarf rushed up like a madman and shoved Laezel down below. So she rushed all the way around and then the furry little bugger shoved my warlock down as well. Not the biggest fall, but I was not expecting it at all. I've seen a lot of other enemies do shoves since then, but they do not seem to focus on pushing towards a vertical drop the way a player would.

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I don't know if they will do it, but... bring the other companions? I'm pretty sure they'll show still on Act 1, and I'm really interested in meeting them. Other than that, maybe lvl 5 as well?

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Originally Posted by ArvGuy
As far as throw, I really don't think we should be able to do that against anyone or anything that isn't both light, small, and at a massive strength disadvantage. Laezel throwing a kobold is probably okay, but throwing around anything bigger or stronger should be a monk-only kung fu thing. I really don't think throw should be a solution to maintaining the integrity of your position.
Well, throw is actualy just matter of few first levels (if you ask me) ...
Once you reach 2 (or 3? not sure right now) you get many other interesting toys ... thunderwave, pushing attack, repeling blast ... and ofcourse, there still are arrows of roaring thunder, or void buld. smile

To put it simply ...
I just feel like the game provides more than enough ways to keep your raft clear while you are unleashing havoc. laugh ... So you can easily sacrifice shove. wink :P

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 09/08/21 06:44 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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As someone who's approximately a thousand percent more about story over combat, I do hope some scalable difficulty makes its way in sooner than later. It's been a year and I still can't say I enjoy the game all that much as I don't get far before the combat frustrates me into playing something else...

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Paladin. That is all.

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I hope in patch 6 Larian will make Minthara Great Again. (as before the fifth patch)
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Please don't hit me or so for writing this,


but i personally would love to see a possible "Release-Date" of the finished Game - > and be it in like 2024 or 2025 or later. biggrin [Linked Image]

Yes i am lazy and "IF" a "about-Release Date" is announced somewhere or someplace, i gloriously managed to miss it. [Linked Image from e.deviantart.net]

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Related to the comment above, forgive me if I change the topic of this discussion to... WHEN do you hope to see patch 6?

And the answer for that is yesterday. Looking forward to my 10-ish new playthroughs smile.

Last edited by sheffie01; 10/08/21 07:52 PM. Reason: tone
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Surely not sooner than by end of this month ...
More like the next one.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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I hope for a couple of days before september 2nd, cause then i could play the patch and then switch to the new pathfinder game smile

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I would like to return to original topic for a while ...
And say that another thing i really, REALLY, and once more really hope in Patch 6 ... is casting in conversations.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Optional Party Size increase.......4 is not enough for me.

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