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I like the new Minthara, she fits the chosen of the Absolute much better. She is not following the Spider Queen anymore anymore and so she should neither act like she is still worships the Spider queen, nor look like a Lolth-sworn drow priestess. She has left that life for good; it's not like Lolth is a goddess of forgivness and would welcome her back. Considering that other "blessed by the Absolute" that you meet so far are priestess Gut, Drog Ragzlin, that one owlbear guy and the gnoll leader, it's clear that the Absolute doesn't care for looks. They are a violent cult looking for destruction, not seducing new members into their flock.

The only thing I don't like is Minthara's glitter make up, it looks weird in cutscenes.

edit: A bit off topic, but I'd like it if PC clerics and paladins would get deity-based armor, like Shadowheart, so that they look the part.

Last edited by ash elemental; 08/08/21 06:37 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
I've been wondering if her face has been changed other than hair and makeup alterations and coloring; it's honestly hard for me to tell; but it does seem like it if anyone knows please point it out to me; I've been scrutinizing images for a long time now trying to contrast the differences and I would like to list them. I should have taken more screenshots of her previous appearance when I had the chance; maybe I can revert the game with an earlier patch using steamdb.info; it would be nice if I could see exactly what changed.
I puzzled me aswell ... and i think i managed to find the perfect opourtunity to create comparsion. smile

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Source of Old Minthara model: 1:08

Source of New Minthara model: 0:52


Anyway, it seems to me like the facial structures was not alterned at all ...
Its indeed just the hair, makeup, and the presence of source of light certainly change the final outcome a bit too. :-/
Even her ears was so big back then. laugh

//Edit:
Maybe that is only my imagination ...
But the contrary to common expression around here, when you look at her shoulders she actualy was a little more masculine on previous model ... she certainly look a lot thiner now. O_o

//Edit2:
Just the funny detail i just noticed ... do you see that her new hair, have "kinda" spider-shape? laugh
Im affraid i will never be able to unsee it now. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 08/08/21 08:23 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

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Her look is not important to me at all, but I liked the first model more than the new one.

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Her stock ring mail is a bigger problem. She needs a menacing Drow armor with Absolute robes over them. She looks tougher in the new hair so it's good.

This kind of debate is inevitable when they release an unfinished character model and change it 10 months later. I would still respect their vision of the character and let them finish it before demanding they revert their designs to the placeholder ones.

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The previous look was better for me.

The main issue I see with the new look is the choice of the make-up which is a bit too flashy.

She could also deserves a more caracteristic outfit smile

Anyway, it remains a minor point for me.


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Originally Posted by 1varangian
This kind of debate is inevitable when they release an unfinished character model and change it 10 months later. I would still respect their vision of the character and let them finish it before demanding they revert their designs to the placeholder ones.
It would be much easier on us, if we actualy know what model is concidered finished and wich they will work on futher ...
[sarcasm]I dunno ... something like creating "PLACEHOLDER" tatoo that will those NPC have with huge green letters on forehead.[/sarcasm] laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
I've been wondering if her face has been changed other than hair and makeup alterations and coloring; it's honestly hard for me to tell; but it does seem like it if anyone knows please point it out to me; I've been scrutinizing images for a long time now trying to contrast the differences and I would like to list them. I should have taken more screenshots of her previous appearance when I had the chance; maybe I can revert the game with an earlier patch using steamdb.info; it would be nice if I could see exactly what changed.
I puzzled me aswell ... and i think i managed to find the perfect opourtunity to create comparsion. smile

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Source of Old Minthara model: 1:08

Source of New Minthara model: 0:52


Anyway, it seems to me like the facial structures was not alterned at all ...
Its indeed just the hair, makeup, and the presence of source of light certainly change the final outcome a bit too. :-/
Even her ears was so big back then. laugh

//Edit:
Maybe that is only my imagination ...
But the contrary to common expression around here, when you look at her shoulders she actualy was a little more masculine on previous model ... she certainly look a lot thiner now. O_o

//Edit2:
Just the funny detail i just noticed ... do you see that her new hair, have "kinda" spider-shape? laugh
Im affraid i will never be able to unsee it now. laugh

Thank you this really helps me; so if I figure out how to change her hair and her eyeshadow; I'll be in a good situation.

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Seems like it smile

//Edit:
Chubblot is doing that for quite some time now ... maybe he will create some tutorial video. O_o

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 08/08/21 11:46 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

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Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by sinogy
You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.

Um, what are you on about? Since when were drow into seducing the surface races? You do realize that most, if not all, of the surface races basically regard them as evil or at least not to be trusted, and the drow are all about just killing or enslaving the surface races, right? Nothing about them or their culture, goddess, society, or lore, leans into them being seductresses. They aren't succubi. They are about destroying or enslaving the surface races, so of course she would be wearing actual armor, not a chainmail bikini. I don't find her quite as attractive as she was before either, but that's fine, not every female character has to be a supermodel or something, and once again the drow aren't about selective breeding and seduction but war and conquest so being traditionally attractive doesn't really matter to them, much less to humans and other surface races.


Here,

" According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Have a nice day with your wrong assumptions.



Here is a bonus to end your whole career,

"Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Last edited by sinogy; 08/08/21 01:22 PM.
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Ok. I was avoiding this thread long enough. Do you guys realise that Minthara is a "failure" for a Drow?
If you pretend that you're Lolth in front of her spiders they will tell you that she lost "your" ways.
If you take a look into her mind after sleeping with her you'll find out that she's afraid of something.
If you convince her not to kill you, she will tell you to met a person at her service, someone who got punished by Lolth. And Minthara talks about him with compassion.
Even more she has house Baenre mark as a tatoo. Maybe Larian made somewhat a mistake here, but normally that would tell that she's not a member of the house, but their property - a slave.

Soo... I said before already that the current hairdo suits her better and I'm standing by that... it suits her as a character, not a candy for an eye. She's fallen, probably humiliated, probably striped of all dignity she had once as a drow cleric. She probably had a moment like this at some point:
[Linked Image from cdn.vox-cdn.com]
But more likely not voluntary. And then she has this hairdo in a quite strict style now comparing to the messy one she had in previous patches. And she is a strict harsh person. That detail can be seen as her way to show that she's going to fight back, that she took this position of more of a fighter than a woman. Maybe one day after all the fighting will be done she'll grow her hair to feet, but now she's just keeping it in order.

I wouldn't vote against giving her better and more feminine face, she is an elf and a drow after all. Slightly tilted bigger eyes, slightly plumper lips, more subtle or stylish make up. But the hairdo looks more like a part of her story for me, than a choice of style and it's more suitable now than before.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Ok. I was avoiding this thread long enough. Do you guys realise that Minthara is a "failure" for a Drow?
If you pretend that you're Lolth in front of her spiders they will tell you that she lost "your" ways.
If you take a look into her mind after sleeping with her you'll find out that she's afraid of something.
If you convince her not to kill you, she will tell you to met a person at her service, someone who got punished by Lolth. And Minthara talks about him with compassion.
Even more she has house Baenre mark as a tatoo. Maybe Larian made somewhat a mistake here, but normally that would tell that she's not a member of the house, but their property - a slave.

Soo... I said before already that the current hairdo suits her better and I'm standing by that... it suits her as a character, not a candy for an eye. She's fallen, probably humiliated, probably striped of all dignity she had once as a drow cleric. She probably had a moment like this at some point:
[Linked Image from cdn.vox-cdn.com]
But more likely not voluntary. And then she has this hairdo in a quite strict style now comparing to the messy one she had in previous patches. And she is a strict harsh person. That detail can be seen as her way to show that she's going to fight back, that she took this position of more of a fighter than a woman. Maybe one day after all the fighting will be done she'll grow her hair to feet, but now she's just keeping it in order.

I wouldn't vote against giving her better and more feminine face, she is an elf and a drow after all. Slightly tilted bigger eyes, slightly plumper lips, more subtle or stylish make up. But the hairdo looks more like a part of her story for me, than a choice of style and it's more suitable now than before.

+1

It is made very clear Minthara is not a fan of Loth and so her not giving a damn about having long hair like a typical female Drow fits like a glove. Her personality is very aggressive and so once again, short hair that does not get in the way just fits her.

I am not saying she looks perfect and there can be no changes, but attributing short hair to some agenda is hilariously sad.

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+1 to Zellin's intelligent and well thought out answer as well!

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Originally Posted by sinogy
<snap>

Try to re-read and comprehend my post for real.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by sinogy
<snap>

Try to re-read and comprehend my post for real.


Yeah yeah you are right on I had the wrong interpretation of your comment. That's why I deleted my post.

Still tho, too many maybes are needed to be made by players. Instead, the creator should have filled the story holes. It is %100 Larian's fault.

Last edited by sinogy; 08/08/21 02:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zellin
Ok. I was avoiding this thread long enough. Do you guys realise that Minthara is a "failure" for a Drow?


Soo... I said before already that the current hairdo suits her better and I'm standing by that... it suits her as a character, not a candy for an eye. She's fallen, probably humiliated, probably striped of all dignity she had once as a drow cleric. She probably had a moment like this at some point:
[Linked Image from cdn.vox-cdn.com]
But more likely not voluntary. And then she has this hairdo in a quite strict style now comparing to the messy one she had in previous patches. And she is a strict harsh person. That detail can be seen as her way to show that she's going to fight back, that she took this position of more of a fighter than a woman. Maybe one day after all the fighting will be done she'll grow her hair to feet, but now she's just keeping it in order.

This is also what I was thinking, but I wouldn't use the word failure. I would say she became disillusioned and left in disgust, maybe self-exiled and in her wanderings she found or was found by the absolute and converted.

I think the Absolute, like many cults, finds the members of society or even entire societies that are outcasts, the rejected, the abandoned. There can be great strength in a pariah, especially if they survive.

Her ritualistically cutting her hair may be part of her story arc that most players won't initially see/read/experience because they will follow a path-polished goody two-shoes arc that will result in Minthara's death.

The greatest villains are ones we can see ourselves in, especially when you know the backstory.


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Originally Posted by Zellin
Ok. I was avoiding this thread long enough. Do you guys realise that Minthara is a "failure" for a Drow?
If you pretend that you're Lolth in front of her spiders they will tell you that she lost "your" ways.
If you take a look into her mind after sleeping with her you'll find out that she's afraid of something.
If you convince her not to kill you, she will tell you to met a person at her service, someone who got punished by Lolth. And Minthara talks about him with compassion.
Even more she has house Baenre mark as a tatoo. Maybe Larian made somewhat a mistake here, but normally that would tell that she's not a member of the house, but their property - a slave.

Soo... I said before already that the current hairdo suits her better and I'm standing by that... it suits her as a character, not a candy for an eye. She's fallen, probably humiliated, probably striped of all dignity she had once as a drow cleric. She probably had a moment like this at some point:
[Linked Image from cdn.vox-cdn.com]
But more likely not voluntary. And then she has this hairdo in a quite strict style now comparing to the messy one she had in previous patches. And she is a strict harsh person. That detail can be seen as her way to show that she's going to fight back, that she took this position of more of a fighter than a woman. Maybe one day after all the fighting will be done she'll grow her hair to feet, but now she's just keeping it in order.

I wouldn't vote against giving her better and more feminine face, she is an elf and a drow after all. Slightly tilted bigger eyes, slightly plumper lips, more subtle or stylish make up. But the hairdo looks more like a part of her story for me, than a choice of style and it's more suitable now than before.

It's not just guys that are part of the pre patch 5 Minthara Fan club; most players who like the first iteration do so purely out of preference and that has a lot to due with the fact that they romanced and interacted with her first iteration for how long has it been ten months now?; I suppose it's been that long.

Minthara's hair has never actually been long; it was medium length ruffled hair; so both iterations make sense in regard to her not abiding by the long haired aspect of Drow culture; though it is somewhat interesting that she keeps spiders which are servants of Lolth close at hand and she also shows no shortage of Drow supremacist views; if anything she flaunts her racial pride in my opinion; some players like her present iteration and others like her earlier iteration; it's a matter of preference.

Plenty of players loved Minthara's first iteration and many of those same individuals are saying that it's not lore friendly now; that wasn't the case before patch 5; a lot of players who were talking about her first iteration noted how ruffled and unkempt her hair was and how it fit her circumstances and demeanor; furthermore her current very copious silver eyeshadow is very peculiar for someone who apparently is being presented with a rough exterior and makes very little sense to some people; which is another reason why some players prefer her first iteration. The differences between her iterations exist in hair and makeup; her face is pretty good in my opinion.

The remedy for the players' different preferences has to be modded appearances; we can make different iterations of Minthara as well as other characters and share them; most likely on nexus mods; that way the pre patch 5 Minthara fan club and the patch 5 Minthara fan club can both be satisfied and get the experiences that they want.

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Originally Posted by sinogy
Still tho, too many maybes are needed to be made by players. Instead, the creator should have filled the story holes. It is %100 Larian's fault.
Ok. But we do not have the whole game on our hands yet. You can't fill all the story holes in 1st act, you'll leave nothing for the rest.
We do not even have the whole 1st act, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
It's not just guys that are part of the pre patch 5 Minthara Fan club; most players who like the first iteration do so purely out of preference and that has a lot to due with the fact that they romanced and interacted with her first iteration for how long has it been ten months now?; I suppose it's been that long.

Minthara's hair has never actually been long; it was medium length ruffled hair; so both iterations make sense in regard to her not abiding by the long haired aspect of Drow culture; though it is somewhat interesting that she keeps spiders which are servants of Lolth close at hand and she also shows no shortage of Drow supremacist views; if anything she flaunts her racial pride in my opinion; some players like her present iteration and others like her earlier iteration; it's a matter of preference.

Plenty of players loved Minthara's first iteration and many of those same individuals are saying that it's not lore friendly now; that wasn't the case before patch 5; a lot of players who were talking about her first iteration noted how ruffled and unkempt her hair was and how it fit her circumstances and demeanor; furthermore her current very copious silver eyeshadow is very peculiar for someone who apparently is being presented with a rough exterior and makes very little sense to some people; which is another reason why some players prefer her first iteration. The differences between her iterations exist in hair and makeup; her face is pretty good in my opinion.

The remedy for the players' different preferences has to be modded appearances; we can make different iterations of Minthara as well as other characters and share them; most likely on nexus mods; that way the pre patch 5 Minthara fan club and the patch 5 Minthara fan club can both be satisfied and get the experiences that they want.
The previous hair was short as well, yes. But for me It just seemed too messy for HER hairstyle. She maybe not obsessed with her looks, but she doesn't strike me as someone who would allow the underlings to see her in a bad shape. So now we at least have something that is both short and keept in order.
I'm seeing her face as not perfect from the start and totally agree with criticism on the new make up. So I still hope that Larian will improve elves appreances in general and her appearance in particular.
With all respect to modding community I prefer my RPGs vanilla and if I feel like I can't enjoy it in vanilla then I see it as an oversight on developers side.

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Originally Posted by sinogy
Here,

" According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Have a nice day with your wrong assumptions.



Here is a bonus to end your whole career,

"Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)
I was trying to track down your quotes but not having much luck. First because I was looking at 5E sources. Then I realised that you're quoting a 2003 book and 2003 must of course be 3E. Right.

So then I find that darn book and guess what? It says nothing about selective breeding nor does it quote any gobbo about how the beautiful Drow can get away with things. It simply is not in that particular book, and given the amount of times you've tried quoting it for those things, we're well past accidental misquote.

But where does that stuff come from, then? Because surely you didn't make it up, right? Turns out it comes from a wiki fansite.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

Let's have the whole bit, not just the little lines you've cut away.

In many ways, the drow resembled other elves[23] or eladrin.[24] Their bodies were wiry and athletic,[23] while their faces were chiseled and attractive,[24] though they were shorter and thinner than other elven sub-races.[9][25][10] Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,[9] the drow (especially nobles)[25] looked attractive[24] even in comparison to other elven subraces.[26] Though their alluring appearance could be used for seduction, it was more often utilized to instill fear.[24] According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance.[27]

All those bracketed numbers are references and we can thus assume that whomever wrote this section of the Wiki took inspiration from the works mentioned in those references. But in order to check it and actually have confidence in the accuracy of this summary, we have to backtrack to the source. Given the amount of references, that's a fair bit of work. Since you've gotten your quotes so catastrophically wrong, I reckon we can assume that didn't bother doing that at all.

Personally, I was extremely curious what that gobbo reference was about, so I clicked the link. Yes, this is a wiki, and there's a link in the gobbo-name, taking us to a page dedicated to that particular gobbo, where we even get the context of the quote. Turns out, he was talking to someone called Drizz't and they were talking about prejudice, and then the gobbo said that Drizz't had it easier because he was pretty. As in, he didn't have the face of a gobbo. That's literally all the Drow beauty implied by what Nojheim said.

Drow are prettier than gobbos, shocking news at 11! Not really your fault that Mr Wiki-writer messed up, but he did mess up by including this little tidbit as suggestive of Drow being particularly pretty. And you walked right into it. You didn't even have to find the source book here, all you had to do was click on a link.

I was also curious about that selective "breeding for pretty for several generations" thing too, because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You cannot do selective breeding for "several generations" and really hope to have a whole lot of impact on anything and the time scale of the setting means that if it's just for some generations then the effect would get watered out fairly quickly afterwards. Turns out that the wiki references not Races of Faerun, like you've been claiming, but rather the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd Edition, page 13.

Here's what the campaign setting actually says on page 13:
Racial Abilities: Drow have all the elven racial traits listed given in Chapter 2 of the Player’s Handbook except as follows:
• +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. The drow have ruthlessly selected for agility, intelligence, and force of personality over generations.


What's that? Force of personality? That does not sound much like selectively breeding for attractiveness, does it now?

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This is the best post on the internet


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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