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am i crazy? is there anything different about her other than her hairstyle?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
am i crazy? is there anything different about her other than her hairstyle?

You are not crazy.

They gave her shorter hair (which is now unique and not the same hairstyle as other npcs), new eyeshadow, and a different outfit. Her face is exactly the same middle~aged grumpy lady face it has always been.

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Me and many guys from the Minthara fan club are very upset that Larian decided to completely change Minthara s appearance. Please return everything as it was before patch 5. Thanks.

I agree i liked her Appearance more before Patch 5. More feminine looking, so to say.
But i also like her now more "Rogue-looking" Appearance. Like some Outcast who casts Comfort aside to make it better through the harsh Wilderness and so on.

However,
if there "should" be an Option in the finished Game that People "could DECIDE" which Look they want for which Character,

or if People could later on "mod" that the she looks like before -> i would have nothing against that.

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After Zellin's input, I REALLY like her new look better. It fits more. She's right. Minthara is not there to be some sexy, messy boy toy. She's evil, aggressive, and kinda insane. I like her best of all the villains in EA, and I wouldn't want them to make her some seductress flaunting her feminine bits.

She is a cleric of the Absolute, wholly devoted and willing to do anything for her new goddess.

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Can you imagine? "omg, i need to make sure my hair is long and styled and i should put on my 6 inch heels and fishnets for the absolute when i'm leading this goblin army against the druids!"

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Can you imagine? "omg, i need to make sure my hair is long and styled and i should put on my 6 inch heels and fishnets for the absolute when i'm leading this goblin army against the druids!"

Her hair was never long; it was medium length to short length and her attire is still a ringmail; some players just have a preference for Minthara's first iteration and a few months ago I don't remember anyone claiming that pre patch 5 Minthara was at all sexualized.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Her look is not important to me at all, but I liked the first model more than the new one.
Maybe, but there are players for whom Minthara's hairstyle and appearance, the color of the chain mail is the MAIN thing in the game ;D
Larian needs to be made so that everyone likes. Possibly in-game customization choices so players can vote on an option.
Perhaps a special development team meeting is needed regarding the hairstyle and color of the armor. Blue is more beautiful, red emphasizes her aggression

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She looks like a young dude, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
She looks like a young dude, to be honest.

I see that too; I can't help but agree.

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Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by sinogy
You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.

Um, what are you on about? Since when were drow into seducing the surface races? You do realize that most, if not all, of the surface races basically regard them as evil or at least not to be trusted, and the drow are all about just killing or enslaving the surface races, right? Nothing about them or their culture, goddess, society, or lore, leans into them being seductresses. They aren't succubi. They are about destroying or enslaving the surface races, so of course she would be wearing actual armor, not a chainmail bikini. I don't find her quite as attractive as she was before either, but that's fine, not every female character has to be a supermodel or something, and once again the drow aren't about selective breeding and seduction but war and conquest so being traditionally attractive doesn't really matter to them, much less to humans and other surface races.


Here,

" According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Have a nice day with your wrong assumptions.



Here is a bonus to end your whole career,

"Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)
You quoted something saying that the beauty standards of the surface races make them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance (something that doesn't come across at all in any of the books or material) not that they "were selectively bred to seduce surface races". Congrats, not only did you take two unrelated quotes and smash them together in some attempt to make it look like you were correct in assuming they were selectively bred for seducing surface races, but you were an asshole while doing it. Good job. This is why your thread is falling apart by the way, maybe try responding with some actual respect and openness for discussion instead of just knee jerk being a dick.

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Sometimes it blows my mind how much we lose it on these threads. It's not all that.

1. If Minthara is the norm Drow of the game, and in Act 2 we reach Moonrise and see a ton of Drow with her short hair look, and such, it STILL wouldn't make a difference. They are ALL cultists of the Absolute and will do whatever the Absolute wants. If the Absolute wants them all to paint their faces with pink pokadots, that's what they're gonna do. It doesn't matter WHAT normal Drow society does. Absolute (ahem Larian ahem) don't care.

2. I get it that people like her previous look better. It's a matter of opinion. That's fine. I got no problems with someone who says they liked the other Minthara better. I think new fits better, but I'm not opposed to original coming back or them trying yet another look. This shouldn't make or break the game, but for some it might. Imagine someone taking a beloved character like Darth Vader and changing his whole look. That's what this is for some people. The new look just feels wrong to them.

3. Whether a Drow is typically long hair or not, wears makeup, etc., absolutely nothing says they ALL have to be that way. In fact, D&D has always encouraged creating your own, unique characters. Want a Drow with short hair Go ahead. Just because someone somewhere created a lore that Drow typically have long hair and dress seductively doesn't mean that ALL Drow everywhere throughout all time MUST have long hair and dress like prostitutes. They don't have to appear feminine. They don't have to be a certain way at all.

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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Larian needs to be made so that everyone likes.
That's ridiculous. There is always someone who won't like something.

Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Possibly in-game customization choices so players can vote on an option.
There is a better and more sensible way: modding! There is always some desire to "cute up" NPCs.

Last edited by Wormerine; 09/08/21 12:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by sinogy
Originally Posted by Pupito
Originally Posted by sinogy
You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.

Um, what are you on about? Since when were drow into seducing the surface races? You do realize that most, if not all, of the surface races basically regard them as evil or at least not to be trusted, and the drow are all about just killing or enslaving the surface races, right? Nothing about them or their culture, goddess, society, or lore, leans into them being seductresses. They aren't succubi. They are about destroying or enslaving the surface races, so of course she would be wearing actual armor, not a chainmail bikini. I don't find her quite as attractive as she was before either, but that's fine, not every female character has to be a supermodel or something, and once again the drow aren't about selective breeding and seduction but war and conquest so being traditionally attractive doesn't really matter to them, much less to humans and other surface races.


Here,

" According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Have a nice day with your wrong assumptions.



Here is a bonus to end your whole career,

"Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)
You quoted something saying that the beauty standards of the surface races make them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance (something that doesn't come across at all in any of the books or material) not that they "were selectively bred to seduce surface races". Congrats, not only did you take two unrelated quotes and smash them together in some attempt to make it look like you were correct in assuming they were selectively bred for seducing surface races, but you were an asshole while doing it. Good job. This is why your thread is falling apart by the way, maybe try responding with some actual respect and openness for discussion instead of just knee jerk being a dick.

" you were an asshole..." how sad. Well, sunshine, I don't care about your feelings. If you weren't distracted by your feelings maybe you would not have such wrong conclusions.

Anyway, the fact is Larian's visual design choices on Minthara as well as some other things are not parallel to the lore and they break immersion at least for some of us. Is it a big deal? Maybe, proly not. We'll see.

Last edited by sinogy; 09/08/21 02:44 PM.
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Oh Mintharas current looks break the immersion FOR ME absolutely 100% - this is not how "Drow" look like!

And if there is not at least a mention as to why Minthara would tolerate that her hair looks like that of a screeching Banshee now, I will not tolerate it.
BEFORE WAS GOOD, what we have now is a nightmare!
In all kinds of artworks, canon official one's and fanworks, Drow tend to show typical styles & characteristics.

Appart from their clothes style, they like to grow their vibrant elven heritage hair out, which stays rich & vigorous for centurys, down to the tips who might as well reach their ankles!

Elves are monsters of lifeforce and Drows are no exceptions!
Specially the Drow might feel additionally superior to 'pet-races' because of their long lives.
Everything that they can have, what others Races cannot have, they might enhance & support to the maximum.
One of that being their smooth, long hair!

Not that Mintharas hair looked that gorgeous or long to begin with.
But what we have now is a catastrophe and an insult!
And I smell the stench of real life, modern day political & ethical ideologies behind it.


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Originally Posted by sinogy
Well, sunshine, I don't care about your feelings.

You should. You've been suspended and warned multiple times before. Here on forth until the end of dawn, you will be respectful and polite towards other forum users. This is the last, and only warning I offer.

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I think they lack hair options and their character customization is too limited; and I'm almost certain Larian thinks that's not the case but when I compare their hairstyles to some Japanese RPGs there are no shortage of long hairstyles and NPCs with fantasy long elven-like hairstyles in those. There was a mod released not too long ago that perfectly fixed this problem using Larian's own resources called Tav's hair salon it works with the current patch, https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/213 it provides awesome long hairstyles, short and medium; Larian could of easily done the work of that mod. Even short and medium hairstyles seem limited to me and I think there should be far more variety in general; it seems they've been creating unique hairstyles for some major NPCs; but I really hope they add more options in general.

Minthara's hair was just medium length at most pre patch 5; and I do understand that she isn't supposed to be a typical Drow per se; that said what is the typical Drow going to look like in Baldur's Gate 3 how are they going to translate the high fantasy to the video game; I'm very interested as to what will be restricted to the game limitations or Larian's personal vision. Also Minthara's heavy silver eyeshadow from the posts I've seen; I haven't seen one comment of anyone who actually likes it; I have a strange story about that actually; I was playing BG3 with reshade and effects with the brightness cut down to low; I was in the goblin keep and I got to the scene with Minthara and her silver eyeshadow really sort of stood out in the dark which was not at all the case in pre patch 5 BG3; it's very superfluous for a person who apparently doesn't care about looking that feminine it would seem; I really would like to see her concept art; I want to know what Larian is basing their design in game on.

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I dunno, I got the game patch 5, and I must say, At first I personally didn't quite understand the appeal on her. She's ugly, like, ok, ppl have their tastes, but, nothing on her makes her visually appealing to me. And the way she talks and her voice. I was basically, just shut up, I'm gonna kill you now.

But then, I saw the video on yt, the scene and all, and I was like. Ohhh, now I see, horny ppl, makes sense. But, honestly, it's nice to see that they've made an option for those who like to play an evil route, and I must say, her route is one of the most evil I've seen in any game I've played so far. So, I'm curious to see how Larian will manage this route.

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Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Oh Mintharas current looks break the immersion FOR ME absolutely 100% - this is not how "Drow" look like!

And if there is not at least a mention as to why Minthara would tolerate that her hair looks like that of a screeching Banshee now, I will not tolerate it.
BEFORE WAS GOOD, what we have now is a nightmare!
In all kinds of artworks, canon official one's and fanworks, Drow tend to show typical styles & characteristics.

Appart from their clothes style, they like to grow their vibrant elven heritage hair out, which stays rich & vigorous for centurys, down to the tips who might as well reach their ankles!

Elves are monsters of lifeforce and Drows are no exceptions!
Specially the Drow might feel additionally superior to 'pet-races' because of their long lives.
Everything that they can have, what others Races cannot have, they might enhance & support to the maximum.
One of that being their smooth, long hair!

Not that Mintharas hair looked that gorgeous or long to begin with.
But what we have now is a catastrophe and an insult!
And I smell the stench of real life, modern day political & ethical ideologies behind it.

I can relate to that sentiment; due to the fact that the in game character design has to be based on concept art first and I do wonder which iteration is more faithful to Minthara's concept art; because if it is patch 5 then that's quite jarring to players who had a romance or a preference for pre patch 5 Minthara for what I believe is about a good couple months of playtime ; and if the pre patch 5 iteration of Minthara is more faithful to the concept art; it would raise the question as to why her hair length was changed to medium to very short. Could it be polictical?; I don't know, it could be that they intend for Minthara to be a more masculine woman to romance; perhaps to appeal to Lesbians maybe?; that's just my speculation; I have a strong feeling that no explanation at all will be provided about her appearance in game; because frankly I think BG3 doesn't actually have that many long hairstyles; it's going to be hard for them to express the variation that is present in high fantasy literature; they could but I have a feeling they won't and we'll just have their mixture of long, medium and short styles without any cultural context involved; I think DOS2 did a better job of making races unique in regard to hairs and armors.

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This is kinda crazy. I can't believe we're still discussing Minthara's hair and saying that she is Drow, therefore, her hair must be long and not cropped short because she's a Drow.

Any drow who falsely wears the colors or insignia of another House (except by the express permission from that House), or who deliberately alters his or her hairstyle or attire to appear as a rank different from his or her own (except by the express permission of the owning Matron), must die.

--From the chapter Daily Life in Menzoberranzan, page 14 in the 2nd edition Menzoberranzan Boxed Set.

Drow society also had a strict fashion code (which included rules about hairstyles) meant to allow easy identification of a drow's social station and House (if any). Any drow who committed identification litigations by wearing the wrong hair style, clothes, and/or drow house insignia was considered a criminal unless the House authorized the use of their color or insignia or if the matron mother expressedly permitted a drow to change their hair and attire to appear as a different rank. It was also illegal for non-drow to disguise themselves as a specific drow, a noble drow, or a member of a House outside of the one they belonged to.

From Jarlaxle Baenre's Wikipedia article:

"Jarlaxle's shaven head is a symbol of his place in Menzoberranzan. In a society where rank and position are indicated by hair style (e.g., male drow nobles all have haircuts specific to their houses), Jarlaxle has no hair to illustrate that he considers himself a houseless rogue."

Which is a cool detail. However, I'm having trouble finding what hairstyles are used to indicate what social rank in Menzoberranzan. All the examples I can recall are of male drow who specifically keep their hair short either because they're warriors who don't want to have their hair pulled by opponents or because they, like Jarlaxle, are making a deliberate statement about their place in drow society.

There are many things I could site out here about Drow culture and hairstyles and so forth, but it doesn't matter. Minthara is no longer a Drow in the Underdark societies under Lolth or any other. She belongs to the Absolute. Therefore, they can give her whatever appearance they want to. It doesn't require any other reasoning or excuse or story plot device. They don't need to create a cutscene to tell us why she has short hair or not. There is no other reason necessary other than, "She is Minthara, Cleric of the Absolute, an unknown Goddess-Wanna-Be who is doing everything She can to wipe out other gods and take their followers for herself. She is actually doing everything in Her power to snuff out the old traditions and usher in her own."

So it makes sense that Minthara will not conform to any society, even her old society. Yes, in her old society, if she cut her hair short, she might be thought of as a slave. Not in Minthara's new culture and society. In her new society, she is a Drow woman to respect and fear, and she leads a band of dumb goblins who all worship the ground she walks on. She can walk around with a completely shaved head, a mohawk with different colors in it, or whatever, and it won't matter. They'll still worship her and fear her because she's a boss, and she's a True Soul, and she's a Cleric of the Absolute, Chosen by the Chosen, to find the weapon.

Now, again, I say, whether you like the new look or the old, or you want something new and different, that's something we can talk about and give our opinions. All this other stuff about her new look not fitting her as a Drow and stuff, that seems a bit off topic and unimportant to whether they should or should not revert to her previous appearance.

I, personally, would maybe like to see something else. I don't really think either look is particularly awesome. I think they could make her look even better. I'm not looking for slut-zilla with boobs popping out or anything like that. I actually like that they kept her more tough looking and less skanky, like people tend to make Drow females look. However, she could benefit from yet another overhaul. I agree she could look more feminine, but that doesn't bother me if they don't. There are many women who don't necessarily burst forth with traditional feminine form. Why does Minthara have to be a busty female with curves and showing off her naughty bits to prove she's a woman?

No, I'm just wondering if they could make her look even creepier and more evil. That's more of what I care about with her. Again, to me, she's the most evil character of the 3 bosses. Therefore, I'd like to see her with more of a wicked appearance. I'm not even sure what that is, but her personality is straight up crazy.

I'm thinking something more like this: [Linked Image from pbs.twimg.com]

or maybe this except with more armor on and such (notice the short hair): [img]https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...er_square/sara-hum-splash.jpg?1537142496[/img]

I don't know. Just something more wicked looking and/or creepy.

Last edited by GM4Him; 09/08/21 06:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
This is kinda crazy. I can't believe we're still discussing Minthara's hair and saying that she is Drow, therefore, her hair must be long and not cropped short because she's a Drow.

Any drow who falsely wears the colors or insignia of another House (except by the express permission from that House), or who deliberately alters his or her hairstyle or attire to appear as a rank different from his or her own (except by the express permission of the owning Matron), must die.

--From the chapter Daily Life in Menzoberranzan, page 14 in the 2nd edition Menzoberranzan Boxed Set.

Drow society also had a strict fashion code (which included rules about hairstyles) meant to allow easy identification of a drow's social station and House (if any). Any drow who committed identification litigations by wearing the wrong hair style, clothes, and/or drow house insignia was considered a criminal unless the House authorized the use of their color or insignia or if the matron mother expressedly permitted a drow to change their hair and attire to appear as a different rank. It was also illegal for non-drow to disguise themselves as a specific drow, a noble drow, or a member of a House outside of the one they belonged to.

From Jarlaxle Baenre's Wikipedia article:

"Jarlaxle's shaven head is a symbol of his place in Menzoberranzan. In a society where rank and position are indicated by hair style (e.g., male drow nobles all have haircuts specific to their houses), Jarlaxle has no hair to illustrate that he considers himself a houseless rogue."

Which is a cool detail. However, I'm having trouble finding what hairstyles are used to indicate what social rank in Menzoberranzan. All the examples I can recall are of male drow who specifically keep their hair short either because they're warriors who don't want to have their hair pulled by opponents or because they, like Jarlaxle, are making a deliberate statement about their place in drow society.

There are many things I could site out here about Drow culture and hairstyles and so forth, but it doesn't matter. Minthara is no longer a Drow in the Underdark societies under Lolth or any other. She belongs to the Absolute. Therefore, they can give her whatever appearance they want to. It doesn't require any other reasoning or excuse or story plot device. They don't need to create a cutscene to tell us why she has short hair or not. There is no other reason necessary other than, "She is Minthara, Cleric of the Absolute, an unknown Goddess-Wanna-Be who is doing everything She can to wipe out other gods and take their followers for herself. She is actually doing everything in Her power to snuff out the old traditions and usher in her own."

So it makes sense that Minthara will not conform to any society, even her old society. Yes, in her old society, if she cut her hair short, she might be thought of as a slave. Not in Minthara's new culture and society. In her new society, she is a Drow woman to respect and fear, and she leads a band of dumb goblins who all worship the ground she walks on. She can walk around with a completely shaved head, a mohawk with different colors in it, or whatever, and it won't matter. They'll still worship her and fear her because she's a boss, and she's a True Soul, and she's a Cleric of the Absolute, Chosen by the Chosen, to find the weapon.

Now, again, I say, whether you like the new look or the old, or you want something new and different, that's something we can talk about and give our opinions. All this other stuff about her new look not fitting her as a Drow and stuff, that seems a bit off topic and unimportant to whether they should or should not revert to her previous appearance.

I, personally, would maybe like to see something else. I don't really think either look is particularly awesome. I think they could make her look even better. I'm not looking for slut-zilla with boobs popping out or anything like that. I actually like that they kept her more tough looking and less skanky, like people tend to make Drow females look. However, she could benefit from yet another overhaul. I agree she could look more feminine, but that doesn't bother me if they don't. There are many women who don't necessarily burst forth with traditional feminine form. Why does Minthara have to be a busty female with curves and showing off her naughty bits to prove she's a woman?

No, I'm just wondering if they could make her look even creepier and more evil. That's more of what I care about with her. Again, to me, she's the most evil character of the 3 bosses. Therefore, I'd like to see her with more of a wicked appearance. I'm not even sure what that is, but her personality is straight up crazy.

I'm thinking something more like this: [Linked Image from pbs.twimg.com]

or maybe this except with more armor on and such (notice the short hair): [img]https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/asset...er_square/sara-hum-splash.jpg?1537142496[/img]

I don't know. Just something more wicked looking and/or creepy.

Those designs look great I can only hope that the final product looks somewhat like those two and the style of attire also creates a different aesthetic effect than a generic ringmail.

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