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After looking at this image way to long, I think I spot a strong difference, aside from the make up.

I think the new version has more pronounced wrinkles on her forhead and even the wrinkels next to the mouth seem more pronounced.
Also, the thinner eyebrows also help.
That, together with the brighter skin, makes her look older to me. For whatever reason I seem to associate lighter skin with higher age when it comes to dark elves. Not even sure why..

Probably much strengthened by the make up, like you said.

Last edited by Fox of Embers; 12/08/21 06:18 PM. Reason: Additional stuff
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Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
After looking at this image way to long, I think I spot a strong difference, aside from the make up.

I think the new version has more pronounced wrinkles on her forhead and even the wrinkels next to the mouth seem more pronounced.
Also, the thinner eyebrows also help.
That, together with the brighter skin, makes her look older to me. For whatever reason I seem to associate lighter skin with higher age when it comes to dark elves. Not even sure why..

Probably much strengthened by the make up, like you said.

Yes her forehead wrinkles are pretty noticeable; though maybe they're just shown more with her shorter hairstyle; her previous hair covered her forehead more. It could be that the darker drow skin tones appear smoother than the lighter ones though I'm not sure; it seems that way in the character creator for me at least.

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I also agree she looked better before, Make-up or not.

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I did something, I got her on Character creation with customization mod. Then I made a comparison, note that the silver eyeshadow is still there, I couldn't remove it. But even with that, if the eyebrow is darker instead of white, it already helps a lot. however, I must admit that the long hair fits her way more than the short one in my personal opinion.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Avallonkao; 12/08/21 06:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Avallonkao
I did something, I got her on Character creation with customization mod. Then I made a comparison, note that the silver eyeshadow is still there, I couldn't remove it. But even with that, if the eyebrow is darker instead of white, it already helps a lot. however, I must admit that the long hair fits her way more than the short one in my personal opinion.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Wow that does look less jarring; her eyebrows are contrasted more from her eyeshadow because they're darker; when the eyebrows are white their appearance sort of melts into the silvery aesthetic of her eyeshadow such that the white eyebrows are less noticeable; Larian should definitely provide some contrast somehow to make Minthara's face look more balanced; yes and the
ruffled hairstyle does look good on her; good job modding; I'm gonna have to try doing some myself; it's been a while.

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Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Here's some gifs of her when she uses her illithiad tadpole during the goblin attack.

I think the patch 5 Minthara's white eyebrows and silver eyeshadow might be contrasted better if she had a darker skin tone; maybe, maybe not.

It's impressive how she turns from a 15 year old boy to an 80 year old by smiling alone.

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From "a secret make a woman woman" to "extreme feminist".
Who the fuck think this change is a good idea?

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This is the thread! Thank you. It is necessary I think because it captures more the spirit of what I'd prefer to discuss, which are the actual visual aesthetics and not talking about it as a scarecrow for something else.

Yes I completely agree, the issue is primarily in the eyes, lashes, make-up. The whole aesthetic carries much better in the previous model. The coloring of the outfit, as well as the length of the old hair. Her character is stronger when more of her model is in shadow. Even in fully lit broad daylight, like the last post on the previous page, you can totally see what's going on.

Our perception of color changes based on the colors that surround it. The new modelling outfit design just makes everything about her seem muted and midrange, compared to the previous version.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 12/08/21 08:31 PM.
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Calling it as it is, that is a sign of Woke people who hate "normies" and all normal beauty standarts.
If those Woke people do not get booted quick at Larian it will be a DISASTER for sure and hurt the selling of the game.
Because the product consumer around the world is very tired of this.

The majority of people do not like Woke styled characters of both genders. They are cringe and offensive in itself.

Last edited by KeinSklave; 12/08/21 09:23 PM.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] <- *click*
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More scarecrowing? Everyone understands the points being made, but it does little to help the overall argument against the changes. You want her to be beautiful, a real lady/drow? ok got it. But other people have different standards of beauty, or maybe think that beauty is not necessarily the goal here, but perhaps something else like a sense of menace, so now we're at an impasse. But if you just focus on what you don't like rather than wrapping it in those other things, it's possible to have a conversation about the art that doesn't just degenerate into culture politics in like 2 seconds. When you imply that such and such a visual aesthetic is an endorsement of a certain worldview or whatever, you lose traction with half the audience that thinks you are reading into it things which aren't really there. Or maybe they will dismiss you on the grounds that your culture politics don't seem to align with their own, and so they choose the new look just be contrarian in that way. Relying on crib terms like "woke" and then threatening the specter of failed sales or all caps disaster to make your points, substituting your own view for that of product consumers around the world, it just makes many peoples eyes gloss over too. Sorry, but that's what happens. It might actually be possible to change a couple minds on the specific point at issue, but drag in all the rest of that stuff and you lose the argument before it even starts. The reason there are 3 threads now, is because they keep getting derailed by people trying to be social provocateurs, and for some reason choosing this Minthara molehill as the one to die on. I mean everyone here is a visual traditionalist already, at least in the sense that the BG3 art is all figurative and grounded in the traditional. It's not wading into conceptualism or unmoored by abstraction from any way to actually talk about it as art without relying on philosophy. But whatever, I guess some of these divides are just totally intractable now and this stuff is going to be a ubiquitous feature of modern life for anything that involves criticism of any sort. But seriously, we're here talking about the makeup right now. I don't think my preference for black eyeliner over silver eyeliner in this particular instance says anything whatsoever about my views on gender, or women, or normality. Or I don't know, maybe it actually does, but that conversation probably isn't terribly interesting and its unlikely to move anyone in the art department. So why does that need to get inserted into the conversation? It doesn't. It really doesn't.

The main point in favor of the old makeup haircut and outfit (over the new makeup, haircut and outfit), is that the old look produced better cast shadows and made the figure appear more vignetted in shadow. They seemed to hold better both in low light conditions and in full light conditions, as evidence from the many side by sides in this thread. The play off the environment lighting was stronger, whether that light is scattering blue or flickering orange. The animations were stronger too. Everything about her appearance was bolder and more impactful in the previous rendering. Regardless of whether one finds Minthara objectively hot or not, or thinks that's important for whatever reason. They don't need to make the cover of vogue italia here, but I think they should aim for a good villainous aesthetic since this is one of the main villains in act 1. You know, if you're looking for a tradtion, how about long tradition of villainous looks from D&D fantasy art, since that's the only one that should really matter here.

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Originally Posted by KeinSklave
Calling it as it is, that is a sign of Woke people who hate "normies" and all normal beauty standarts.
If those Woke people do not get booted quick at Larian it will be a DISASTER for sure and hurt the selling of the game.
Because the product consumer around the world is very tired of this.

The majority of people do not like Woke styled characters of both genders. They are cringe and offensive in itself.

let me get this straight. A female character having short hair and makeup you don't like is "woke", and it's cringe and offensive. Do you hear yourself? "normal beauty standards"? What is that exactly?

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Not suggest that anyone is wrong, but just that some tacts are more persuasive than others. Like if you actually had the goal of say reverting the appearance. If the issue has been all wrapped in other things by then, it makes it harder for the designer to make a change without knocking into a hornets nest.

I think a good villain looks more villainous when the face and figure is in shadow, and certain details are left suggested or up to the imagination to fill. This not just for villains, but especially then. Larian said when they started EA that they were interested in feedback for the darkside path. So that's still in mind as well.

Can you imagine how happy it would make many players, if Minthara's armor was black?!

And then they could you know, have some black armor that looked badass too if they wanted, even if Minthara got merc'd on site? I mean that's an instant win. Everyone would love it.

I think the rocker hair rocked way harder, she had a way more metal look with that do. But that's not the whole nine, I mean if she was in black armor and it looked legit, I probably would let the eyeliner slide a bit more. I just think as a complete thing, the new changes don't mesh as well, and throw off a way different vibe. Where before she was nearly there, she just needed her own badass duds to match the rest of her look. Oh well. Hopefully this is just like a teaser tester, and they come back with something straight glorious, like it was just an inside joke misdirection or something, before the big reveal in patch 6? lol

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and here i thought we might have a thread discussing Minthara that *didn't* have people ranting about feminism for once.

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Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
and here i thought we might have a thread discussing Minthara that *didn't* have people ranting about feminism for once.

Impossible, those ppl search for any excuse to talk about it, no matter where.

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In the compare contrasts, the most noticeable differences are in the lighting and how the different contours and color choices affect the overall impression.

There also seems to be a bit less saturation generally in any of the comparisons showing the new Minthara. Not sure if that is from the monitor or just slight differences in how the cinematics are cueing off the environment/environmental lighting, the fact that she's in a slightly different spot, or something they changed in the overall lighting?

But the facial expressions and modelling seems largely unchanged. The wrinkles for example, seem to come from just more of the model being exposed. Or the lightness of the face/neck, often seems to be because more of the contours are now set against the the environment rather than the white hair, which creates different lines. The brow and neck appear lighter because there are fewer cast shadows there.

Having more reflective and light colors on the brow and in the eyesockets also creates like visual jitter, that just makes it look less fully rendered. All I see is the artifacts, and its too busy. Get's in the way by calling too much attention to itself.

The shoulders and the rest of the dressed character below the neck, pop more, because they use warmer colors that also seem less saturated overall. It's like the midrange values on the whole figure were punched up and the overall contrast reduced as a result. We see more of what's there, but it reads flatter, which is what happens when you blow out the midrange.

The issue with how the face reads in the cheeks and ears is just that there is less there breaking it up, so it appears more plastic and video game, than gritty cinematic. Grain can come in also sorts of ways. I think those things are not facial expression but they contribute to the overall impression which plays off the face.

In painting they tell you to use a black mirror, not just because it sounds cool, but because it knocks away extraneous detail, allows one to see a simpler read on the whole impression. Something like that would help with Minthara. Like they're already noodling away at the details around the eyes, when they still need to block in the main figure and choose a value range.

Everything changes when you change the colors of the clothing. We don't experience any of it in isolation, it all keys of everything else. So I think they should go back to basics. Start with the figure, put her in black first. Then see how the rest reads. Maybe that alone would be enough to fix what's bugging me about the newer iteration?

Black Armor and Black eyeliner!

That's the battle cry for the next draft hehe. Hopefully anyway, cause I think she could look really cool that way, and the armor set would ice it for sure.

Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Here's some gifs of her when she uses her illithiad tadpole during the goblin attack.
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]
[Linked Image from s6.gifyu.com]

I think the patch 5 Minthara's white eyebrows and silver eyeshadow might be contrasted better if she had a darker skin tone; maybe, maybe not.

Originally Posted by Avallonkao
I did something, I got her on Character creation with customization mod. Then I made a comparison, note that the silver eyeshadow is still there, I couldn't remove it. But even with that, if the eyebrow is darker instead of white, it already helps a lot. however, I must admit that the long hair fits her way more than the short one in my personal opinion.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Let's take a look at Minthara in the sunlight.
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]
[Linked Image from images4.imagebam.com]

The brightness of white hair and silver eyeshadow in the patch 5 iteration seems to really be overwhelming in sunlight; I think the whiteness of the hair, lashes, and eyebrows would be sufficient for her Drow aesthetic; In the first iteration though the eyebrows are darker I don't think it would affect much if they were changed to the white of the patch 5 iteration; it really seems in my opinion when she's in the sunlight it's more aesthetically pleasing to the eye when the silver eyeshadow is not applied. Kazuliski might've used some reshade in one or both of these videos; but I think it's still a good comparison.

Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
I have to say that the most notable change about patch 5 Minthara in my opinion is her eyeshadow and although she does have a new hairstyle; I don't think that nearly affects her appearance as much her increased eyeshadow and it's color which is bright silver. So from what we can see Minthara's eyeshadow has been substantially increased and changed from black to silver.

Here in the pre patch 5 face we can see the skin around her eyes is not occluded with eyeshadow; you can see her natural skin tone under and above her eyes; she has very little makeup on; if none at all for that matter; if she does you can barely notice it; the pre patch 5 face looks very natural in my opinion.
[Linked Image from staticdelivery.nexusmods.com]

In Patch 5 her face in the same scene with silver eyeshadow; when I look at her my attention is drawn to her eyeshadow and yet I find that I cannot fully appreciate the aesthetic of her face properly because of it and it seems to lessen the gravity of her facial expressions; her face looks very happy in the below scene whereas in the pre patch 5 scene her face seems too be more serious and in my opinion seems to express more conviction.
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

I've always been partial to natural looking faces and I don't use very much makeup; I think that too much can veil the natural beauty and details of a face. It seems hard in my opinion to take a villain with bright silver eyeshadow as seriously as a one with a more natural face with little to no eyeshadow; Minthara's patch 5 face seems more relaxed; we don't see as much stress and tension
in the eyes; instead our attention is drawn to her silver eyeshadow every time we look at her eyes; it stands out in a bad way in my opinion; it takes more away than it gives and that's a shame because Larian has chosen beautifully detailed faces for BG3's characters and NPCS.

Minthara has a lot of angry facial expressions that have far more gravity when her face looks natural. This is a very impactful scene below; you can clearly see her anger and her eyes are very prominent in this pictures; you can read the emotion on her face.
[Linked Image from d.radikal.ru]

Please share what you think about it, do you like it? Let's do some comparisons and talk about the contrast.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 13/08/21 04:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by Avallonkao
Originally Posted by qwerrecd42
and here i thought we might have a thread discussing Minthara that *didn't* have people ranting about feminism for once.

Impossible, those ppl search for any excuse to talk about it, no matter where.

Yeah I kinda thought this would happen; but as long things don't get too chaotic this thread might survive until August 22 when the voting results come in; Lord willing.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Tara Grimface
Here's some gifs of her when she uses her illithiad tadpole during the goblin attack.

I think the patch 5 Minthara's white eyebrows and silver eyeshadow might be contrasted better if she had a darker skin tone; maybe, maybe not.

It's impressive how she turns from a 15 year old boy to an 80 year old by smiling alone.

It really shows the power of bad makeup choices; I'll probably put up some more compare and contrast shots of her facial expressions eventually.

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Originally Posted by Street Hero
From "a secret make a woman woman" to "extreme feminist".
Who the fuck think this change is a good idea?

Whoever it was should learn how to do makeup in my opinion; they made the brightest Drow I've ever seen.

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Drows have white eyebrows right? Other than that, don't really care about the makeup or not. Curious though if she would have the new drow face tats or not. Or if that's not a thing and its lore for another universe...

Last edited by fallenj; 13/08/21 06:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by fallenj
Drows have white eyebrows right? Other than that, don't really care about the makeup or not. Curious though if she would have the new drow face tats or not. Or if that's not a thing and its lore for another universe...

Can't really remember many drows with tattoos. Might be another plane.

I do find the feminism arguement weird, considering we talk about a women who grew up in a straw feminist society. For me, every argument against a drow design based on feminism falls flat, when we consider that the Drow where based on a parody of (extrem) feminism.


On topic a bit more, I am actually undecided.
When I put aside my optical preferences in female characters, I am starting to kinda like the new look.
Obviously, she could be improved, but her looking older makes her more believeable to me. But I really liek the thread, lots to learn for me here. =)


I also want to add that many male npcs also could use soem overhauls.
In my humble (and probably biased) view, most humans should have some sort of beard. Beardlessness is for children and elves!
Or, humans who have more contact with elves should usually have beards, humans more in contact with dwarves should usually be shaven.

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