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In previous BG games and in D&D in general there is always the risk of a "random encounter" this makes resting in the wilderness risky and forces you to consider how far you are willing to push your party outside the saftey of town.

This version of... Larians game that calls itself Baldurs Gate is completely void of random encounters. Can we expect it to stay that way?

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Originally Posted by Stikyard
Can we expect it to stay that way?

I hope so ...

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 10/08/21 03:40 PM.

Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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I hope we'll have random encounter while sleeping and/or walking.

The world feel so frozen !

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I'd like to see random encounters. BG3 world feels so static, empty of life. I started playing BG1 again and was was struck just how alive the world feels; wilderness full of animals, weather, sounds...likewise in the settlements.

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By all means make it more BG-like by doing away with camp supplies and giving us the *occasional* random encounter. That is, random encounters that occur about as frequently as they did in BG, not the just once or twice per rest someone suggested in another thread. BG allowed the player to rest as often as they liked, with the risk of occasional interruptions. Requiring supplies and having interruptions seems to me not to add to the adventure, but take away from it. And to really devalue casters who need to prepare spells to be effective. When concentration is easily broken and too many spell casts are unsuccessful (excluding inappropriate casts against resistant/immune creatures), spells already feel like an unreliable resource, pushing us to rely on those few like MM that are actually likely to hit. In the earlier BGs Vancian casting was balanced through ready access to wands.

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BG allowing the players to rest “as much as they liked” with hardly any drawbacks was one of the shittiest things about the game and something a lot of fans criticized for years , incidentally.

Last edited by Tuco; 10/08/21 11:45 AM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
BG allowing the players to rest “as much as they liked” with hardly any drawbacks was one of the shittiest things about the game and something a lot of fans criticized for years , incidentally.
Weird, I played the old games a fair bit and I don't actually remember anyone complaining about that. The AI being rubbish, the inventory management, some of the more ridiculous cheesy stuff like selling the things you just stole to the merchants you stole it from, selling wands to recharge them, some of the encounters in BG2 being made too trivial by certain items (Shield of Balduran, for instance), and ToB being too linear...

All that I remember, but I don't recall there being a whole lot of noise about unlimited resting. If people wanted to play that way then that was on them.

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Yay, first post!

Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Originally Posted by Tuco
BG allowing the players to rest “as much as they liked” with hardly any drawbacks was one of the shittiest things about the game and something a lot of fans criticized for years , incidentally.
Weird, I played the old games a fair bit and I don't actually remember anyone complaining about that. The AI being rubbish, the inventory management, some of the more ridiculous cheesy stuff like selling the things you just stole to the merchants you stole it from, selling wands to recharge them, some of the encounters in BG2 being made too trivial by certain items (Shield of Balduran, for instance), and ToB being too linear...

All that I remember, but I don't recall there being a whole lot of noise about unlimited resting. If people wanted to play that way then that was on them.

While I wasn't active on the forums when the game came out, it was a topic during the era where I started to use mods. Maybe around '05?
Hard to remember..

But yeah, many talks about how rest abusing made the already easy game even easier and such stuff.
I personally never understood that complaint, since no one forces you to use that mechanic. It is not like James Ohlen bursts through your wall after a battle and pushes the rest button on your pc..

I always where a cheaty&exploity kind of gamer when I was younger, but I still never used rest spam.

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+1 for random encounters
just started playing BG2 again and it struck me how much more 'alive' waukeen's promenade felt compared to the populated area's in BG3. Even with no D/N cycle, some kind of NPC routine would already help to alleviate the static world feeling. How hard can it be to code a few wild animals like deer and wolves roaming in the wild and have some NPC activity that helps make the world credible. In its current state it feels like we - the player - arrive in a kind of post-catastrophic-event place where no one travels on the roads anymore, no one is working (where does the druid grove get their food, wood, etc from ?). Adding a few moving and also mundane stuff (farmers plowing the fields, lumberjacks getting timber, traveling merchant caravans, bandits, etc) would really improve the feeling of exploration and adventuring in the forgotten realms instead of the current situation where it seems as if instead of traveling the party is simply moved from one custom tabletop scenario to the other with every "zone" feeling as if it was something like a distinct "level" in a platformer game instead of a specific area of a living world . The few encounters you currently have feel a bit pushy in how they all NEED to tie in to the main story (e.g. the two sect members near the owlbear cave). While these type of NPC's and encounters are certainly a big plus for the main story what is really missing now are contextual, mundane or ordinary things one would expect to exist and happen in any fantastical universe, as besides the exceptions (adventurers, important NPCs,etc) the majority of inhabitants still lives the work-sleep-eat-repeat life. Given the medieval fantasy genre BG3 and DnD is a part of this usually means taverns (functional ones, not the burning inn level) , people doing all kinds of agricultural and artisanal activity, markets, merchants, etc.

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Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
I personally never understood that complaint, since no one forces you to use that mechanic. It is not like James Ohlen bursts through your wall after a battle and pushes the rest button on your pc..

I always where a cheaty&exploity kind of gamer when I was younger, but I still never used rest spam.
What the complaint is really saying is that resting is too easy, so it's too easily abused. There is no resource pressure so you don't have to consider carefully whether you should rest or not. Where you can rest is quite forgiving too, even deep in mines or dungeons. There is the risk of getting jumped by enemies, but in the majority of cases you can just beat them down and attempt resting again, until you make it. You even get the extra xp and sometimes nice loot from ambushing enemies... Heck, even in Watcher's Keep where you can get jumped by squads of glabrezus, if your party is strong enough to handle them then hey, cool xp! Or, if you simply pick a safe location, then even this concern is out of the picture. Personally I don't feel that strongly about this but some players prefer to have the extra layer of tactical depth with more involved resting mechanics.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 10/08/21 03:10 PM.

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I do recall a certain type of player complaining, less when the BGs were current than when Obsidian was working on PoE. That said, I believe that Obsidian listening too much to the cheese-parers who wanted tighter restrictions on almost everything is one of the reasons PoE never achieved wider popularity. That and the constant cycle of post-release nerfs to any ability that was actually fun and effective to use, breaking player builds whenever you'd start to make a little progress.

I never rest-spammed back in the day and don't now, but knowing that I can replenish my once-per-long-rest abilities if I need to adds to my enjoyment of the game and encourages using a wider variety of spells, rather than just those that have +to hit built in--and playing through situations where the dice have been against you and you've had too many failures, rather than just reloading. In any case, the supply mechanic doesn't really restrict rest. In my opinion, it mostly adds a tedious layer of busy work. Eating for restored health (not in combat) and other bonuses can be fun. Eating because the game won't let you sleep unless you do, not so much.

If some players need to rest more that is them needing to rest more, not "abuse." Introducing punitive mechanics because some players are going to rest whenever they can regardless of need is to impose burdensome restrictions on the many because some are unable to find balance on their own.

Last edited by Imryll; 10/08/21 03:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
I personally never understood that complaint, since no one forces you to use that mechanic. It is not like James Ohlen bursts through your wall after a battle and pushes the rest button on your pc..

I always where a cheaty&exploity kind of gamer when I was younger, but I still never used rest spam.
What the complaint is really saying is that resting is too easy, so it's too easily abused. There is no resource pressure so you don't have to consider carefully whether you should rest or not. Where you can rest is quite forgiving too, even deep in mines or dungeons. There is the risk of getting jumped by enemies, but in the majority of cases you can just beat them down and attempt resting again, until you make it. You even get the extra xp and sometimes nice loot from ambushing enemies... Heck, even in Watcher's Keep where you can get jumped by squads of glabrezus, if your party is strong enough to handle them then hey, cool xp! Or, if you simply pick a safe location, then even this concern is out of the picture. Personally I don't feel that strongly about this but some players prefer to have the extra layer of tactical depth with more involved resting mechanics.


But this does not really changes my point, now does it?
If you dislike any sort of chese, then don't use it. Play it single-player and *you* make the rules. And on multiplayer you and your friends that agree on every rest anyways. And that is, according to what I heave read online, actually a problem in some P&P groups as well..

I just never saw a compelling reason to limit it. If people want to compare their achievements, just set limits for the contest?


One thing you can do, add a journal with dates and give a (self-imposed or achievemnt related) challenge to have the fewest ammount of days.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
BG allowing the players to rest “as much as they liked” with hardly any drawbacks was one of the shittiest things about the game
And it was. It was a resource management mechanic, without any actual management, as resources can be reaquired at almost any time, any amount of times, making the whole system pointless. I don't see what random encounters are to add to this outside flavor, not in this "structure" - if you need to rest, you will rest regardless and reload if ambush is too much. If you don't need to rest, then you likely can defeat ambush and rest anyway.

Similarly to camps supplies in PoE1, current food system, at least encourages more efficient play, while still in theory providing nearly infinite supply of long rests, unless food economy becomes far tighter in 1.0. Not terrible.

I would be shocked if the camp won't be used for a combat encounter or two, but I expect them to be more of scripted events (ala. Dragon Age: Origins) then regular systemic ambushes - it is after all less of a campsite and more of a home base. It looses the home-feel if it's raided by uninvated guests on a regular basis. So more of a pocket dimention from Throne of Bhaal, then resting in BG1 or 2.

EDIT:
Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
If you dislike any sort of chese, then don't use it. Play it single-player and *you* make the rules.
But that assumes I already know the game in and out. I don't want to have to invest significant amount of time into a game, to then be able to have a good experience. If it is about difficulty, then we have difficulty options for this very purpose. A modular difficulty settings (like Pathfinder) are even better!

A good system should encourage fun play. If devs don't find resource management fun, they should remove it (aka. Pillars of Eternity2). And if they do, they need to create coherent rules around it. By the same logic you could give players infinite healing potions, and gold, and then ask for them to decide how much of it they want to have fun.

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This is supposed to be D&D right? I've never played a D&D campaign that didn't risk random encounters.

Right now everything feels too static, there is no variation in the encounters at all. You always know exactly what you will be facing and how many if you've fought the battle once before.

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Originally Posted by Imryll
I do recall a certain type of player complaining, less when the BGs were current than when Obsidian was working on PoE. That said, I believe that Obsidian listening too much to the cheese-parers who wanted tighter restrictions on almost everything is one of the reasons PoE never achieved wider popularity.
More than questionable. PoE 1 was STILL incredibly forgiving with its camp supplies. both by giving the player enough leeway and by constantly refilling the resource through exploration. One could argue that it wasn't as easy in Path of the Damned, but then again the type of players who whine and bitch because they can't rest at will are not going to be the ones playin in "hardcore mode", are they?

PoE 2 sidestepped the issue entirely, since it made so that resource management wasn't a factor at all, anymore. The price to pay was just that any fight at that point became the same, because when you can make full use of of your arsenal without any reservations, fights tend to blend in a cloud of sameness.

Incidentally I never abused the rest system in BG2, as I'm not abusing it in BG3, but it DOES annoy me that some self-restriction and a modicum amount of love for fair play are basically the only things keeping me from spamming the button at will.
Learning to deal with scarcity should be a meaningful part of any adventurous journey. And frankly fuck all the idiotic excuses like "I have already worries in real-life" people love to throw in in these cases.

Last edited by Tuco; 10/08/21 05:12 PM.

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Saying that infinite resting was widely considered one of the shittiest things about the original BG's just strikes me as a rather aggressive exaggeration. The original games were about having a fun party-based D&D experience, not purity or hardcore experience or some such things. The people who hated constant resting challenged themselves to go without. The people who didn't mind simply rested when they felt like it. That's how I remember the community back then, anyway. It's been a few years, after all. But the point is, I simply do not recall there being all that much noise about resting mechanics back then.

Also, I don't remember any mods really doing a whole lot to discourage resting. The story also didn't really discourage resting as needed, when needed. Though of course there was the risk of getting interrupted if you tried resting in a dungeon. This was long before the days of Dark Souls becoming popular, so all that ridiculous "git gud" gobbo-vomit wasn't a thing either. There was no wide demand for a D&D game to be "hard core and punishing", there was simply joy over actually having a D&D party-based game. In my recollection, anyway.

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And it was. It was a resource management mechanic, without any actual management, as resources can be reaquired at almost any time, any amount of times, making the whole system pointless.
And if you decided that you wanted to stop the RP and be super cheesy and rest a bunch of times in an uncleared dungeon in order to cheese infinite resources then that was on you. The games were not designed to punish cheesy behavior. Quite the opposite, I would think. The list of cheesy things in BG1 and 2 is rather hilariously long, after all. And the devs never really did anything to remove it. On the contrary, they added to it. Shield of Balduran? Use Any Items? No less than three different weapons that added +1 attack per round? Wish-resting? Scrolls of protection from magic and undead? Hasted rogues insta-hiding around any corner? Wands that recharge to max when sold at any vendor?

All of that stuff and so much more was in the game. And it was awesome. And it kept being awesome for a couple of decades, because at no point was it ever really about "playing the right way", it was simply about playing in whichever way that worked for you. And people then simply had fun in whatever ways they felt like. Whether you wanted to just laugh at suicide-beholders with the SoB or you wanted to grind them down the "proper" way, it was all good. Same with the big golems. Same with mindflayers. Dragons. Demilich. And so on.

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Originally Posted by Stikyard
This is supposed to be D&D right? I've never played a D&D campaign that didn't risk random encounters.
I am not a tabletop player, so what is and isn't in DnD doesn't interest me that much. Freeresting is just one of the mechanics, that never really worked for me in a cRPG setting.


Originally Posted by Tuco
(...)
All true. I also did forget that PoE1 tied camp supplies limit to difficulty, as I never played below Veteran/Hard or whatever else it was called.

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The problem with random encounters is it incentivises resting after every fight. Otherwise you might rest when you're out of resources and get into an encounter you can't handle. If I were to include them I'd probably make them generally not combat encounters but something else that presents a nuisance.

From a game balance perspective you want a system where if the player rests frequently the random encounters are more likely to be negative and introduce the possibility of a tough encounter. If the player rests infrequently the random encounters are more likely to be mild, neutral or even beneficial. You could possibly theme this as the player being pursued. If the player is resting often then there's a chance the Absolute will catch up to them, or the tadpoles will grow.


If I wasn't shackled to D&D I'd make it so you gain XP only on resting and the more you bank the greater the bonus you get.

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Originally Posted by Stikyard
This is supposed to be D&D right?
Wrong ...
Its suppose to be computer game with rules "based on" D&D ...


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Stepping back a bit from the direct arguments, since that probably leads nowhere and it might lead there fairly quickly, I honestly don't think any of us want pointless inventory nonsense to be a big factor. Busywork does not help the core gameplay, and pointless inventory fidgeting is just that, busywork.

The question then becomes whether spells and overall character health should be a resource managed aggressively, meaning you really save all your cool spells and once-per-rest abilities a whole lot just in case you might need them, or if it should be completely unlimited, something you blow your load of every single fight. Or something in between.

It is obvious that infinite spellcasting doesn't work, but at the same time it really isn't a very funny game if we get fancy abilities and most people resist ever using them because those abilities are once per long rest and who knows when the next long rest will be and whether the ability will be needed five minutes from now. This kind of hoarding is very, very common. And that is absolutely not the situation that I really think anyone wants.

It is also worth remembering that recovery of health in 5E isn't meant to purely be "that thing that clerics do" anymore. Resting is a major source of health recovery. Short rests allow characters to spend hit dice to recover health, and long rests always heal to max and recover half a character's hit dice.

So what we should aim for is a flexible way to let people rest fairly often, if they need to, or less often, if they don't need to rest or don't want to, without letting rest becoming something you do every single time you've been in a fight, in order to keep both health and ability usage something players manage without becoming something that players outright fear using and losing.

I think a better approach to this, rather than trying to turn pointless food items into a meaningful thing, is probably to do away with it entirely (maybe we can sell the food and booze?) and simply add some restrictions on when long resting is possible. We do not have time, so one long rest per 24 hours is not possible, but starting certain fights should block the ability to long rest. It makes no sense to clean out the outside of the gobbo camp, then go inside and everybody is totally oblivious and you can rest for a week, and none of them ever peak outside and notice the carnage.

Start the village cleansing and again, if you leave and take a long rest then it hardly makes sense that the remaining gobbos haven't called for reinforcements. Druid grove is the same thing, obviously. Ethel would presumably also call some friends if you delay, and the spider queen should reasonably be able to gather a lot more family members too, in case you don't clear that map in one go.

But aside from those situations, I really do not see any reason to limit how much the player is resting. But maybe it could be connected with a fatigue mechanic that takes into consideration how much damage characters in the party have suffered, how many steps they walked, how much they've jumped, how many fights they've been in, and so on?

I don't really have the answer but while I don't think spells should be infinite in every single fight, I also don't like the current camp supplies mechanic.

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