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I think you are mixing story, and system ... those are two different world, you cant take everything litteraly. :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Either way, current strength of these characters just doesn't make sense from a story perspective.
Can you please list us all characters whos "strength" makes sence from a story perspective? smile

I mean ...
Gale should have ben lover of Goddess of Magic herself ...
Wyll should have ben great hero with dozens of sucessfull battles ...
Etc. etc. you get the idea.


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I think you are mixing story, and system ... those are two different world, you cant take everything litteraly. :-/

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Either way, current strength of these characters just doesn't make sense from a story perspective.
Can you please list us all characters whos "strength" makes sence from a story perspective? smile

I mean ...
Gale should have ben lover of Goddess of Magic herself ...
Wyll should have ben great hero with dozens of sucessfull battles ...
Etc. etc. you get the idea.

I don't normally say this, but in this case you are 100% wrong. Story and mechanics HAVE to line up to some degree at least. Again, I play more than just D&D RPG. I've played Star Wars as well, many versions of it. I can only imagine what it would be like for me to throw my PCs against Darth Vader and have them kill him. Oh wait! That happened. The players were freaking out. "How can we kill Darth Vader? We aren't even that tough. I got a lucky hit and Vader is dead."

If you create a villain and act like they are super tough, and then you make them mechanically able to be beaten in a single hit, or maybe 2 or 3, it is a HUGE letdown. Players will feel like, "What the crap was that?" People don't want villains who are blown way out of proportion only have them be killed in a hit or two.

You CANNOT divorce story from RPG, ANY aspect of RPG. The whole POINT of RPG is to build your own story together with the DM and other players. You are BUILDING A STORY. If you divorce mechanics from story, there is a HUGE discrepancy in the game.

Right now, Halsin is a baby weak fart that 1 of my level 4 characters could kill. I don't need all 4. I just need 1. THAT is not an archdruid. THAT is a baby druid who can't wipe his own butt. In fact, the first time I ever reached Halsin in previous playthroughs, I was frustrated to no end because I couldn't keep him alive. He'd take a few hits and die. I was like, "What the heck! This is NOT some accomplished healer who can lead a grove of druids, and Kagha was so easily beaten IN PATCH 5, and so was Olodan. I wiped the FLOOR with them. Every playthrough, I've wiped the floor with them. If I work my way to level 5 before I face them, I'm going to wipe the floor with them even more.

Why? Because the story has BEEN divorced from the mechanics of the game. "Kagha is some big, tough druid. Better not challenge her." Level 3 character kills her in 3 or 4 hits. Hmmm. Something's wrong with that. "Olodan is even tougher! Look how Kagha fears her." Level 3 character kills her in 2 rounds. NOT tough at all. Why did they say she was? Ragzlin is a hobgoblin boss of the goblin horde. Beat him in 3 rounds. Hmmm... doesn't seem tough to me. Minthara DIDN'T DO A GOD BLESSED THING TO MY CHARACTERS during the Grove battle. I literally beat the living tar out of her. NOT what I'd call an ominous, tough bad guy.

As for the Origin Characters, they had better explain why they are now Level 1 noobs because if they don't, that's a HUGE discrepancy to me and will ruin the entire game for me. I'm thinking they are explaining this because the tadpole has reset their abilities and started them over. Therefore, they went from super tough awesome Level 15+ characters to Level 1 noobs. Wyll says he could summon fire and such. Gale was Mystra's lover. Shadowheart seems to have been a powerful cleric of Shar/Selune. Lae'zel sounds like she used to be a powerful, possibly Kith'rak potential warrior. Astarion lived for 200 years as a vampire spawn, so he should be some super tough rogue. The tadpole SEEMS to have reset everyone's talents and skills. If that's not the case, or there isn't some actual, logical explanation, then that's just plain stupid. Don't tell me these super awesome, tough characters are only Level 1 at the start of the game and give me no reason for it.

I'm telling you now, this game will drop from my all-time favorite game in the history of forever to absolute worst game of all time if they divorce mechanics from story and don't explain rational, logical elements like this. I'm just saying, it's utterly idiotic. Again, it's like making Anakin Skywalker a Level 1 Jedi Padawan. You can't do that. If you bring Anakin Skywalker into a story, you'd better at least make him a Jedi Knight and give him some nice stats.

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Any druid can challenge Faldorn in BG2. You also become the Great Druid at the end of the stronghold quest - way beyond an Archdruid.

And they could have just thrown Goblin after Goblin at him until his Spell Slots are gone. If he even was at full strength when the fight happened.
It could also be done by a surprise sneak attack, pulver or gas trap to knock him out. The biggest trouble is his shapeshifting and not his spells. But I assume you can actually deal with a lot of enemies he could transform.

Also, I never got the feeling that this was an overly important grove. I might have missed something, but where is that implied?
I just saw it as a small grove that has become a refuge because of its location and defensibility.



In fact, your post reminded me of a problem with druids:
Many of their spells influence nature, so it is completly resonable that he did not use them, since he thought the harm to nature is greater than the benefit. Druids are not nature themed mages, they are wardens of nature given power over it. That allows them to really harm nature.
Though he would be justified if he knew that they are all tadpole infected. Aberration invasion is big enough of a threat to pull out everything.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
stuff

okay, let's take your suggestion then. All the badass characters are high level now. Let's say they're all level 10. Our party is level 3. What exactly are we going to be fighting until we get to level 10 to challenge the first couple of bosses in the game? Is Larian going to just say "fuck it, all the bosses we currently have in game are now high level and the party just can't fight them now" What? this is act ONE. Or do we just always happen to have another badass temporary ally that helps us out?

Last edited by Boblawblah; 12/08/21 06:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Look. I don't care whether they show you the levels or not
Well, but I do.

Quote
All I'm saying is, storywise, these characters are weak and don't make sense.
I also happen to agree with this. But they aren't mutually exclusive problems, and in several ways fairly complementary.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Can you please list us all characters whos "strength" makes sence from a story perspective? smile

I mean ...
Gale should have ben lover of Goddess of Magic herself ...
Wyll should have ben great hero with dozens of sucessfull battles ...
Etc. etc. you get the idea.
These are indeed also a problem of mismatch between narrative and mechanics (ludo-narrative dissonance, as the stuck-ups know-it-all in gaming journalism love to call it) so not sure what point you think you are making.

"Oh well, it's all senseless shit anyway, so who cares!" isn't really the strongest argument.

Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
Any druid can challenge Faldorn in BG2. You also become the Great Druid at the end of the stronghold quest - way beyond an Archdruid..
BG2 also starts at level 7 minimum and ends up in the 20s (up to level 40 with Throne of Bhaal).
Level 12 is precisely the middle ground where AD&D/2nd Edition used to put the minimum threshold to even qualify as an Archdruid candidate.

Last edited by Tuco; 12/08/21 06:42 PM.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
BG2 also starts at level 7 minimum and ends up in the 20s (up to level 40 with Throne of Bhaal).
Level 12 is precisely the middle ground where AD&D/2nd Edition used to put the minimum threshold to even qualify as an Archdruid candidate.

I just added that part for completness sake.
Didn't druid leveling end with level 11 or so? Every other "level" would have to be gained by defeating one of the few people to have the special rank?
If I recall correctly, that was pretty high level for 2nd edition. ToB was rather gamey when it came to levels. But I think that is always a problem with epic campaigns. Throwing them into hell for the epic portion of the NWN campaign was a pretty good solution actually.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by GM4Him
stuff

okay, let's take your suggestion then. All the badass characters are high level now. Let's say they're all level 10. Our party is level 3. What exactly are we going to be fighting until we get to level 10 to challenge the first couple of bosses in the game? Is Larian going to just say "fuck it, all the bosses we currently have in game are now high level and the party just can't fight them now" What? this is act ONE. Or do we just always happen to have another badass temporary ally that helps us out?

I don't get this! What do you think we'll be fighting late game? Mind Flayers. Single-handedly, just your party. The game is setting up for that. A LOW level mind flayer is CR 7. Top level is CR 8. Elder Brain is CR 14. So what do I expect late game? They're likely going to throw CR 7 enemies at you in number, so maybe 4 CR 7 Mind Flayers at one time plus minions. There is a HUGE way to go for what they can throw at you. Even if level cap is 10, it's not inconceivable that you could potentially handle Mind Flayers depending on your gear, choices in level ups, etc. What do YOU think they're going to throw at us? They've already thrown Intellect Devourers at 2 level 2 characters. I'll guarantee they're going to continue to throw stuff at us that is WAY higher level.

But regardless, I'm suggesting they use Hobgoblin Warlord stats for Ragzlin. That's CR 6. That's not a HUGE issue for a boss bad buy if your characters can reach level 5 by that point. Sure, you could also be at level 3, but that's again, only if you rush right to him and try to face him without first doing any grinding and exploring and leveling up. If you want to face a CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord before you properly level up, that's on you. That's like rushing to the Gith and fighting 4 Gith at level 2 or 3. You SHOULD expect to get your butt handed to you.

But I cap at Level 4 even before I face the Gith. I actually could probably get to level 5 easy before fighting the Gith and Gnoll fights, depending on where I go and what I do, etc. So it is, again, not a huge ask to make one of the two major bosses of EA a CR 6 enemy.

So all I'm suggesting is that Ragzlin be set at the standards of a Hobgoblin Warlord. If Halsin is beefed up as well, and you get him to join your party for the fight, you'll have an easier time at it. If not, if you're at level 5, which I guarantee you would be if you do all the side quests by that point, you could still face a CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord and his weak cronies.

As for Minthara, I would consider her close to the Drow Elite Warrior stats, something between Elite Warrior and Drow Mage, or at least she should be. That's a CR 5 to CR 7. Ragzlin, at one point, even says that "if the Absolute tells us to take orders from a Drow, then that's what we do." This implies that SHE'S the actual BIG BOSS of the entire EA. That being the case, she should probably be closer to the CR 7 challenge rating, meaning she SHOULD be more like the Drow Elite Warrior with additional cleric spellcasting.

It's doable. It's not impossible. How do I know? I TESTED IT. With Tabletop, I sent 4 level 5 characters plus Halsin against a Hobgoblin Warlord with Faithbreaker, and the PCs won with only 2 characters feeling the pain. Ragzlin had 12 minions with him. It wasn't an impossible fight. It wasn't even close to an impossible fight. It was actually quite a good fight, and it displayed Ragzlin's superior strength and power without totally overwhelming the players. It showed them to respect the boss. He wasn't just some peon they could walz in and kill like he was no big deal.

I also tested it out, again with Tabletop, with Olodan at level 9, Kagha at 8, Rath at 7. The druid fight was awesome! Walls of Fire! Conjured Animals! Thuderwave all over the place. The heroes suffered some hits, but the DM can, again, balance the encounter with NPC allies. Doing so is what makes D&D such a fun game. You can have these epic encounters with epic villains, and your party doesn't have to be gods and single-handedly wiping out the big bosses alone. They can use strats and get help from allies and make a sizeable difference. If villains are easy to beat weaklings, it doesn't feel like you've really overcome much.

In late game, you would expect more of that, but you don't NEED to during lower levels. Make the characters mechanically make sense, and balance the game around it. It's really not that hard.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I TESTED IT.

No, you didn't. You did a home brewed fanfiction with your own numbers. This is a VIDEO GAME. Larian is making this, not YOU. They've already committed to a huge number of things that you're just hand waving away with a "it can work!". It CAN'T work. that train has left the station so far long ago you might as well be looking for the next train.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
No, you didn't. You did a home brewed fanfiction with your own numbers. This is a VIDEO GAME. Larian is making this, not YOU. They've already committed to a huge number of things that you're just hand waving away with a "it can work!". It CAN'T work. that train has left the station so far long ago you might as well be looking for the next train.
You do understand that video-game or table-top numbers are still numbers? The video-game has it's restrictions for sure, but you can apply them in table-top.
PS: And who's being aggressive now?

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
No, you didn't. You did a home brewed fanfiction with your own numbers. This is a VIDEO GAME. Larian is making this, not YOU. They've already committed to a huge number of things that you're just hand waving away with a "it can work!". It CAN'T work. that train has left the station so far long ago you might as well be looking for the next train.
You do understand that video-game or table-top numbers are still numbers? The video-game has it's restrictions for sure, but you can apply them in table-top.

I do understand. I also understand that he's changing numbers to suit his own role playing ideas, which is FINE, but in a video game where Larian is in control and which a LOT of work has already been done, you can't just wave away entire sections of the game because "it worked" in a home brewed roleplaying situation. Also, i don't know what you're talking about "who's being aggressive now?" bit. have we argued before or something?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I TESTED IT.

No, you didn't. You did a home brewed fanfiction with your own numbers. This is a VIDEO GAME. Larian is making this, not YOU. They've already committed to a huge number of things that you're just hand waving away with a "it can work!". It CAN'T work. that train has left the station so far long ago you might as well be looking for the next train.
+1


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I do understand. I also understand that he's changing numbers to suit his own role playing ideas, which is FINE, but in a video game where Larian is in control and which a LOT of work has already been done, you can't just wave away entire sections of the game because "it worked" in a home brewed roleplaying situation.
By your logic we all should stop providing any feedback, because the game is already done (no, it isn't). And you're overestimating the amount of work they would need to do to raise some numbers for some bosses.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Also, i don't know what you're talking about "who's being aggressive now?" bit. have we argued before or something?
You lashed out at me recently for being aggresive when I simply asked him to stop posting fanfiction in suggestions and feedback. Now you're lashing at him because you think that numbers from his fanfiction is somehow inferior compared to the video-game.
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
<...> You did a home brewed fanfiction <...> Larian is making this, not YOU <...> you're just hand waving away <...> that train has left the station so far long ago you might as well be looking for the next train.
- At least for me this looks too rejecting if not aggressive towards others feedback. Just some food for thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I do understand. I also understand that he's changing numbers to suit his own role playing ideas, which is FINE, but in a video game where Larian is in control and which a LOT of work has already been done, you can't just wave away entire sections of the game because "it worked" in a home brewed roleplaying situation.
By your logic we all should stop providing any feedback, because the game is already done (no, it isn't). And you're overestimating the amount of work they would need to do to raise some numbers for some bosses.
I have no plans to make judge for you two ...
But it occurs to me that here Boblawblah is trying to suggest that it is not possible to delete the entire section of the story and completely redo it from scratch ... rather than to suggest that no change is possible anymore.

That would be more of an "ad absurdum" interpretation. o_O


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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edit: seriously though, i do apologize for coming across more aggressive than I intended. now that i reread my post i can very much see why it was taken aggressively. I have nothing against you GM4HIM and you as well. i apologize for being a dick.

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You both are really thinking about changing numbers for bosses as "delete the entire section of the story and completely redo it from scratch"? Are you kidding? crazy
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
i apologize for being a dick.
Accepted at least by me.

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if it were simply changing numbers, i would agree with you, but it's scaling up very early game bosses to a fairly high level. What happens is the next boss HAS to be even more scaled, and so on and so on. It affects the entire game drastically. Kagha is a relatively minor boss in this game. Even in the little we have of the game, she's not considered to be a scary villain type (at least by me). Minthara as well. The hag is a bit more for sure and the gith patrol oddly are the most threatening of everyone (which needs to change imo).

What happens when we bump them up is the next boss is either a similar level or more powerful. With the story Larian seems to be telling, it would seem that they're going to be having more and more powerful challenges as we go through the game, as is normal. So the bosses can't stay the same level, Kagha CANNOT be on the same level as the next boss without them seeming weak. So how would GM4HIM's plan work? Should an arch druid be more powerful than a bandit leader that we meet in act III?

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I would presume they could keep on scaling the bosses more and more. Giving them more minions till level 20. And knowing Larian they are quite inventive when it comes to desining a boss-fight that will make you sweat even if you all high-lvl in legendary equipment.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I TESTED IT.

No, you didn't. You did a home brewed fanfiction with your own numbers. This is a VIDEO GAME. Larian is making this, not YOU. They've already committed to a huge number of things that you're just hand waving away with a "it can work!". It CAN'T work. that train has left the station so far long ago you might as well be looking for the next train.
+1
Of course, if it's a TERRIBLE argument you have to like it.

I'm sorry but "No, this is not D&D, this is a Larian game and they'll do whatever they want" IS a terrible argument.
The design goal should be precisely to have battle scenarios that are fully (or at very least for the most part) reproducible on a board.

I really don't buy this tentatively authorial crap of "Let them do what they want and not be shackled by the rules".


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Originally Posted by Zellin
You both are really thinking about changing numbers for bosses as "delete the entire section of the story and completely redo it from scratch"? Are you kidding? crazy
More like i didnt get the impression that desired change around here is just to "adjust numbers" ...

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Halsin joins you...
If Kagha joins you...
Rath can help ...
... other, more powerful druids in the fight.

If the baddies focus on tougher allies, you can assist them in killing the tougher baddies.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
... IF you have help.

Kagha and/or Rath help against Olodan...
if Kagha is against you maybe a few other more powerful druids join you to balance it out...
Halsin helps you against Ragzlin and Minthara... separately ideally.
If you don't rescue Halsin first, or you take the evil path, maybe you get help from somewhere else.

Therefore, 4 Level 5 or 6 PCs going against a Level 8 or 9 boss, with help, is not too difficult.

Same is true for going against Ragzlin and Minthara of they were level 10. If you have a level 10 Halsin

Its just the same shit as it was with invincible NPCs ...
As it was with weak PCs ...
Or as it was with stat-cap ...

Does it make sence, that human who trains (Str 20) is as Strong as Half-Orc (Str 20) ? ... Yes! It does.
Does it make sence, that the very same Half-Orc who trains as often and as hard as the very same Human is just as Strong (Str 20)? Definietly not ... but that is just how this rules works.

Our characters may be "level 1" bcs "game engine says so" ...
But that dont mean they are unexperienced idiots, who will cut their own heads off, bcs *now* its the first time in their life, when they wield a weapon. :-/

Simmilar to GM4Him's examples ...
If you read those posts, you can quite early figure out that once he start adding levels, to one ... he had to add levels to almost everyone around, bcs otherwise it would again "not make sence" ...
It dont matter to me, it everyone have "10" written next to name, and are aproximately same strength as my character ... or if they all have "4" written next to their name, and are aproximately same strength as my character ...
The world make sence as it is, all you need to do is hide the level button and dont watch it ... then you realize the number dont really matter, bcs once you have on one hand "arch druid" and on one hand "ex-archwizard who was so talented so he charmer even goddes of magic herself" ... wink

I dunno how it explain better. :-/
Did you know that the average iq is always 100?
This means that the values are shifted so that 100 is always exactly (as far as possible) in the middle ...
Likewise, if we follow the situation here in such a way that all characters should have level 10 ... we will only achieve that we have moved the center.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 12/08/21 10:04 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
More like i didnt get the impression that desired change around here is just to "adjust numbers" ...

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Halsin joins you...
If Kagha joins you...
Rath can help ...
... other, more powerful druids in the fight.

If the baddies focus on tougher allies, you can assist them in killing the tougher baddies.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
... IF you have help.

Kagha and/or Rath help against Olodan...
if Kagha is against you maybe a few other more powerful druids join you to balance it out...
Halsin helps you against Ragzlin and Minthara... separately ideally.
If you don't rescue Halsin first, or you take the evil path, maybe you get help from somewhere else.

Therefore, 4 Level 5 or 6 PCs going against a Level 8 or 9 boss, with help, is not too difficult.

Same is true for going against Ragzlin and Minthara of they were level 10. If you have a level 10 Halsin
And I thought you had enough playthroughs by now to recognise the optional outcomes we already have.

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