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Originally Posted by Zellin
And I thought you had enough playthroughs by now to recognise the optional outcomes we already have.
Enough to know, how many times you would be screwed. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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GM4Him Offline OP
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Let's get one thing straight. I played the Tabletop game by the rules. Rolled legit rolls. Used proper stats. You know, what this game is SUPPOSED to be based on.

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GM4Him Offline OP
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So after reading the responses more thoroughly, you've once again missed the point.

Let's just take one boss. Ragzlin. Should he be tougher than the Hag? Yes! Why? HE'S ONE OF THE STORYLINE FINAL BOSSES. So when I face Ragzlin, I should be facing a beefy boss guy. It should be a difficult fight for your characters.

Right now, we're capped at 4, but later we won't and we'll be at level 5. Hobgoblin Warlord is a CR 6. So, a party of 4 level 6 characters could relatively beat him without much loss. Therefore, using D&D DM game campaign design, if I want a boss fight for 4 level 5 characters to be challenging, I would pick a boss at a CR slightly higher than my characters average level. Thus, a Hobgoblin Warlord works VERY well for a boss fight for 4 Level 4 or 5 characters.

And as for Kagha/Olodan, YOU ALREADY GET HELP DURING THE FIGHT. So the ONLY thing Im suggesting is that Larian beef their stats and make them appropriate and then balance the fight from there. If they have to add a few more characters on either side to balance, then what's the big deal?

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
So after reading the responses more thoroughly, you've once again missed the point.

Let's just take one boss. Ragzlin. Should he be tougher than the Hag? Yes! Why? HE'S ONE OF THE STORYLINE FINAL BOSSES. So when I face Ragzlin, I should be facing a beefy boss guy. It should be a difficult fight for your characters.

Right now, we're capped at 4, but later we won't and we'll be at level 5. Hobgoblin Warlord is a CR 6. So, a party of 4 level 6 characters could relatively beat him without much loss. Therefore, using D&D DM game campaign design, if I want a boss fight for 4 level 5 characters to be challenging, I would pick a boss at a CR slightly higher than my characters average level. Thus, a Hobgoblin Warlord works VERY well for a boss fight for 4 Level 4 or 5 characters.

And as for Kagha/Olodan, YOU ALREADY GET HELP DURING THE FIGHT. So the ONLY thing Im suggesting is that Larian beef their stats and make them appropriate and then balance the fight from there. If they have to add a few more characters on either side to balance, then what's the big deal?

Why does he have to be strogner than the hag? Putting aside that he is, at best, a mid-boss and not a final boss, optional battles can be tougher than him. According to your logic, Aran Linvail in BG2 needs to be tougher than Firkraag. A Master Thief more powerful, in personal battle, than an ancient dragon. Whic he is not. The main problem in fighting him comes from the fact that you need to get through the guild and not his personal prowess.

Also, I assume most players do not everything in a playthrough, so it is possible they are lower than level 5. I have no data on the average completion rate of game chapters, so not sure what level is average.

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Lol. You just shot your argument in the foot, actually. Thanks for bringing up Firkraag. You are right in that bosses ought to be appropriate based on who they are in the story. Not necessarily based on whether they are end bosses, etc.

That is true to a certain degree, but you've made my point perfectly. Imagine facing Firkraag and he was nerfed and not a legit dragon. Instead, they made him a dragon wyrmling or a young dragon. THAT is what they've done with Ragzlin.

And Ragzlin ISN'T like Firkraag. He IS a final boss of EA. So from a video game perspective, there is another reason he should be stronger. It's poor video game design when you fight a more challenging enemy during a side quest than the final boss UNLESS you get some really good rewards for a side quest enemy that helps you face the final boss.

So, it's fine, for example, if the Gith fight is harder if by killing the Gith you get cool stuff that helps you take Ragzlin and Minthara down.

The whole point is the characters are not appropriate for the story. My characters should not even be able to kill Halsin unless they make him very low health, etc.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Let's just take one boss. Ragzlin. Should he be tougher than the Hag? Yes! Why? HE'S ONE OF THE STORYLINE FINAL BOSSES. So when I face Ragzlin, I should be facing a beefy boss guy. It should be a difficult fight for your characters.

This I disagree with. A hobgoblin boss has no business being more powerful than an ancient hag with magic powers. Ragzlin can have an infinite amount of goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear/ogre minions to make it a tough fight. I would just make him stronger than an ogre to legitimize his status over his strongest minions. The hag is also optional for the story while Ragzlin is not.

Generally I would keep the scale of any given "tribe" as tight as possible. If all the other hobgoblins are comparable to a level 1 Fighter, it makes no sense the leader of the pack would be level 8 or something crazy high compared to the others. Something like..

Hobgoblin soldier - lvl 1
Hobgoblin sergeant - lvl 2
Hobgoblin lieutenant - lvl 3
Hobgoblin chieftain - lvl 5-6

A hobgoblin king or such legendary individual could be level 8-10, strong enough to take on a hill giant.

Last edited by 1varangian; 13/08/21 12:22 PM.
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GM4Him Offline OP
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Sigh. Ok. Let's put it in a different way. Right now, Ragzlin is closest to a Hobgoblin Devastator at CR 4 with a nice warhammer. Not a terrible choice, but not exactly that much of a big deal as a boss. All I'm suggesting is that they make him more like a CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord which fits his character more than a Devastator. The Warlord has Leadership, Parry, Three Attacks and most importantly Martial advantage where once per turn he can increase his damage by an extra whopping 4d6 IF his target is within 5 feet of an ally of the hobgoblin. So, ranged attacks against Ragzlin are most effective and keeping away from his massive brawniness. This seems, to me, VERY appropriate for a guy who looks like a hobgoblin barbarian with a giant warhammer. It also makes him a lot tougher with 97 HP and would make the battle more challenging. I'd rather face THIS Ragzlin with less minions around him for better balance than to face a CR 4 hobgoblin with like 50 HP who my Fighter could face 1v1 and beat.

The main point, however, is that if Halsin is with you, the man should not be some nerfed level 4 noob. HE'S A GOSH DARN DANG DIDDLY ARCHDRUID, and no matter what way you slice it, the man should be at least level 10. If you are fighting a battle with a level 10 druid on your side, you need a boss who is MUCH tougher than Ragzlin is currently or the level 10 ARCHDRUID ACCOMPLISHED HEALER is going to wipe the floor with everyone or at least he should. If they are going to NOT allow you to have Halsin in the battle with you, then whatever. Fine. Nerf Ragzlin or whatever. But either way, if they're going to allow Halsin to join you at any point fighting any battle at all, the mans needs to be appropriately leveled.

And again, if Halsin is at least level 10, as he should be, Kagha should be at least somewhere close to that, not some level 4 noob that my brand new druid I created can 1v1 and win. She's supposed to be the head of the dang grove in Halsin's place, not some barely able to do anything baby druid. Same with Rath. It's like you guys are focusing on one little thing and not taking the whole into consideration.

And again, it's perfectly fine to create a boss like a CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord for this point in the game. Make the players work to defeat Ragzlin and Minthara. Don't create the game so someone can just waltz into the Goblin Camp and kill its leaders like it's no big deal. The player should have to work to build up their characters to prepare for something like that. Don't allow players to simply rush from the Nautiloid into the Goblin Camp and kill everything like it's super easy. What the heck kind of crap game would that be? A CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord with Faithbreaker is appropriate especially with Halsin's help. Actually, with Halsin's help, he would not be difficult at all, but that's how it should be because you were smart enough to get an ARCHDRUID'S help to defeat your enemies.

And with Kagha and Olodan, if you are good enough to turn Kagha against Olodan, then again you've successfully acquired the advantage in that battle. You persuaded Kagha to help you against a very tough boss bad guy instead of having to face Kagha AND Olodan with only Rath to help you as a very tough ally. So again, it would be appropriate and it would work well with the game. Roleplay well, get help fighting main bad guys. Roleplay poorly, you have a tougher fight ahead of you.

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Halsin should just turn into a bird and fly back to his Grove where he has responsibilities to the other druids to keep them safe and lead them. A leader wouldn't risk their life performing unnecessary risky heroics.

But overall.. yes, NPC's should be higher level that makes sense in the context and hierarchy of the world rather than match the level of the current party just because we need to be able to fight everyone "fairly". We don't need to be able to fight everyone everywhere. And the fights don't have to be fair either. If Halsin needs to be a potential enemy for the party to fight, the party should have help to balance the fight against an 11th level Druid rather than an archdruid having the stats of a novice druid. The Absolute already wants to get rid of Halsin and there are more powerful servants available for the task. Or there can be a plot to poison them or weaken them somehow before the fight. That would be so much more interesting an rewarding too compared to "just another fight".

If everything is scaled down to match the party, the party doesn't grow from beginners to heroes. Archdruids and archmages don't mean anything in the world. Always being a badass top dog who can beat anyone is a really boring lackluster dynamic.

Last edited by 1varangian; 13/08/21 12:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
HE'S ONE OF THE STORYLINE FINAL BOSSES.
Uhm ... no, he is not. :-/

At best he is one of Bosses in one of multiple possible approaches that solves one of surface quests.
Nothing more.

Originally Posted by 1varangian
The hag is also optional for the story while Ragzlin is not.
Actualy ... Ragzlin is as optional, as litteraly anyone else. O_o

There is multiple mentioning of Moonrise Towers, maybe in final game you will be able to skip whole Druid vs. Goblins conflict ... and just follow different path (Gith for example) ...

Out of mind i think you learn about Moonrise Towers from: Halsin his notes and diary, Minthara (who coveniently have Halsin's Diary if you kill her ... or had in previous patches), that Zhentarim vendor in Goblin camp, from Gnoll leader if you search her mind, from raiders and the Elf lady in Burning Inn ... and funny enough,
in previous patch i managed to help Kagha to finish Ritual of Thorns (it was accident actualy but w/e) ... then Halsin joined me and litteraly told me that there is no point in killing goblin leaders anymore ... kinda shame i didnt try to let them live.
So ... i dare to presume Ragzlin is just optional boss. wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 13/08/21 01:03 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
And Ragzlin ISN'T like Firkraag. He IS a final boss of EA. So from a video game perspective, there is another reason he should be stronger. It's poor video game design when you fight a more challenging enemy during a side quest than the final boss UNLESS you get some really good rewards for a side quest enemy that helps you face the final boss.

So, it's fine, for example, if the Gith fight is harder if by killing the Gith you get cool stuff that helps you take Ragzlin and Minthara down.

The whole point is the characters are not appropriate for the story. My characters should not even be able to kill Halsin unless they make him very low health, etc.
The story is what the player makes of it, because the EA is very flexible when it comes to the main plot. You can skip the goblin camp completely, and leave the goblin - tieflings conflict to resolve itself. Ragzlin and Minthara, and even Halsin are optional so far.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol. You just shot your argument in the foot, actually. Thanks for bringing up Firkraag. You are right in that bosses ought to be appropriate based on who they are in the story. Not necessarily based on whether they are end bosses, etc.

That is true to a certain degree, but you've made my point perfectly. Imagine facing Firkraag and he was nerfed and not a legit dragon. Instead, they made him a dragon wyrmling or a young dragon. THAT is what they've done with Ragzlin.

And Ragzlin ISN'T like Firkraag. He IS a final boss of EA. So from a video game perspective, there is another reason he should be stronger. It's poor video game design when you fight a more challenging enemy during a side quest than the final boss UNLESS you get some really good rewards for a side quest enemy that helps you face the final boss.

So, it's fine, for example, if the Gith fight is harder if by killing the Gith you get cool stuff that helps you take Ragzlin and Minthara down.

The whole point is the characters are not appropriate for the story. My characters should not even be able to kill Halsin unless they make him very low health, etc.
I obviously compared the Hag to Firkraag. As they are both pretty optional.
I compared Ragzlin to Aran Linvail, the boss of chapter three if you chose to side with Bodhi.

Also, Ragzlin is not nerfed, he is just not what you expected. That is a difference. You give erveryone a role and that are angry that the game does fall short on what you see as their role and how they, in your opinion, should be.

Ragzlin is underwhelming? Could be, but that does not mean he is nerfed. It just means that he is an underwhelming enemy.
There is no reason every enemy needs to be fought and every quest needs to be done. If the developer want to give people the freedom to skip quests, for rp or whatever reasons, then they can not finetune the boss battles to the level of someone who exhausted all possible content before going into that fight. Meaning it is easily possible that a boss-type enemy is underwhelming.

Also, no, not every hard encounter needs to give you stuff to better defeat other enemies. They can just exist as flavor for the world and an additional challenge.

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You people are impossible. Fine. Don't view Ragzlin and MInthara as the biggest bosses in the EA because you can avoid them. I totally disagree with you when you say they AREN'T the biggest bosses in EA, but whatever.

The facts remain. Halsin should be WAY tougher, which means Kagha should be WAY tougher, which means Olodan should be WAY tougher, which means Rath should be WAY tougher. And if that's true, then Ragzlin and Minthara should be WAY tougher since everyone, including Zevlor and Kagha, are so freaking scared of them and their minions.

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