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Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Tuco
There are many, more imaginative ways that games could use to "unlock fast travel" if they really tried. For instance an open world game could have a ground mount and then a flying mount later on, even ON TOP of a (less forgiving) network of portals.
But I'm digressing a bit since these are not examples that apply to BG3, specifically.
I love dragon mounts. grin
Well nothing wrong with that games like WOW MMO have flying mounts and Witcher 3 have at least horses. That said I would be very suprised if Larian suddenly says BG3 will have mounts.
+1 for mounts in games, but I doubt mounts is in BG3. Closest you will come to Dragon mounts likely in BG3 is some cutscene with Gityanki riding Dragon mounts.

You could have a Dragon fight in BG3 Act 3 maybe that is realistic. No I dont mean some super huge Dragons necesssary, but example Solasta has a Green Dragon that is not undefeatable.

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Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Tuco
There are many, more imaginative ways that games could use to "unlock fast travel" if they really tried. For instance an open world game could have a ground mount and then a flying mount later on, even ON TOP of a (less forgiving) network of portals.
But I'm digressing a bit since these are not examples that apply to BG3, specifically.
I love dragon mounts. grin
Well, In WotR you have to do with dinosaur mounts.
Although one mythic path gives you a dragon companion. No idea if you can use him as mount though.
And another path lets you become a dragon, but technically you are no mount.

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I hope BG3 will have mounts. Not because I overly care about them, but it is a good old tradition that Paladins have their special mount and I want to use that at least once.. =P

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Originally Posted by Ikke
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Immersion is the biggest difference IMO.

WoTC is way more immersive than BG3. Despite it's good gameplay and graphics, BG3 always throw at our heads that it's a video game.

Does everyone agree with this assessment?

Yes, since day 1. I think it was one of greatest strengths of the originals back in the day. But Larian is completely out of touch with the originals, have you seen them mentioning BG1/2 any time? I was surprised when Swen mentioned immersion on Patch 5, until then I never imagined he knew what the word meant.

Regarding PF WOTR, it looks like a really nice game, but the setting doesn't appeal to me. That giant cockroach demon dropping from the sky and killing a dragon was too much for me.

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Originally Posted by Ikke
The game design could also make fast travel more immersive. And yes, that will probably mean having less access to it.

1) players open a beautifull map that represent the area.
2) players click the icons on the map to select an area to fast travel (BG1)
3) players are teleported to the right entrance in the area (in exemple you can reach the blighted village by 4 roads. If you were in the north of the map you're teleported in the north of the village, at the closed gates).
You have a
4) a few hours have passed

Done.

This is the same fast travel system except that your characters have walked rather than being magicaly teleported.

But it require one of the most important and one of the first thing to make such a game a bit immersive... a day and night cycle and a world in which days and hours exists.

If you don't want to break any sense of immersion without a real full cost day and night cycle make it like it was done 20 years ago.

1) 1 atmosphere during the day with NPC doing their NPC's stuff.
2) night has come. Beautifull cinematic to make the transition.
3) 1 atmosphere at night with NPC's doing their.NPC's things at night. You don't need a bed for everyone. Some activities in the night doesn't require a bed.
4) day has come. Beautifull cinematic to make the transition.

Making such a game without a day and night cycle is a shame.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Although one mythic path gives you a dragon companion.
up

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Originally Posted by SerraSerra
That being said, I am really getting annoyed by how your post and several others in the past weeks/months construct a straw man to try and degenerate the discussions on this forum into a kind of idiotic gamergate reactionary bullshit. Gay people exist, feminine males and masculine females and everything in between exists, people having sexual intercourse with whomever they want exist, so please do yourself a favour and take your bullshit attempts to politicize games back to /pol or parler. It really blows my mind that such narrow-minded frustrated infantile idiots like you feel the constant need to bring up other people's sexuality and gender experience on a forum about a videogame set in an imaginary world. Like what the fuck is wrong with you guys, if you're so obsessed by the gay and queer perhaps you should start questioning yourself why the fuck you even care this much about it as apparently most other people seem to simply not care how people think about and what they do about their genitalia and agree it is total bullshit to oppress people because of what they say, think, and do with said genitalia. I can't stop thinking about that Hungarian anti-gay EU parliamentarian who made his career out of targeting LGTBQ and the "gender" agenda and got caught with plenty of mdma pills and other drugs on a clandestine gay chem-sex party during lockdown. Kinda validates my hypothesis that the most vocal opponents of 'the gay' are those who truly feel 'the call of the gay' inside of them but chose to fight it - and thus themselves - instead of simply embracing their own homo-erotic fantasies and without realizing the fact that they feel so threatened by 'the gay' living rent free in their heads is more telling about their own fragile sexuality in denial than about 'the gay' and society ...
Now please bugger off and take your cringe anti-woke crusade somewhere else. Btw, I hope you're aware the father of modern computing - Alan Turing - was gay too, so while you think you're probably super funny edgy and hetero you're actually wasting your live on a machine invented by a gay man - how ironic.

Well said. It is also my experience that virtually all anti-gay or anti "woke" are at a minimum assholes and almost always closeted and self hating homosexual curious.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Icelyn
Originally Posted by Tuco
There are many, more imaginative ways that games could use to "unlock fast travel" if they really tried. For instance an open world game could have a ground mount and then a flying mount later on, even ON TOP of a (less forgiving) network of portals.
But I'm digressing a bit since these are not examples that apply to BG3, specifically.
I love dragon mounts. grin
Well, In WotR you have to do with dinosaur mounts.
Although one mythic path gives you a dragon companion. No idea if you can use him as mount though.
And another path lets you become a dragon, but technically you are no mount.

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Originally Posted by _Vic_
I do not know why you have to choose when you could have both. PF: WoTR comes next month so we could play it until bg3 finally comes, they do not even overlap. Honestly, I´ll be happy to have several games to choose from, some time ago finding a CRPG game in between a tide of MMORPGS or shooters was a titan´s quest.


Anyway, the new trailer of WoTR looks good




That said, it seems there are some strong feelings about that, judging by the comments and images you can find online.

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Shit, no Astarion in WoTR? I guess it's a buy from me.

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Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
Not gonna lie, that last picture kinda shot down any interest I had for the game.
..And not just because I loathe the stupid virgin/chad thing.

But I guess different taste for different people?
Or the game is actually pretty good, but some of the fanbase is rather inane.

If you're really turned off because someone made a shitty meme, it's worth noting that pretty much the entire rest of the cRPG community sees the Larian fanbase as rather inane too. And I say this as someone that got into cRPGs with DOS2.

I have met many people in the PoE community especially who absolutely refuse to credit DOS2 as being part of the cRPG resurrection at all, let alone contributing much more to the cause than PoE did, which is where the DOS2 VS PoE2 animosity came from back in the day - and now the goalposts have been shifted to the Pathfinder games.

A lot of the flaws of PoE2 and its ultimate failure are now even generally attributed to resources being diverted in an attempt to chase after DOS2's popularity (full voice acting being the big one), at the cost of resources that could have been spent improving the actual game (namely fleshing out the actual companions, the vast majority of the companion quests could be done in less than 10 minutes after you start them, and the dev team were straight up quoted in an interview saying they weren't any meatier because they were expensive to create). This belief has become stronger in the wake of the Pathfinder games releasing afterwards and being overall much better experiences, while not pursuing those design decisions at the expense of the rest of the experience.

Originally Posted by Fox of Embers
I hope BG3 will have mounts. Not because I overly care about them, but it is a good old tradition that Paladins have their special mount and I want to use that at least once.. =P

I would be surprised if BG3 had mounts in any capacity. DnD 5E doesn't officially support it as far as I'm aware (while Pathfinder does), and I'm not sure Larian will go out of their way to introduce that system while opening themselves up for the potential for a lot more bugs. (As in, what happens if you begin a cutscene while mounted? If something happens to you during the cutscene while you're mounted, will it change to account for that mount being there, such as someone physically trying to punch you?)

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
If you're really turned off because someone made a shitty meme, it's worth noting that pretty much the entire rest of the cRPG community sees the Larian fanbase as rather inane too. And I say this as someone that got into cRPGs with DOS2.

I have met many people in the PoE community especially who absolutely refuse to credit DOS2 as being part of the cRPG resurrection at all, let alone contributing much more to the cause than PoE did, which is where the DOS2 VS PoE2 animosity came from back in the day. A lot of the flaws of PoE2 and its ultimate failure are now even generally attributed to resources being diverted in an attempt to chase after DOS2's popularity (full voice acting being the big one), at the cost of resources that could have been spent improving the actual game (namely fleshing out the actual companions, the vast majority of the companion quests could be done in less than 10 minutes after you start them, and the dev team were straight up quoted in an interview saying they weren't any meatier because they were expensive to create).

Well, it is mostly because none of the mentioned things interest me. And the way it was presented made it worse.
And I did not really liked Pathfinder when it came out. Don't have an opinion about the current edition, since I do not know it.
But I am just not a fan of the 3rd edition of D&D. Only played it because there where neither games nor rounds where I could stay at the 2nd.


I mostly joined because I do have fun in BG3, I have not really played any D:OS games. Tried out D:OS on console, but my console died a while ago. I did play the other Divinity games, but they are kinda hard to compare. ;-)

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The PF ruleset is essentially 3E on crack, unless I'm missing something, and WotR would appear to be using the full load of rules plus supplements, which on one hand is cool for those among us of the nerdy pursuasion, but on the other hand is an absolute nightmare to get into for more casual people. And WotR is centered around taking that whole path from relative obscurity up to demigod level and eventually punching dragons on the nose when they misbehave, isn't it?

Looking back, neither BG1 nor BG2 nor PST were that kind of over the top "clash of the titans" combat simulators. ToB and the IWD games were, arguably, and that's probably why they are generally less fondly remembered than what I feel is the case for BG1, SoA, and Planescape Torment. The awesome part of those games was going around to different places and having that "party of adventurers on adventure" experience. The combat itself was something to do, but it was never the main focus. And particularly in BG1 and PST, it really wasn't that good, was it? It got your pulse up, it was a change of pace, but it wasn't the thing that kept one coming back.

Thus if that is ultimately where WotR is aiming, and given the PF rules and the 25 classes and the thousands of perks and whatnot I kind of suspect that to be the case, then I really don't see a Baldur's Gate title ever being serious competition. Crazy high level encounters is just not what the franchise is about, is it?

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I notice one thing that hasn't been brought up in this topic yet is the OST.

WotR's OST in particular has absolutely blown me away thus far. There's sheer variety in it since it appears the game has taken the stance of having regional/path-specific themes just like Kingmaker did, except they're a lot more distinct this time around. For instance, Kingmaker had one single world map theme. WotR has 3 known themes so far, one for chapter 1, and the other two looping between each other for chapters 2-3. (Chapter 4 doesn't have one, since you have no access to the world map for the entire duration of that chapter.)

There's also something like 7 different combat themes off the top of my head thus far, not counting the boss themes. Could be more than that. Though thematically, the themes are pretty epic, for lack of a better descriptor.

BG3's OST in comparison isn't quite there yet, but maybe it'll improve over time. Or it may largely remain the same thematically, since it appears the game is taking the approach of the quieter atmospheric route.

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Well, 'Planescape: Torment' climbed up to INSANE power scale in its latter half, actually. From a certain point on it was basically a battle of demigods, even if combat wasn't exactly its main focus, in general.


One of my favorite things about both Kingmaker and WoTR is that it's basically character creation porn. You can spend hours just coming up with builds and combinations.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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If there's one thing that disappoints me about 5E as a whole thus far, as someone who got into DnD with 5E, it's the relative lack of build variety in comparison to the Pathfinder franchise. I can't go make an Arcane Archer without feeling like something is majorly missing or going very off-flavor from the spirit of the original class design. Even the actual Arcane Archer fighter subclass in 5E is mostly about having enchanted arrows, while missing the actual spells to go along with it - and I suspect this is one of the subclasses that may make it into BG3 in the end.

It's to the level that I consider College of Valor Bard to be a better Arcane Archer than the actual Fighter subclass, and that's also a subclass that's very likely to make it into BG3 when the Bard class is released for us. I feel like getting access to double attack while having full spellcaster progression is going to be very powerful utility-wise in BG3.

It's why I was so fascinated by Solasta's homebrew wizard Greenmage subclass, even if it was less optimal than the horribly busted Shock Arcanist subclass. And Pathfinder's Eldritch Archer (and let's add Dragon's Dogma Magick Archer to this) was exactly what I'd been envisioning when I think of a proper Arcane Archer. Straight up casting spells through your bow is very visually pleasing.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Shit, no Astarion in WoTR? I guess it's a buy from me.

I think this is the most Astarion like companion on WotR (still a far way off from the original)



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Woljif is actually somewhat self-aware too, up to a certain extent. He is Chaotic Neutral IIRC. His combat lines are pretty hilarious, outright revealing that he knows he isn't beating anything in a straight fight, so he's relying on you to distract the enemies so that he can run off and sneak attack. He'll also say that it's your fault if he drops to critical HP, in which case... He's not wrong.

Daeran has far more similarities to Astarion than Woljif does, but still fundamentally different in many ways (for one, he's actually the party's dedicated healer, but also a very potent nuker utilizing elements that most enemies in the game don't have any resistance to). He has a lot of hidden depth that later made him one of my most favorite evil companions ever, and said depth for him and Regill in particular makes it very easy to include them in a good-aligned party without twisting yourselves into pretzels trying to justify it. Pay attention to what Daeran directs his ire towards, and the few rare things he chooses to praise. He may seem like someone lashing out against the world, but you'll start noticing that he has actual reasons and targets for that. He did choose to specialize in healing for a reason.

I hope Astarion has as much depth, but we won't know until the full release it seems.

Actually, some of the WotR evil companions are probably among my most favorite (and probably the only ones I've ever liked to begin with, besides Nok-Nok from Kingmaker but I don't exactly consider him actually evil at all). They don't fall into the trap of 'evil = perpetually edgy and chaotically stupid for no real reason'.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by _Vic_
I do not know why you have to choose when you could have both. PF: WoTR comes next month so we could play it until bg3 finally comes, they do not even overlap. Honestly, I´ll be happy to have several games to choose from, some time ago finding a CRPG game in between a tide of MMORPGS or shooters was a titan´s quest.


Anyway, the new trailer of WoTR looks good




That said, it seems there are some strong feelings about that, judging by the comments and images you can find online.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Shit, no Astarion in WoTR? I guess it's a buy from me.
With that logic I would buy it immediately.

Have not bought it yet. That is one detail. I wonder what is true from those + sides I find hard to believe they are all true. From what I have heard though it is truly possible to become a Lich in Pahtfinder 2 as I call it since first Pathfinder was released years ago.

Oh Gosh while you start from level 1 you can really reach level 20 in Pathfinder 2!
I am not so sure I like the Mythic Paths do they belong to even real tabletop Pathfinder rules? I do know the do not exist in DnD 3.5 at least but Pathfinder rules is evolved from Dnd 3.5 and not same.

Well and whats about controlling armies like in Heroes 3 strategy? Sounds like the have 2 games instead of one game.

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Comparing both games having played with both rule sets pathfinder plays off the 3.5 dnd rule set slightly modified so you could call it 3.75. The mechanics have had alot more time in development than 5e. The plus is that brings much much more diversity in character design and progressive options. Down side to the rule set is alot of the classes in pathfinder are not as balanced tuned as 5e your characters using the 5e rule set feel more in line with each other power wise in 5e than they do in pathfinder as time and power goes on.

Same time that being said some of the mechanics in 5e are under tuned and some of the abilities currently in bg3 make it even worst. Duel Wielding in 5e is already weaker than 2 Handed weapon skills this is made more evident the later you play. Additionally BG 3 takes that a step further but not requiring actions to change gear. Something that drastically needs a fix and was ignored in patch 5 despite it being a major detriment to the game as a whole with balance. One of 5E's biggest benefits over the pathfinder system. Additionally they kind of took Wizards and gave them divine spell casting again breaking the rules of the mechanics in all genras of the game. No version of DND has generally allowed wizards to heal without multi-classing.

Graphics Drastically are better in BG3 however at the same time there is a lack of ability to customize your characters size /body type which is a downside this can be done without be commical just by adding body shape varients. Voices are extremely limited and I am a little disappointed by the lack of options for a roll system or the ability to customize your starting equipment. Both games lack in different areas of the character creation in different ways here. However overall the WOTR system currently is much better. Outside physical appearance customization. The portaits are also very limiting in WOTR which is a dissappointement however you can also upload portraits to the game files and get patchs of portraits for it.

Combat the amount of aoe effects / Barrel effects is too high in bg3. Its nice to be able to creatively take advantage of those in some fights but it can be carried too far right now the state of the game is too far status. The Food system made me strait up skip patch 5 as the system for recovery / rest and random encounters is much better than a food system for bg3. I feel a chance at random encounters would be a much better situation to resolve short and long rests than a system with food. The food system IMO is just stupid. Its a time sync that wastes valuable time to be enjoying the game and doing other things. It also removes chances for characters to get some variation and varient loot in there play through. This is something I personally think Larion is squandering adding some random encounters to the resting with a few generic map enviroments would allow characters to get some different stuff in play throughs and allows larion to expand possible items characters can aquiremaking the game feel much more unique than a 1 dimensional play through it currently has with things being static in most cases regarding magical items and fights / locations of fights.

Adding the diversity of random encounters throws off your entire grove and would make barrel mancy as you call it feel less of a thing it also gives them the opportunity to expand on terrain / different situations where encounters could have different advantages and disadvantages to players on the whole having a set of maps that generate randomly to an extent would help a HUGE amount with this It would also take away your ability to prepare for certain encounters.

4 Player party vs 6 player party this is another detriment to BG3 the 4 character party really limits what you can do with the group especially when you factor in mercenarys that were mentions down the road. Which is also in WOTR. Having that option for a custom party and having a 6 character party lets you get those story elements in with other characters and still lets you build the party the way you want. It also helps with having a necessary diversity to deal with different situations and encounters. Thinking of your typical party what comes to mind is wanting that diversity in your setup wanting 1 character to heal, wanting your skill based character in a rogue or a bard, your ranged caster, your melee fighter and your melee tank. + the additional off setting character who might be a ranged dps, a divine caster ect. There is more diversity options for you to customize your party the way you want to build it having a larger group.

Level limits - Right now BG3 doesnt have its maximum level limit additionall 5E is more limited in maximum levels than pathfinder is with a level 20 soft cap and with optional rules level 25+ epic boons. Pathfinder doesnt really have the same limitations as epic levels gives options to go much higher. Which creates obsurdity in creating challenge for characters your talking characters with virtual omni-slash casting wish twice a turn ect. BG 3 having a soft cap of what will probably be 12-16 with full release is kind of good it gives the game options for DLC content. I give BG3 a + for doing this. It also makes multi-classing more viable if they fix the other combat issues.

Back attacks and flanking. This is something else larion needs to address while i dont mind the height advantage personally and ability to take advantage of fights in combat. Combat should still require flanking to get a backstab effect. No Flanking no back stab. WOTR wins that argument.

Companions - Not a fair comparision here as well the game is currently much further along with WOTR. That being said Larion has a very long ways to go to catch up here and I personally feel there is so much opportunity for them to do this better than they currently are. But the characters that do exist are currently better fleshed out on the whole to an extent personality wise. Mounts do give WOTR some edge here as well however to fight back. Also what companions you like and dont like will vary from person to person personally I do not think asterion is my favorite companion so that's a matter of perspective. Like wise with quote "Waifu's". Matter of preferance that varies from person to person. I personally enjoy the stories for shadowheart and Wyll much more overall. #glad to see that shadowheart got some love but its not going to make me play patch 5.

Item state BG3 currently loses drastically. Additionally they need dye options for armor your character you want them to look a certain way its an important option to have. In addition to lack of diversity. Alot of items feel too generic as well like +1 flat bonus items just feel lack luster get more creative please.

Classes / Races - in the end BG3 probably should not try to be Pathfinder with classes but they should be much further along personally I think than they are currently considering both games entered development at the same time. BG3 should be pumping out the base classes like they are hot potatoes and I do think that given the time they have had in comparison to each other the level limits should be alot more in line. If you can hit level 6 off whats available it should be an option. I can get the time needed to work on multi classing but larion should be pumping out a core class /sub class every other month if not every 3rd month at least right now they are way behind based on what we can see in comparison to state of WOTR. Larion puts out 1 class WOTR puts out 3 classes and 15 subclasses in same length of time. Right now they are looking very very bad on this front. It does take time to flesh out but having it there sooner just feels good right now it feels like larion is focusing on things. Not all but a lot of people do not care about as much for early access. Things that get tuned more over time and ignoring larger issues which is why I skipped patch 5 myself all together. But have kept peeking back on. Given context of whats missing from the PHB BG3 should have more races than pathfinder in the end if larion follows through and there is opportunity to do a much better job on this again if they follow through. I will be dissapointed if we dont get Aasimar however despite that I dont see them being a priority to get pushed out. I think dragonborn should be next in line for both body type niche and to see if larion can handle putting out a monstrous race. As it could be very lack luster if they do a shitty job at it.

Good vs Evil - This is probably in the games biggest detriments currently right now BG3 good vs evil does not feel rewarding in any way. These choices should matter way way more there is no real strong feeling benefit to the choice to be evil over good currently. If anything it feels like you lose more by choosing the evil path and you detriment yourself. In some cases it doesnt even feel like the choice you make makes any difference at all its like do you want the cinnimon buns or the apple. Ill take the cinnimon buns...You recieve 1 apple. That is not a choice thats a masked forced decision...LAME. Larion really needs to get its act together on this and I personally would call them out on it especially with the pre-early access push with play the evil path we want to see what happens when people are evil...here I will say larion did a down right toilet job on this so far. Utter Garbage. There are games out there those choices really feel like they matter and that it changes the game this is not one of those situations. It feels like you either did nothing or you just got dumped on for being evil. Losing companions, Losing access to items. Why on earth would you want to be evil when you just lose out more and more in doing so. There are so many opportunities for them to do so much better with this it honestly makes me want to puke a little with just HOW BAD of a job they are doing on it. They could be giving you different Items for joining the dark side changing up your companions making you feel like those choices matter so so much more. Gaining characters like minthra, Kagha ect would make the game feel so much better in place of other existing characters because you chose a different path. Getting different quests from companions having different paths and avenues to visit. Maybe recieving an unholy weapon or getting special rewards for a different choice. Different shops. Different Locations to consider kind of like your home base. Changing the asthetics of things around camp. So many many squandered opportunities here. This is something WOTR has done a much much better job with despite I am not a huge fan of the mythic path system being so previlent in some ways it feels alot more like your choices matter. Choices should matter and there should be rewards and losses depending what path you choose it also again like random encounters adds a tone of replayability taking away from what feels like a forced path through the game. This is something larion really really needs to get there act together on and right now is probably in the top 3 things that really makes it feel like in the end BG3 might long term lose respect of players for doing a very bad job on. Choices feel weak.

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Originally Posted by acatlas
Comparing both games having played with both rule sets pathfinder plays off the 3.5 dnd rule set slightly modified so you could call it 3.75. The mechanics have had alot more time in development than 5e. The plus is that brings much much more diversity in character design and progressive options. Down side to the rule set is alot of the classes in pathfinder are not as balanced tuned as 5e your characters using the 5e rule set feel more in line with each other power wise in 5e than they do in pathfinder as time and power goes on.

Same time that being said some of the mechanics in 5e are under tuned and some of the abilities currently in bg3 make it even worst. Duel Wielding in 5e is already weaker than 2 Handed weapon skills this is made more evident the later you play. Additionally BG 3 takes that a step further but not requiring actions to change gear. Something that drastically needs a fix and was ignored in patch 5 despite it being a major detriment to the game as a whole with balance. One of 5E's biggest benefits over the pathfinder system. Additionally they kind of took Wizards and gave them divine spell casting again breaking the rules of the mechanics in all genras of the game. No version of DND has generally allowed wizards to heal without multi-classing.

Graphics Drastically are better in BG3 however at the same time there is a lack of ability to customize your characters size /body type which is a downside this can be done without be commical just by adding body shape varients. Voices are extremely limited and I am a little disappointed by the lack of options for a roll system or the ability to customize your starting equipment. Both games lack in different areas of the character creation in different ways here. However overall the WOTR system currently is much better. Outside physical appearance customization. The portaits are also very limiting in WOTR which is a dissappointement however you can also upload portraits to the game files and get patchs of portraits for it.

Combat the amount of aoe effects / Barrel effects is too high in bg3. Its nice to be able to creatively take advantage of those in some fights but it can be carried too far right now the state of the game is too far status. The Food system made me strait up skip patch 5 as the system for recovery / rest and random encounters is much better than a food system for bg3. I feel a chance at random encounters would be a much better situation to resolve short and long rests than a system with food. The food system IMO is just stupid. Its a time sync that wastes valuable time to be enjoying the game and doing other things. It also removes chances for characters to get some variation and varient loot in there play through. This is something I personally think Larion is squandering adding some random encounters to the resting with a few generic map enviroments would allow characters to get some different stuff in play throughs and allows larion to expand possible items characters can aquiremaking the game feel much more unique than a 1 dimensional play through it currently has with things being static in most cases regarding magical items and fights / locations of fights.

Adding the diversity of random encounters throws off your entire grove and would make barrel mancy as you call it feel less of a thing it also gives them the opportunity to expand on terrain / different situations where encounters could have different advantages and disadvantages to players on the whole having a set of maps that generate randomly to an extent would help a HUGE amount with this It would also take away your ability to prepare for certain encounters.

4 Player party vs 6 player party this is another detriment to BG3 the 4 character party really limits what you can do with the group especially when you factor in mercenarys that were mentions down the road. Which is also in WOTR. Having that option for a custom party and having a 6 character party lets you get those story elements in with other characters and still lets you build the party the way you want. It also helps with having a necessary diversity to deal with different situations and encounters. Thinking of your typical party what comes to mind is wanting that diversity in your setup wanting 1 character to heal, wanting your skill based character in a rogue or a bard, your ranged caster, your melee fighter and your melee tank. + the additional off setting character who might be a ranged dps, a divine caster ect. There is more diversity options for you to customize your party the way you want to build it having a larger group.

Level limits - Right now BG3 doesnt have its maximum level limit additionall 5E is more limited in maximum levels than pathfinder is with a level 20 soft cap and with optional rules level 25+ epic boons. Pathfinder doesnt really have the same limitations as epic levels gives options to go much higher. Which creates obsurdity in creating challenge for characters your talking characters with virtual omni-slash casting wish twice a turn ect. BG 3 having a soft cap of what will probably be 12-16 with full release is kind of good it gives the game options for DLC content. I give BG3 a + for doing this. It also makes multi-classing more viable if they fix the other combat issues.

Back attacks and flanking. This is something else larion needs to address while i dont mind the height advantage personally and ability to take advantage of fights in combat. Combat should still require flanking to get a backstab effect. No Flanking no back stab. WOTR wins that argument.

Companions - Not a fair comparision here as well the game is currently much further along with WOTR. That being said Larion has a very long ways to go to catch up here and I personally feel there is so much opportunity for them to do this better than they currently are. But the characters that do exist are currently better fleshed out on the whole to an extent personality wise. Mounts do give WOTR some edge here as well however to fight back. Also what companions you like and dont like will vary from person to person personally I do not think asterion is my favorite companion so that's a matter of perspective. Like wise with quote "Waifu's". Matter of preferance that varies from person to person. I personally enjoy the stories for shadowheart and Wyll much more overall. #glad to see that shadowheart got some love but its not going to make me play patch 5.

Item state BG3 currently loses drastically. Additionally they need dye options for armor your character you want them to look a certain way its an important option to have. In addition to lack of diversity. Alot of items feel too generic as well like +1 flat bonus items just feel lack luster get more creative please.

Classes / Races - in the end BG3 probably should not try to be Pathfinder with classes but they should be much further along personally I think than they are currently considering both games entered development at the same time. BG3 should be pumping out the base classes like they are hot potatoes and I do think that given the time they have had in comparison to each other the level limits should be alot more in line. If you can hit level 6 off whats available it should be an option. I can get the time needed to work on multi classing but larion should be pumping out a core class /sub class every other month if not every 3rd month at least right now they are way behind based on what we can see in comparison to state of WOTR. Larion puts out 1 class WOTR puts out 3 classes and 15 subclasses in same length of time. Right now they are looking very very bad on this front. It does take time to flesh out but having it there sooner just feels good right now it feels like larion is focusing on things. Not all but a lot of people do not care about as much for early access. Things that get tuned more over time and ignoring larger issues which is why I skipped patch 5 myself all together. But have kept peeking back on. Given context of whats missing from the PHB BG3 should have more races than pathfinder in the end if larion follows through and there is opportunity to do a much better job on this again if they follow through. I will be dissapointed if we dont get Aasimar however despite that I dont see them being a priority to get pushed out. I think dragonborn should be next in line for both body type niche and to see if larion can handle putting out a monstrous race. As it could be very lack luster if they do a shitty job at it.

Good vs Evil - This is probably in the games biggest detriments currently right now BG3 good vs evil does not feel rewarding in any way. These choices should matter way way more there is no real strong feeling benefit to the choice to be evil over good currently. If anything it feels like you lose more by choosing the evil path and you detriment yourself. In some cases it doesnt even feel like the choice you make makes any difference at all its like do you want the cinnimon buns or the apple. Ill take the cinnimon buns...You recieve 1 apple. That is not a choice thats a masked forced decision...LAME. Larion really needs to get its act together on this and I personally would call them out on it especially with the pre-early access push with play the evil path we want to see what happens when people are evil...here I will say larion did a down right toilet job on this so far. Utter Garbage. There are games out there those choices really feel like they matter and that it changes the game this is not one of those situations. It feels like you either did nothing or you just got dumped on for being evil. Losing companions, Losing access to items. Why on earth would you want to be evil when you just lose out more and more in doing so. There are so many opportunities for them to do so much better with this it honestly makes me want to puke a little with just HOW BAD of a job they are doing on it. They could be giving you different Items for joining the dark side changing up your companions making you feel like those choices matter so so much more. Gaining characters like minthra, Kagha ect would make the game feel so much better in place of other existing characters because you chose a different path. Getting different quests from companions having different paths and avenues to visit. Maybe recieving an unholy weapon or getting special rewards for a different choice. Different shops. Different Locations to consider kind of like your home base. Changing the asthetics of things around camp. So many many squandered opportunities here. This is something WOTR has done a much much better job with despite I am not a huge fan of the mythic path system being so previlent in some ways it feels alot more like your choices matter. Choices should matter and there should be rewards and losses depending what path you choose it also again like random encounters adds a tone of replayability taking away from what feels like a forced path through the game. This is something larion really really needs to get there act together on and right now is probably in the top 3 things that really makes it feel like in the end BG3 might long term lose respect of players for doing a very bad job on. Choices feel weak.
I have not played Pathfinder 2 so can not really comment on that. Regarding your subjective taste on BG3 I will not either comment since all can give reviews as they want. Thank you for the review it was interesting to read and I respect your opinion though not necessary agree 100% with all things you said.

That said I find your estimate of max level for BG3 as level 12-16 to be at least slightly to optimistic from your view. Personally I have never liked super high level content unless you perhaps really earn it and it feels like a truly long time achievement. Max level what I believe in BG3 to be at full release is between level 10-14. Have I some inside information I know it will be so? No that is my best estimate and guess. Regardless if your or mine guess about max level is correct it is true BG3 could get an expansion that raise max level even up to level 20. However a possible expanison of BG3 is far in future and now want first full release of the BG3 game.

My estimate on BG3 full release date? No I do not know this either, but if I give my best guess on BG3 full release date October-December 2022 or between January-December 2023.

Last edited by Terminator2020; 12/08/21 09:25 PM.
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