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!excite

Preferably without spoiling me too much, is there a class in WotR that's particularly bad for my MC, a role that the (important/"cannon") companions fill/overfill?

E.g., in Kingmaker Amiri always joins you, Linzi is the chronicler of your adventurers, and you get 2 clerics (one of which has strong ties to the story), so picking a MC Barbarian/Bard/Cleric is a bit redundant. (I want to argue that Valerie is also a "core companion," but that's probably because of my personal preferences to not play a tank, meaning that she is ~required in all my Km parties).

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There are a lot of healers or characters capable of healing among the companions. Two dedicated full divine casters too. Three dedicated longbow archers (though one can be switched to short bow easily, another can be switched to throwing axes, and two of them are mutually exclusive as in you have to pick one of them to accompany you).

I’m still running Eldritch Archer with the two archers still in my party. Especially since my main party would be lacking an arcane caster otherwise. Archer supremacy!

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Very little about any bugs, actually.

Look at this one: https://screenrant.com/pathfinder-wrath-righteous-game-review/: "Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous comes close to living up to the legend of Baldur's Gate 2, but it's filled to the brim with bugs."

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
!excite

Preferably without spoiling me too much, is there a class in WotR that's particularly bad for my MC, a role that the (important/"cannon") companions fill/overfill?

E.g., in Kingmaker Amiri always joins you, Linzi is the chronicler of your adventurers, and you get 2 clerics (one of which has strong ties to the story), so picking a MC Barbarian/Bard/Cleric is a bit redundant. (I want to argue that Valerie is also a "core companion," but that's probably because of my personal preferences to not play a tank, meaning that she is ~required in all my Km parties).
If you are talking roles (its implausible to reach all classes), there are roughly two for every basic RPG role

Three fighters (Pally, Slayer and hellknight)

Three ranged fighters ( you can only pick two)

Two rangers (demon and undead)

two dedicated healers (oracle and cleric)

A pure wizard

An eldrich rogue ( rogue with wizard spellcasting)

Two versatile casters ( Shaman and witch)

Optionally there are also some companions tied to some of the Mythic paths, the pets you can also level up and equip with items and the talking weapon (for banters only)


So I think you can be any class you want, you can make a party that suits you.

Last edited by _Vic_; 01/09/21 07:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ikke
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Very little about any bugs, actually.

Look at this one: https://screenrant.com/pathfinder-wrath-righteous-game-review/: "Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous comes close to living up to the legend of Baldur's Gate 2, but it's filled to the brim with bugs."

We do know there’s going to be a day one patch, so we’ll see then.

It doesn’t seem like it’s going to be anywhere near as bad as the shitshow that Kingmaker launch was. The last 2-3 chapters were straight up unfinished there.

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Thanks Saito and _Vic_! Looks like I'll be staying away from making my first MC a ranger, ranged fighter, or a divine caster. Hmmmm I could recreate my magus character from kingmaker...or maybe a sorcerer; a Cha-based MC class is always helpful in rpgs...although Cavalier o.O

@_Vic_ I enjoy how in most of the ()'s you listed the (sub)class names, then for the rangers you listed "(demon and undead)." xD

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Sozz
There's some interesting reference material in the extras to go through in the mean time. My biggest worry for this game is keeping my expectations in check considering how much it's been talked up around here.
Expectations that are unreasonably high are always the core problem that keep people from enjoying anything in life, video games included. wink

Personally don't really have many expectations thus far, as I've tried not to delve too deeply into looking things up about the setting or the game as a whole. I only checked out some of the companions, and which were romance options, as well as a cursory look at the classes available - but everything will be pretty fresh going in, so I hope to have a good time! I can be a little picky with cRPGs, but if it's anything to the polish of Pillars of Eternity on release, I at least anticipate it hooking me in the first hour or so. smile

Originally Posted by Sancrest
Well I was interested in Pathfinder but I won't be buying the game after reading this discussion. To be honest the reason is what I have seen here, comparing apples and oranges and telling people orange is objectively a better fruit and some people off key belittling BG3 fandom pushed me away. I grew up playing cRPG's and Desktop FRP games, both games does things correctly or wrong. Both Pathfinder and Baldur's Gate 3 are enjoyable games but elitist people who thinks they have right to force their opinion on others aggressively telling people that they have to like WotF is wrong.

I played Baldur's Gate 1&2 several times, I don't think mechanics-wise BG3 is a successor but for me it doesn't have to be 1-1 same mechanics. What I experienced from BG3 is a semblance of a desktop FRP game. Classes are what I expect them to be, characters are fun, since we only played the opening act we only scratched the surface.

Pathfinder Kingmaker was the cRPG I love. I enjoyed the game, characters and environments.

I will not play WotF, am I missing out, certainly. It will be the first cRPG I will not play. Thanks to the fans of the game.

This stance seems... very silly to me, if you want my honest opinion. I full well understand wanting to avoid a fandom for reasons such as stated, but avoiding the product itself simply because of a few people early on in the thread (many of whom either had some... very strange ways of thinking, or were simply trolls) just seems like shooting yourself in the foot for no real reason. Why deprive yourself of something you're sure to love simply due to a few less-than-stellar people using the game as a thinly-veiled way to beat at BG3 with sticks? It's your choice in the end, but it just doesn't seem like that understandable of a position or way of thinking. I hope you reconsider and enjoy WotR along with many others, including some of us here on the forums!

Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Nice basic WoTr guide if starting out with this series.

I... may check this out here before bed, just to be prepared for tomorrow a wee bit. Thanks!

Originally Posted by _Vic_
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
!excite

Preferably without spoiling me too much, is there a class in WotR that's particularly bad for my MC, a role that the (important/"cannon") companions fill/overfill?

E.g., in Kingmaker Amiri always joins you, Linzi is the chronicler of your adventurers, and you get 2 clerics (one of which has strong ties to the story), so picking a MC Barbarian/Bard/Cleric is a bit redundant. (I want to argue that Valerie is also a "core companion," but that's probably because of my personal preferences to not play a tank, meaning that she is ~required in all my Km parties).
If you are talking roles (its implausible to reach all classes), there are roughly two for every basic RPG role

Three fighters (Pally, Slayer and hellknight)

Three ranged fighters ( you can only pick two)

Two rangers (demon and undead)

two dedicated healers (oracle and cleric)

A pure wizard

An eldrich rogue ( rogue with wizard spellcasting)

Two versatile casters ( Shaman and witch)

Optionally there are also some companions tied to some of the Mythic paths, the pets you can also level up and equip with items and the talking weapon (for banters only)


So I think you can be any class you want, you can make a party that suits you.

This is a good run-down to keep note of, as I try not to overburden my party with too many of the same thing if I can help it. I still often tend to run with characters I like best, of course, but having these footnotes will at least assist in planning out my first run through.

Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by Ikke
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Very little about any bugs, actually.

Look at this one: https://screenrant.com/pathfinder-wrath-righteous-game-review/: "Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous comes close to living up to the legend of Baldur's Gate 2, but it's filled to the brim with bugs."

We do know there’s going to be a day one patch, so we’ll see then.

It doesn’t seem like it’s going to be anywhere near as bad as the shitshow that Kingmaker launch was. The last 2-3 chapters were straight up unfinished there.

Here's hoping the bugs aren't that bad - though with any luck I'll be home and ready to play it after the day one patch is out.

Last edited by MarbleNest; 02/09/21 02:18 AM.
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Basically I stopped looking too deeply into the game when I heard there might be mounted combat in it, I've been waiting for someone to make an attempt at this sorely underappreciated type of combat for a long time. I don't really have very high expectations, but as long as it's more engaging than Mount and Blade, I'll consider it a win.
Of course I would have played it eventually but this made me want to get on it early.

What I'm not really interested in is level 20+ play but I'm not so put off by it that I won't be able to enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I don't really have very high expectations, but as long as it's more engaging than Mount and Blade, I'll consider it a win.
I mean, they couldn't be more different if they tried, so that's a weird comparison to make.


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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
@_Vic_ I enjoy how in most of the ()'s you listed the (sub)class names, then for the rangers you listed "(demon and undead)." xD

Fair warning, undead ranger is only a party member if you pursue the Lich mythic path. Every other mythic path either doesn't get an additional party member or gets something entirely different instead.

For example, Azata gets a dragonling that, on top of the usual dragon things, gains access to divine spells that gets stronger throughout the course of the game, along with her dragon breaths eventually having friendly fire removed. It's speculated that she'll eventually grow into a size where your character can mount and ride her into combat too, if you're built for that.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 02/09/21 07:31 AM.
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It's not speculated, it's a fact. But I can't help but question the wisdom of using the dragon as a mere mount when it's a fucking powerhouse in combat as a caster/buffer.


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Eh. It might not be optimal, but at least it's interesting.

Sadly I don't think ranged mounted combat is a thing. Only thing more hilarious than blasting things with a spell and a volley of arrows in the same turn is doing it while mounted on a dragon that has 60 feet of movement per turn.

Though it's probably a bad idea, considering that I've observed that mounted combat currently involves merging the animal companion and rider's turns into one, so you can't do something like, say, move using the animal companion's turn and still get full attacks with the rider. Having Seelah riding her mount in combat came with a significant downside in that her mount lost the ability to trip enemies while she was riding it (assuming you built her animal companion for that), though it had other just as significant upsides such as essentially eliminating her movement speed penalty from heavy armor.

---

So I decided to do a brief write-up on the differences between Kingmaker and WotR's 'management' systems.

It is really much, MUCH less overbearing than it was in Kingmaker. The issue with Kingmaker's management system was that it grinded your adventuring to a halt, along with imposing hidden timers on top of that. WotR's system has none of that.

1) You get to move your armies on the world map on the same interface that your party travels with.

2) Advisors exist, but you don't really deal with any of that, the party members basically assign themselves in the background (more on this in point 4). Projects are just a thing you can do, and mostly involve restoring artifacts into one of several different gear options that take several in-game days to resolve. You can start on these projects from anywhere on the world map.

3) You'll still occasionally have to return to the hub area to resolve some issues in the crusade, but you'll be naturally doing that while questing and offloading your loot anyway. Moreover, the crusade system does not bug you with RNG opportunity/problem stuff.

4) The issues I speak of above are actually very involved, and surprisingly well written. What basically happens is that some logistics issue pops up, which range from recruits possibly deserting, supply problems, how the troops should be trained to counter certain enemy tactics, and concerns from the Queen's nobility that you're not paying enough fealty to them since they're financing your army. An advisor directly sent from the Queen's court will hold a meeting with you and several self-appointed party members in these situations. Said advisor and the party members bounce ideas on how to resolve said issue off of each other, and you get to side with one of them after hearing their arguments. Some of the arguments are quite frankly amazing and does a lot to reinforce each party member's personality and backgrounds. (Your character also gets the option of calling out certain party members for inviting themselves into these meetings, like Woljif butting into a meeting about resources and finances even though everyone knows he's a damn thief.)

5) There's no right or wrong choice with the above - usually, what each choice results in is the ability to unlock a new unit type for your armies, directly recruiting additional units, upgrading existing units, or increased finances. It is worth noting that these meetings are one-off deals and there's actual continuity with them, unlike Kingmaker's repeating opportunity/problem cards.

6) There are really no hard timers. The only timers for the crusade system that really existed during beta were the daily movement limit on your armies, the weekly recruitment quota, and the project timers. Nothing that would result in a game over if ignored, because... There's really nothing that needs your immediate attention or to ignore.

Take my word for it as someone that has played Kingmaker and WotR beta front to back, the 'management' system of WotR is nowhere near comparable to Kingmaker's in terms of actual execution.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 02/09/21 09:37 AM.
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I actually didn't dislike the Kingdom management aspect at all (even if I concede that some aspects of it could have been made far less obfuscating) and I found the little I tried of the army system in the WotR beta far less likable.

Also, anyone who's going in expecting to like it because they liked Heroes of Might and Magic 3 (and who didn't, really?) may be in for a big disappointment.
Unless massive improvements were made since Beta 3, the system felt extremely undercooked.


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I think of it as a fun diversion that doesn't really overstay its welcome. But considering how the system changed throughout the testing period, and that it was really underbaked until like beta 2/3, I'm really hoping that Owlcat just decides to ditch all of the management systems for their next game and just focus on delivering a solid traditional experience. Like I got the impression they bit off way more than they could chew with developing the crusade system.

My views of the management stuff at this point in time is approaching my views on the Origin system that DOS2 and seemingly BG3 employs - resources that would be better allocated elsewhere. Although I can at least say that the management stuff actually adds to the game's narrative, while the origin system comes to the detriment of it.

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I can understand the (no pun intended) potential origin of the origins; many rpg players, when presented with a preset, will usually go along with that. Remember the constenation amongst 'journalists' when it was found out that something daft like 93% of Mass Effect player's went with the male shepard, with the default appearence, with the default class of Soldier? Origins is a way for players who aren't confident to get a few 'template' options for people.

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Odd.

WotR needed an update this morning on Steam, which went through fine and has finished up.

But it's still sitting in my downloads queue saying an update is required. Queueing it up simply has it hang there for a second then drop back into inactivity - I assume perhaps the continued "update required" is something it can only do once the game is live?

Last edited by MarbleNest; 02/09/21 12:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sozz
I don't really have very high expectations, but as long as it's more engaging than Mount and Blade, I'll consider it a win.
If that's not a too high of an expectation, then I don't know what is. wink

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I was really struggling to come up with any games that had mounted combat in them, All I could think of was War of the Roses and Mount and Blade.
The mounted combat systems in most rpgs is an afterthought (not surprising considering their dungeon crawl roots) and is given even less consideration in their computer adaptations.

The rules for mounted combat in 5e are vague and not very useful, I remember them being slightly more fleshed out in 3e, which might mean they're more fleshed out in Pathfinder, but that still isn't saying too much.

Last edited by Sozz; 02/09/21 12:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by Human
So I was really interested to find out how kingmaker did in terms of sales just to set expectations of how WoRT can do in comparison:

In March 2020, the Publisher announced that KM and Outward has sold 1.2 Million combined:

https://presse.kochmedia.com/en-AU/...r-Combined-Sales-Exceed-12-Million-Units

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/pres...mbined_Sales_Exceed_12_Million_Units.php

https://twinfinite.net/2020/03/outward-pathfinder-kingmaker-combined-sales-hit-1-2-million/

and one month before that (Feb 2020), Outward has sold 600K:

https://gertlushgaming.co.uk/outward-tops-600k-units-sold-and-releases-official-soundtrack/

https://twinfinite.net/2020/02/open...600000-ost-released-as-digital-download/

So after nearly 18 months, KM has sold 600k units maximum.

we know from Steamspy that KM has sold between 1-2 million.

but we actually can get the exact number from Steamspy if the studio has just one game

and Owlcat just has KM.

https://steamspy.com/dev/Owlcat+Games

Total copies owned: 1,194,000

-----------------------------------------

I am surprised that KM just sold 600k after nearly 18 months. I expected at least 1 million but I guess I set my expectation way too high for a new studio and unpopular IP.

I hope WoTR can reach 1 million in less than 12 months.


Just to update this because we finally have an official number about the sales of KM

https://presse.kochmedia.com/en-US/PATHFINDER-KINGMAKER-HITS-ONE-MILLION-COPIES-SOLD

Pathfinder: Kingmaker has reached 1 million sales worldwide on PC, Xbox One, and PlayStation 4.

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That's excellent news. Hopefully that shows developers, investors, and all the money people that there is money to be made in the CRPG genre, and we get more of them.

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