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Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Don't like the setting or the story, but I can say it is a very well-crafted game.

Plus RTwP is a bless. Nice to see Cohn refusing to play in TB.

Have you tried "Black Geyser, Couriers of darkness"? I was trying the Beta before being engulfed by WoTR and it was pure RTwP. Kinda reminded me of the old 2000s CRPG games like Lionheart, inquisitor, Divine Divinity, etc.

Last edited by _Vic_; 06/09/21 08:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Riandor
There is also too much time spent on a city travel map annoyingly waiting to see if you get into another pointless encounter that you kill in 3 seconds flat (normal difficulty). It feels like pointless time bloat and unnecessary clicking.

Yes it advances time and yes there is a night and day system, but in a city at war and on fire, meh, who cares.

There are also several timed quests and some areas change with the passing of time.
A thousand times better than BG3s never exploding ticking timebomb.
Well if there were, i don't remember seeing any in the first "act", other than when the messenger comes to get you. That is not to say others don't come later on (in fact travelling merchants later on for example I know of), but I was only comparing the EA of BG3 with a finished game, something I feel is unfair anyway. Not to say one cannot point out what is currently lacking in BG3/what one would like to see.

The non exploding timebomb is also inaccurate... what is poorly brought across so far is that we are not changing (at least not in the normal sense), because there is no "time" passing in game, only triggers, and the dialogue doesn't as yet match for me this concept that well, we have rested for 2 weeks and nothing has happened. It would be good if there was a dialogue trigger after so many rests where our companions begin to question what is actually happening.

Frankly in WotR it is the same though. I am in the middle of storming a building and after clearing many rooms I decide , oooof, need a rest. 20hrs later I am fully healed and ready to continue and the poor buggers downstairs are stil slogging it out. Yeah sorry, let's not go down that route, because neither game handles the initial ticking bomb part in any form of realistic manner. And Why not? Because players hate being rushed.

Last edited by Riandor; 06/09/21 08:15 AM.
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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Riandor
There is also too much time spent on a city travel map annoyingly waiting to see if you get into another pointless encounter that you kill in 3 seconds flat (normal difficulty). It feels like pointless time bloat and unnecessary clicking.

Yes it advances time and yes there is a night and day system, but in a city at war and on fire, meh, who cares.

There are also several timed quests and some areas change with the passing of time.
A thousand times better than BG3s never exploding ticking timebomb.
Well if there were, i don't remember seeing any in the first "act", other than when the messenger comes to get you. That is not to say others don't come later on (in fact travelling merchants later on for example I know of), but I was only comparing the EA of BG3 with a finished game, something I feel is unfair anyway. Not to say one cannot point out what is currently lacking in BG3/what one would like to see.

Prisoners get executed when you take too long, the inquisitor finds the ones he hunts for before you do, looters move on while rat swarms come in to eat the dead. There might be even a difference between night and day, but I am not sure about that one.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Riandor
Yes it advances time and yes there is a night and day system, but in a city at war and on fire, meh, who cares.
There are also several timed quests and some areas change with the passing of time.
A thousand times better than BG3s never exploding ticking timebomb.
Well if there were, i don't remember seeing any in the first "act", other than when the messenger comes to get you. That is not to say others don't come later on (in fact travelling merchants later on for example I know of), but I was only comparing the EA of BG3 with a finished game, something I feel is unfair anyway. Not to say one cannot point out what is currently lacking in BG3/what one would like to see.
.

Besides what @Ixal said... I will also add the plagued horses and corpses that start to appear in the market if the corruption spreads too much. Greybor does not appear in the tower of Ebod if you go after the
attack on the tavern
, I think the entire dungeon changes if you go after that. And of course,
defending the Defender´s tabern
event comes after a few days.

Well, at least you have day/night cycles and some places (like the market or Drezen) change after some time if you return to them, or change in a day/night cycle. Some maps or encounters change depending on your decisions
Like the Nabassu, Drezen if you are an Aion, The Summoned Vrock that escapes the circle if you summon him
They even have weather mechanics, with storms and snowfalls appearing on the maps.

I still expect this is a Beta thing in BG3 and they finally created some kind of reactivity. Not environmental reactivity, the maps are well made and you can interact a lot with the world in the beta, but some notion of time passing. They did a step forward with the new camps they included, I hope they come up with more things to make the world more lively.


Originally Posted by Riandor
I think it’s too early to do a fair comparison.


By contrast I have so far had 0 class based options and 1 race based dialogue.


I always get a unique dialogue option before going to retake the Grey Garrison based on the class. When Irabeth Tirabade is talking about the operation says something different depending on your class. Something like "My men will (yada yada) and we will put a strike team to retake the garrison entering from behind. I think you are the one to lead the team with those [sneaky talents/ dominion over nature/ arcane skills/etc]"
Hulrun the inquisitor also address you if you are a Witch

I only played the first chapters but some more will come to mind, like when you met Greybor in Kenabres. There are a few for classes that could "detect magic" (mostly casters)

I get some dialogues about the race ( with Woljif if you are a tiefling, with the bartender and Irabeth if you are a Dhampir, Irabeth being a half-orc or halfling, etc) and a lot of dialogues based on your deity. They expanded the pantheon and now you can worship Gyronna or Lamashtu, for example. Also now all classes get to choose a deity or Atheism.


I do not think this is spoilery but if someone wants me to hide this just say it wink

ed: Edited for clarity.

Last edited by _Vic_; 06/09/21 08:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ixal
Prisoners get executed when you take too long, the inquisitor finds the ones he hunts for before you do, looters move on while rat swarms come in to eat the dead. There might be even a difference between night and day, but I am not sure about that one.

I rushed through the Kanebres city and found everything (I know of) pretty quickly. Don't think any missions were incomplete (that's not to say I didn't miss anything!!). But good to know. Thanks.

Originally Posted by _Vic_
I always get a unique dialogue option before going to retake the Grey Garrison based on the class. When Irabeth Tirabade is talking about the operation says something different depending on your class. Something like "My men will (yada yada) and we will put a strike team to retake the garrison entering from behind. I think you are the one to lead the team with those [sneaky talents/ dominion over nature/ arcane skills/etc]"
Hulrun the inquisitor also address you if you are a Witch

I only played the first chapters but some more will come to mind, like when you met Greybor in Kenabres. There are a few for classes that could "detect magic" (mostly casters)

I get some dialogues about the race ( with Woljif if you are a tiefling, with the bartender and Irabeth if you are a Dhampir, Irabeth being a half-orc or halfling, etc) and a lot of dialogues based on your deity. They expanded the pantheon and now you can worship Gyronna or Lamashtu, for example. Also now all classes get to choose a deity or Atheism.

That is true, there quite a few deity dialogues that add flavour, though I guess you could take or leave them. It's nice that they are there.

I mostly like that the responses have TAGS so that even if the choice itself seems weird, you know what is meant by it. Too many RPG's leave the tags off and you think you are saying or doing a good thing only to then find you kill someone, or piss someone off you dodn't want to!!!

Last edited by Riandor; 06/09/21 08:44 AM.
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Indeed. The deitys and unique dialogues was a kickstarter goal that was funded, so I expect to find more.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
they are based in Russia.
no they not

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The really great thing about all of the unique reactivity with race/class/deity combined with the huge party/party banter possibilities is that it's leading to a lot of people passing notes about what they've seen. It's something I'm greatly enjoying as well, since I know I will never have the time to play through the game in the specific ways needed to witness everything for myself. Everyone's experience is entirely unique.

Kingmaker launch was kind of like that too, although it was more about discussing bugs in the end and damn near everyone being new to the setting/ruleset.

I haven't seen BG3 inspire that kind of behavior among the community just yet. Maybe with full launch it will.

Still, these games are really good at making your main character feel like they are uniquely your own, in a way I struggle to find in any other cRPG I've played for reasons I can't even fathom. It's a lot of small things combining to form a big whole. And somehow it manages this while still featuring companions that have far more depth than most other cRPGs, because it understands the concept of party banter being the primary tool to simultaneously flesh them out and have them feel like they are truly part of the world, rather than clashing with it.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 06/09/21 10:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by arion
Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
they are based in Russia.
no they not

They have offices in Cyprus and Russia. The lead writer and more of the team (Thainen and others answers the questions in the Reddits AMA) are also russian too.

https://owlcatgames.com/

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Originally Posted by _Vic_
They have offices in Cyprus and Russia. The lead writer and more of the team (Thainen and others answers the questions in the Reddits AMA) are also russian too.
https://owlcatgames.com/

Main HQ located in Cyprus now and the company pays taxes there.

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
The really great thing about all of the unique reactivity with race/class/deity combined with the huge party/party banter possibilities is that it's leading to a lot of people passing notes about what they've seen. It's something I'm greatly enjoying as well, since I know I will never have the time to play through the game in the specific ways needed to witness everything for myself. Everyone's experience is entirely unique.

Kingmaker launch was kind of like that too, although it was more about discussing bugs in the end and damn near everyone being new to the setting/ruleset.

I haven't seen BG3 inspire that kind of behavior among the community just yet. Maybe with full launch it will.

Still, these games are really good at making your main character feel like they are uniquely your own, in a way I struggle to find in any other cRPG I've played for reasons I can't even fathom. It's a lot of small things combining to form a big whole. And somehow it manages this while still featuring companions that have far more depth than most other cRPGs, because it understands the concept of party banter being the primary tool to simultaneously flesh them out and have them feel like they are truly part of the world, rather than clashing with it.

+100, especially do the final paragraph.



Honestly, I think my only dislike thus far (aside from the many bugs still riddling it... Daeran is taking a permanent -5 damage which immediately heals back due to a bug with Life Link, and I'm having weird 13% area loading hangups when weather is going on in the area), is the Crusade Mode.

It just feels... bad. There's little strategy to manual fighting besides brute forcing and hoping for the best, with a few skills available from unit types or the general; you lose numbers faster than you can replenish them; strength levels are completely imbalanced, with a level 1 unit somehow able to mow your higher numbers down easily. I was consistently having trouble with advancing and clearing areas to the point I gave up on it and put the whole thing on Auto - which I now can't take back, a decision that seems excessively punishing considering some Mythic paths have quests related to the Crusade Mode later.

It's just not a good addition, and it being so integral to advancing the story and allowing you access to more areas just feels pretty awful because of how badly it's built.

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Heroes of Might and Magic it ain't. It's so far just a slug fest almost devoid of any strategy, a few units have special abilities but without any terrain modifiers to combat or movement it might as well be just an auto-resolve battle.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Heroes of Might and Magic it ain't. It's so far just a slug fest almost devoid of any strategy, a few units have special abilities but without any terrain modifiers to combat or movement it might as well be just an auto-resolve battle.
I have only had the one fight so far with the army and my initial "oooh it's HoMM3 lit" soon evaporated into "what now?". YOu're right, there seems to be too little tactics and just a numbers slog fest and without being able to tell which enemies do what in terms of output and how to counter them. Now, I was hoping that would improve (like I said, one fight isn't really enough to judge), but you're not filling me with confidence here.

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Originally Posted by MarbleNest
Honestly, I think my only dislike thus far (aside from the many bugs still riddling it... Daeran is taking a permanent -5 damage which immediately heals back due to a bug with Life Link, and I'm having weird 13% area loading hangups when weather is going on in the area), is the Crusade Mode.

It just feels... bad. There's little strategy to manual fighting besides brute forcing and hoping for the best, with a few skills available from unit types or the general; you lose numbers faster than you can replenish them; strength levels are completely imbalanced, with a level 1 unit somehow able to mow your higher numbers down easily. I was consistently having trouble with advancing and clearing areas to the point I gave up on it and put the whole thing on Auto - which I now can't take back, a decision that seems excessively punishing considering some Mythic paths have quests related to the Crusade Mode later.

It's just not a good addition, and it being so integral to advancing the story and allowing you access to more areas just feels pretty awful because of how badly it's built.
+1

So far (I've done like 4 Crusade Mode fights), I'm feeling the same. The fights involved basically no strategy and took much too long to complete. Encountering the first couple army battles brought me out of the groove I was in, and I'm slightly dreading booting up WotR again because I know I'll have to slog through more of them. And, as you mention, I can't put the mode on Auto because I'll then be missing out some quests. Hopefully the fights/mode get better late on, but I'm not hopeful at this point...

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Originally Posted by MarbleNest
Originally Posted by kanisatha
I think it is way too simplistic to divide people into two either/or camps of those who are hardcore gamers who like lots of options and complexity versus those who are casual gamers who don't like too many options or much complexity. I am very much a casual gamer, someone who does not have much time at all (sadly) to play video games and who wants to blow through combat quickly without having to put in too much effort. But at the same time I am also very much someone who loves having TONS of options (options are ALWAYS good), options in gameplay, options in character creation and development, options in party composition, options in dialogue and quest resolution, options in settings and difficulty, options everywhere. I also love my RPGs to have complex systems. So exactly where would I fall in this very binary discussion?

It is very much possible to be both a nerd gamer (I am okay with that word as I very proudly consider myself to be the king of nerds, that being a nerd is a very good thing, and society would be way better off if more people were nerds) and a casual gamer at the same time.

+100 to this.

I barely get time to play, and when I do I tend to have to split my time between focusing on stuff in my MMO of choice, or playing single player games from my backlog. I'm quite the definition of a casual gamer in that respect, but I still much prefer and tend to stick longer with games such as WotR/BG1+2+IWD/NWN/PoE/etc. simply due to the sheer amount of choices I can make. Not just in terms of character building on a stat sheet and with skills, but with gear, with dialogue, with alignments, what have you. That sheer feeling of freedom and uniqueness every playthrough is what keeps me coming back, as I never quite feel so static.

In games with less choices (I'll just pick out Mass Effect as an example; one of my favorite games, I routinely replay the trilogy through entirely at least once a year), I tend to go through for the first time and then end up 'stuck' in my initial playstyle and choices. I don't feel a need to try out what other class options there might be, because the selection is more limited, and if what I liked on my first go worked, why would I opt to try the other things that are going to be mostly the same but with a different flavor - and also tend to not have any effect on dialogue or how others respond to me in the course of the game?

I never feel that way with many of my favorite cRPGs.

I do feel like I'll feel that way in BG3, which has been part of the reason I've yet to really finish the whole of what we have in EA. If I know I'll likely be playing this one way (unless they drastically change stuff up and add much more to the table), I'd rather get started on playing that one way fully from beginning to end. So, more than likely I won't really be playing it much anymore until full release.

In that sense, it's sort of 'failed' me as a more 'casual-oriented' game compared to WotR. Neither are bad, but I'm certainly getting more enjoyment - and know I will continue to get much enjoyment in the years to follow - from one over what I feel I'll end up getting from the other.
I am very similar. Because my gametime is limited and therefore precious, I have a relatively small library of games that I play. I'd much rather REplay a game I know for sure I will enjoy playing than play for the first time (just because it's a new game) a game that I am likely to not enjoy much. For a long time I kept replaying the IE games and NwN2. Now I replay P:Km and the PoE games. So it's very nice to be able to add P:WotR (and Black geyser) to that shortlist.

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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Since you have a talking weapon, Finnean, that could be turned into ANY kind of weapon, even ranged, and it's upgradeable the entire campaign I can safely say that there is no such thing as "trap" choices of weapons.

I'm not too sure about that because there's some gaps even with Finnean, there's good long periods where it gets outscaled.

I chose Falchion as my weapon of choice (due to that sweet, sweet crit range), and 40 hours in (I'm playing slow (TB), just getting to Drezen), I've only found a +1 cold iron magic weapon aside from Finnean, which is basically the same thing + Ghosttouch.

Thank god I'm playing a Paladin with Divine Weapon Bond.

I'm sure eventually I'll find something better (I know Finnean gets upgraded after Drezen), but this has been quite a gap in terms of weapon upgrades. Considered respeccing because I've been using better +2 weapons, which I buff to +4 and beyond for bypassing all sorts of DR.

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Originally Posted by MarbleNest
Honestly, I think my only dislike thus far (aside from the many bugs still riddling it... Daeran is taking a permanent -5 damage which immediately heals back due to a bug with Life Link, and I'm having weird 13% area loading hangups when weather is going on in the area), is the Crusade Mode.

It just feels... bad. There's little strategy to manual fighting besides brute forcing and hoping for the best, with a few skills available from unit types or the general; you lose numbers faster than you can replenish them; strength levels are completely imbalanced, with a level 1 unit somehow able to mow your higher numbers down easily. I was consistently having trouble with advancing and clearing areas to the point I gave up on it and put the whole thing on Auto - which I now can't take back, a decision that seems excessively punishing considering some Mythic paths have quests related to the Crusade Mode later.

It's just not a good addition, and it being so integral to advancing the story and allowing you access to more areas just feels pretty awful because of how badly it's built.
You should give them this feedback. Even though the game is now in final release, they will surely be continuing to fix it for some months to come. One of the best characteristics of Owlcat is their strong work ethic and willingness to keep on improving their game for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
No need to get defensive here, I'm just stating facts. Too many option is often as bad as having too few and the developer has to find balance when making a game. Analysis paralysis is a real thing

I have heard this called "The Tyranny of Choice" but I like analysis paralysis better. I felt this way about POE2 and its one of the things I don't like about Pathfinder.


Originally Posted by Alyssa_Fox
If a person never played pathfinder or dnd and just wants to play, let's say, a mage-type character he will have to choose from Alchemist (6 subclasses), Arcanist (6 subclasses), Bard (6 subclasses), Magus (7 subclasses), Sorceror (7 subclasses), Witch (6 subclasses), Wizard (7 subclasses). That's 45 options for an arcane spellcaster. If you aren't into rulebook reading and decide to read about every class you will get bored, if you just randomly pick one you will be frustrated by the fact that you may have picked wrong. You can't win there if you are just an average rpg fan.

Holy crap. Yeah, that's way too much. Striking WoTR off the play list.


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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Don't like the setting or the story, but I can say it is a very well-crafted game.

Plus RTwP is a bless. Nice to see Cohn refusing to play in TB.

Have you tried "Black Geyser, Couriers of darkness"? I was trying the Beta before being engulfed by WoTR and it was pure RTwP. Kinda reminded me of the old 2000s CRPG games like Lionheart, inquisitor, Divine Divinity, etc.

It looks nice. I am hoping for a very creative developer to revitalize RtWP for the modern era.

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I've played a few hours of Black Geyser. Or at least tried a few different characters through the first part.

It's pretty good but I find some things could be improved.


The character creation is a little lacking. The faces look similar for the races. Or at least for the human looking ones. Elves just look like shorter humans. Feldegugs look like humans with blue skin.

One thing I find odd or at least for now is:

[/spoiler]You start out as a servant for Lord Espen. It's revealed pretty quickly that he's your "father". But he's human so if I play as a dwarf, rillow, feldegug, or elf is he really my father? Was I adopted? Why the secrecy then? I can see if he was my biological father [spoiler]

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