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Originally Posted by Tulkash01
Surely you realize how subjective that is, right? Personally I don't find "all companions in WotR to be detestable or annoying". Some I like, some I don't but I try to judge them on the basis of coherence (are they true to the way they are presented? Is their development believable?) and the quality of their quest (the extra content they provide basically).

Of course it's very subjective when it comes what people like. You can be somewhat objective only if you'll make a proper statistical analysis of people preferences. If we go by coherence criteria then only 4 characters fit in the well-written category for me: Camellia, Daeran, Woljif, and Regill. Out of those only Regill is somewhat likeable.

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-Ember: I get why some people don't like her but personally I think she brings quite an unique prospective to the game. The point of her character is that she is a living saint even without mythic powers. She's willing to forgive everything and everyone and she actually has a chance to change people's minds and even their nature. I admit she's not very coherent though (but having her not fighting would be a problem in a game like this). She develops differently depending on the kind of mythic path you choose though and her personal quest is not particularly interesting or deep.
If she's so pacifistic she shouldn't have been a companion, just an NPC. Alternatively, Owlcat should have made a special rules for her in combat, where she is prohibited to use any attacks that cause direct damage, only sleep, charms, fear, dispels, buffs and similar spells.

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-Arueshalae: She's honestly not as bad as some people try to make her look. First she was a succubus on the path of redemption even in the original tabletop adventure, second, how do you think a succubus that wants to find redemption should behave?
Path of redemption doesn't mean being meek, submissive, naive, or idiot. I expect her to behave like a hundreds years old wise and responsible woman who knows and understands the consequence of her actions, not as a teenage schoolgirl who blush and freak out if someone touched her hand. Imagine if someone touched kind grandma by her hand...

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Now, consider how most of these characters change depending on your choices and how vast and deep the game must be to accommodate all of these different interactions. Personally I don't think that criticizing the characters because you find them "dislikable" on a subjective basis is fair criticism of the game.
I'm not saying that it is easy to make good believable characters, I'm saying that Owlcat mostly failed, probably they should have made less characters but give them more content and make fewer asshole companions. Another annoying thing is, by some reason, devs think that evil characters must like other evil characters. Evil characters work together only if someone powerful keeps them under the iron boot but characters despise each other even working together.

Last edited by Maerd; 05/12/21 10:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maerd
Of course it's very subjective when it comes what people like. You can be somewhat objective only if you'll make a proper statistical analysis of people preferences. If we go by coherence criteria then only 4 characters fit in the well-written category for me: Camellia, Daeran, Woljif, and Regill. Out of those only Regill is somewhat likeable.

And yet you realize Regil would be considered a bordrline psycopath in any modern society, right?. He's dutiful and analitical for sure but he's also willing to let people die if they hinder his plans or the efficency of his troops, so not exictly likeable by most people standards.

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If she's so pacifistic she shouldn't have been a companion, just an NPC. Alternatively, Owlcat should have made a special rules for her in combat, where she is prohibited to use any attacks that cause direct damage, only sleep, charms, fear, dispels, buffs and similar spells.

They could have done that but then mechanically no one would have played her unless her powers were absolutely out of scale. And of course she can go all "redeem you by fire and sword" in which case such powers wouldn't really have made sense. Btw I actually find Ember to be pretty tragical as a companion given what has happened to her. She's not really a child as she's as old or older than Woljif (who used to play with her until it wasn't cool to do so and he started throwing stones at her instead...), she's elven so she's long lived but she's also physically AND mentally traumatized. I think what the authors wanted to convey with her was that there's a fine line between sainthood and insanity.

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Path of redemption doesn't mean being meek, submissive, naive, or idiot. I expect her to behave like a hundreds years old wise and responsible woman who knows and understands the consequence of her actions, not as a teenage schoolgirl who blush and freak out if someone touched her hand. Imagine if someone touched kind grandma by her hand...

First, Aru is meek only if you try to redeem her. If you want to corrupt her she's not meek at all. As for your idea of her being portrayed as a wise and responsible woman... she's not a woman, she knows NOTHING about being a woman. She's demon who's trying to change her ways but doesn't exactly know how to. You see this right from the start with her: she manipulates you in going to the desnan church to hunt down the hag. She's doing this for good reasons but she acts the way she does because that's what she knows. And she freaks out if someone touches her because, being a succubus she's deathly scared she'll suck someone's soul out of their body (Desna did not remove her powers she can still do that). She only learns how to control her powers if you redeem her btw, so midgame she's not "putting herself in horny jail", she's hiding herself because she's got a well founded fear she can kill people even not wanting to.

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I'm not saying that it is easy to make good believable characters, I'm saying that Owlcat mostly failed, probably they should have made less characters but give them more content and make fewer asshole companions. Another annoying thing is, by some reason, devs think that evil characters must like other evil characters. Evil characters work together only if someone powerful keeps them under the iron boot but characters despise each other even working together.

I don't think there are many asshole companions. There are companions, with their history and personality and I find it better to have some remarkable ones rather than having a lot of bland ones. Seelah for example is not obnoxius but she's terribly bland, Sosiel is not much better. I'll take Aru or Daeran over them any day of the week (well, not really, in the case of Seelah I want her in my party because I need a 2nd melee warrior and I don't want to play with mercenaries).

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LOL reason Larian always win is they don't do zerg specs...Magus Rider/Drood/Witch is so OP I one shot the game, lets face it you start off with a horse and get mounted bonus and just slap everything silly, seen so many bad specs made up by tubers claiming zerg but that spec right there above is the real zerg, you'll want all animal buffs, healer witch for those "I suppose i better heal something" moments and double rapier from sword whatever spec as I can't remember but chose it at level 4 or there abouts then you will utterly frape the game on auto. So many tubers forget you can literally have feats every level by choosing another path it makes the game a joke I.E "Ooo I can have blood rage too as a caster, yep I'll take that". Larian win every time as they make it so you have to specialise rather than get too OP. I hope this ends this discussion and sense many people relogging on Pathfinder and realising how easy it is.

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Originally Posted by Tulkash01
And yet you realize Regil would be considered a bordrline psycopath in any modern society, right?. He's dutiful and analitical for sure but he's also willing to let people die if they hinder his plans or the efficency of his troops, so not exictly likeable by most people standards.
Well, you cannot be "borderline" psychopath. This condition is not determined by a society. It's a genetic/medical condition (not a judgement call), when a human being cannot feel sympathy and empathy on a physical level. This condition can be determined by MRI brain scan without even observation of person's behaviour, which is very well documented. It cannot be fixed and cannot be induced, people are born like that. Regill unselfishness pretty much guaranties that he's not a psychopath, despite his fanatical beliefs.

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They could have done that but then mechanically no one would have played her unless her powers were absolutely out of scale. And of course she can go all "redeem you by fire and sword" in which case such powers wouldn't really have made sense. Btw I actually find Ember to be pretty tragical as a companion given what has happened to her. She's not really a child as she's as old or older than Woljif (who used to play with her until it wasn't cool to do so and he started throwing stones at her instead...), she's elven so she's long lived but she's also physically AND mentally traumatized. I think what the authors wanted to convey with her was that there's a fine line between sainthood and insanity.
The game states that due to her being an elf she's a child even though she's a 100+ years old (it's roughly a quote from the game). Again, she would have been better shown as NPC with quests, similar to Anevia.

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First, Aru is meek only if you try to redeem her. If you want to corrupt her she's not meek at all. As for your idea of her being portrayed as a wise and responsible woman... she's not a woman, she knows NOTHING about being a woman. She's demon who's trying to change her ways but doesn't exactly know how to. You see this right from the start with her: she manipulates you in going to the desnan church to hunt down the hag. She's doing this for good reasons but she acts the way she does because that's what she knows. And she freaks out if someone touches her because, being a succubus she's deathly scared she'll suck someone's soul out of their body (Desna did not remove her powers she can still do that). She only learns how to control her powers if you redeem her btw, so midgame she's not "putting herself in horny jail", she's hiding herself because she's got a well founded fear she can kill people even not wanting to.
Corrupting Arushalae has nothing to do with the bad writing of her redemption. Regarding of her knowing nothing about being a woman, it is nonsense. Succubi specifically are temptresses, which means that they have to be exceptionally well versed in human psychology to be able to tempt anyone. She suppose to know more about humans than humans themselves. Thinking that she's afraid to accidentally kill you... it's similar argument as if you're wearing a loaded gun and when your girlfriend touches your hand you freak out because you're afraid to accidentally kill her. That's laughable. Arushalae in-game behaviour doesn't make sense at all, and you're looking for unbelievable excuses to justify that nonsense.

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OMG, I wanted to create a topic about this game, but there are already 70 pages here.

Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous is the best CRPG of all time, and the best RPG since Dragon Age Origin. Baldurs Gate 3 hasn't been fully released yet, so I'm not saying "since BG3". To be honest, when I first launched the game, I expected it to be much worse, and was pleasantly surprised that this is a really good game.

I liked the fact that the game is very variable, there are many options for role-playing. You can spend several hundred hours in it, this is not a game that you play in a few evenings and forget.

I do the first playthrough for the Demon (I wanted to see everyone's reaction to this and make friends with the demons, lol)
I also liked Lich, due to the fact that it significantly changes the gameplay, and gives unique undead companions, even the Queen.
The Trickster is also a very cool mythic (for my good walkthrough with a little trash).
Walking Swarm is too evil even for me, but I'll have to try it later to see "what will happen" to see what other content is left in the game

Quests are interesting and not boring. I liked the plot, a lot of unusual twists, starting from the second chapter.

Easter eggs, the secret path of the Devil, a secret ending where we become friends with the main mascot of the game and gain power, floating difficulty settings and high potential for replayability - all this is great.

And they solved the eternal problem of DND games, which it makes sense for the Larian to adopt - the battle can be either turn-based or in real time at the player's choice.

Bye. I went looking for the Pathfinder developer forum and started a Camellia fan club ...

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Although there ALL companions are cool, interesting and charismatic. A hundred times better than in the Inquisition, where only Solas was remembered, although this was only because of the ending of the game.


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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
You can spend several hundred hours in it, this is not a game that you play in a few evenings and forget.
That's so much true. I'm on the first run, 280 hours in and just in the middle of the chapter 4... Unfortunately, about 50 hours were lost due to bugs, but the game is insanely long indeed. Not sure if I'll be able to find time to replay it due to its length. And I'd like to, because the variability is great.

Last edited by Maerd; 07/12/21 09:00 PM. Reason: grammar
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Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
You can spend several hundred hours in it, this is not a game that you play in a few evenings and forget.
That's so much true. I'm on the first run 280 hours in and just in the middle of the chapter 4... Unfortunately, about 50 hours were lost due to bugs, but the game is insanely long indeed. Not sure if I'll be able to find time to replay it due to it's length. And I'd like to, because the variability is great.

It's just that on the second playthrough, you can put the difficulty "History" and it will be faster. But the automatic control of the crusade cannot be set, you can only lower the difficulty, otherwise you will not get the secret ending


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The "Story Mode" difficulty approach is a good idea - I've hit a wall with WoTR Gameplay-wise, but do still have a few more Mythic Paths to explore story-wise. I had made a save with all Mythic Paths unlocked, right after Drezen where you commit to one, and have been just starting my campaigns there to skip the intro, but even that is feeling too long. I just wished the game was more succinct, because the premise of these vastly different Mythic Paths is very interesting and I want to experience the differences.

Although experiencing just the story and not really delving into the mechanics might make the playthrough feel pretty incomplete. I find that with WoTR a lot more of my companion's identity is comprised of their mechanical exploits, as opposed to their actual story beats (because those are relatively few). For example, I don't really think of Camillia as the person the game tells you she is. To me, she's defined much more by her excellent performance as a highly reliable off-tank and versatile caster/buffer, an irreplaceable cog in the machine.

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Originally Posted by Topgoon
I find that with WoTR a lot more of my companion's identity is comprised of their mechanical exploits, as opposed to their actual story beats (because those are relatively few). For example, I don't really think of Camellia as the person the game tells you she is. To me, she's defined much more by her excellent performance as a highly reliable off-tank and versatile caster/buffer, an irreplaceable cog in the machine.
This is exactly how I feel about most companions (serviceable performers) because as people they are either not interesting or outright appalling. But the game itself is very interesting and engaging.

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I hope Larian's development and writing team takes the time to complete Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous. This is something that really liked the audience for which BG3 is intended. Dark fantasy, Dungeons and dragons - yes, this is it. Larian can draw on some experience and be inspired by the success of this game, and don't worry about the competition, most players will buy both games.

ESPECIALLY THIS APPLIES TO THOSE WHO WRITTEN AN EVIL WAY IN BG3. In Pathfinder, playing as an evil character is fun.


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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I hope Larian's development and writing team takes the time to complete Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous. This is something that really liked the audience for which BG3 is intended. Dark fantasy, Dungeons and dragons - yes, this is it. Larian can draw on some experience and be inspired by the success of this game, and don't worry about the competition, most players will buy both games.

ESPECIALLY THIS APPLIES TO THOSE WHO WRITTEN AN EVIL WAY IN BG3.

Oh, I'm not sure if it's the same audience.
Pathfinder is a slightly different type of game focusing more on mechanics and less on RP.
Even when you browse reddit, you can see the differences between these groups.
Another thing is that pathfinder is relatively niche compared to what BG3 is aiming for.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I hope Larian's development and writing team takes the time to complete Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous. This is something that really liked the audience for which BG3 is intended. Dark fantasy, Dungeons and dragons - yes, this is it. Larian can draw on some experience and be inspired by the success of this game, and don't worry about the competition, most players will buy both games.

ESPECIALLY THIS APPLIES TO THOSE WHO WRITTEN AN EVIL WAY IN BG3.

Oh, I'm not sure if it's the same audience.
Pathfinder is a slightly different type of game focusing more on mechanics and less on RP.
Even when you browse reddit, you can see the differences between these groups.
Another thing is that pathfinder is relatively niche compared to what BG3 is aiming for.

Both are successful. However, Pathfinder now has 2 successes. It is gaining ground. I think the point is that if Larian is not careful, if they don't appeal more to the D&D audience, they are going t lose them and a ton of valuable revenue in the future. D&D fans are numerous, and though DOS fans are too, Larian will lose a sizable chunk of their fans for the BG series if they don't listen to D&D fans also.

Trust me. There are plenty of us who want more BG games, but I'd they don't give us more D&D in BG3, we ain't buying any future BG games. I don't care for the DOS style gameplay. It's not Forgotten Realms. Say what you like, but it's not.

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WotR has :

1. Mounted Combat (just... awesome)
2. Good plot (I'm only in Chapter 1 tho), and good balance (no level 5 red dragons... so far)
3. NPC companions who are awesome crazy but NOT "Larian" crazy (again only chapter 1)
4. 6 Party!!! with possibility to add custom members (without multiplayer)
5. Turn based AND real time
6. You can select more than 1 party members at the same time
7. Holy Avenger from the beginning, with upgrades as the game progresses (just me, I'm paladin fetishist)
8. Day/Night system (during which you can cook, brew potion, write scrolls)
9. Extreme details in character toons (my personal favorite! long swords on the waist, not on the back, and they got SHEATHS, unused secondaray weaopns do NOT disappear by magic, if you put potions in the belt, it also shows, capes/cloaks, gloves and shoes are all rendered properly...)
10. Infinite ammo, BUT with limited magic arrows that can be toggled on/off

I really wish this game had some more AAA elements like Dragon Age or BG3 (full voice acting, detailed face graphism, etc...)... In that case It would have been CRPG of not the Year but of the Decade easily.

Larian has a lot of catch up to do. smile

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Originally Posted by Lumign
2. Good plot (I'm only in Chapter 1 tho), and good balance (no level 5 red dragons... so far)
The stats bloat on enemies gets ridiculous in later chapters imo. My impression is that the difficulty is "balanced" around a merged angel, who gets equally ridiculous offensive spells. I'd rather BG3 doesn't go in that direction.

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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Originally Posted by Lumign
2. Good plot (I'm only in Chapter 1 tho), and good balance (no level 5 red dragons... so far)
The stats bloat on enemies gets ridiculous in later chapters imo. My impression is that the difficulty is "balanced" around a merged angel, who gets equally ridiculous offensive spells. I'd rather BG3 doesn't go in that direction.

The stat bloat is the the problem that D&D 5E was designed to solve. I am not 100% confident in Larian, but I don't think stat bloat is the mistake that they are likely to make under the 5e system, even if they larianize many of the rules.

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Originally Posted by Lumign
WotR has :
1. Mounted Combat (just... awesome)
That would have been good if they made it reasonable. Mounts are completely immersion breaking...
They appear at the worst possible scenes (on/in the table in the tavern), apparently can go in caves, cellars, dungeons, human houses, etc.
You want to pass the rock climbing check? Yes, your horse is the best rock climber because of high athletics skill.
You want to safely descend down the well? You bet, your horse can do it better than anyone.
You want to dig a tunnel? No, not your dwarf companion, don't be silly, it's your horse again.
And I don't count bugs. So, I don't think this is a good feature unless reworked completely.

Originally Posted by Lumign
3. NPC companions who are awesome crazy but NOT "Larian" crazy (again only chapter 1)
Ha-ha, just keep playing, you'll find them way crazier than anything Larian made.

Originally Posted by Lumign
9. Extreme details in character toons (my personal favorite! long swords on the waist, not on the back, and they got SHEATHS, unused secondaray weaopns do NOT disappear by magic, if you put potions in the belt, it also shows, capes/cloaks, gloves and shoes are all rendered properly...)
To be fair, the details of those models are very low res. In BG3 all models are super high res for close ups.

Originally Posted by Lumign
I really wish this game had some more AAA elements like Dragon Age or BG3 (full voice acting, detailed face graphism, etc...)... In that case It would have been CRPG of not the Year but of the Decade easily.
Considering how long and diverse WotR is (200-350 hours for a single playthrough and 10 mythic paths variants), they'll need at least $100 mil budget for that and thousands extra developers, mostly 3D modellers and animators. I'm pretty sure this is possible only if sales were expected to be in dozens of millions.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Both are successful. However, Pathfinder now has 2 successes. It is gaining ground. I think the point is that if Larian is not careful, if they don't appeal more to the D&D audience, they are going t lose them and a ton of valuable revenue in the future. D&D fans are numerous, and though DOS fans are too, Larian will lose a sizable chunk of their fans for the BG series if they don't listen to D&D fans also.

Trust me. There are plenty of us who want more BG games, but I'd they don't give us more D&D in BG3, we ain't buying any future BG games. I don't care for the DOS style gameplay. It's not Forgotten Realms. Say what you like, but it's not.
That's very extreme views, which I don't think many share. I consider myself D&D audience since I played it since AD&D 2e times but I'm not purist, and for me the game is quite FR. I always have a tendency to modify rules if I feel that the original rules can be improved or fixed. For me in RPGs plot consistency always tops mechanical details if later don't break the game.

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Originally Posted by Maerd
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Both are successful. However, Pathfinder now has 2 successes. It is gaining ground. I think the point is that if Larian is not careful, if they don't appeal more to the D&D audience, they are going t lose them and a ton of valuable revenue in the future. D&D fans are numerous, and though DOS fans are too, Larian will lose a sizable chunk of their fans for the BG series if they don't listen to D&D fans also.

Trust me. There are plenty of us who want more BG games, but I'd they don't give us more D&D in BG3, we ain't buying any future BG games. I don't care for the DOS style gameplay. It's not Forgotten Realms. Say what you like, but it's not.
That's very extreme views, which I don't think many share. I consider myself D&D audience since I played it since AD&D 2e times but I'm not purist, and for me the game is quite FR. I always have a tendency to modify rules if I feel that the original rules can be improved or fixed. For me in RPGs plot consistency always tops mechanical details if later don't break the game.
Modifying rules only makes sense if it is to improve gameplay. Larian's hybrid DOS/D&D is still a mess and far inferior to a strict implementation.
Until a year ago this was still a theory, however Solasta has been released since. We can compare 5e implementation directly, and the single aspect of Solasta that was praised even on negative reviews was the gameplay, whereas it is still the most criticized aspect of BG3.
I agree with @GM4Him that this might drive D&D players away, and they are far more numerous than DOS players, that I believe would've bought the game anyway just by being TB.

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Originally Posted by Danielbda
I agree with @GM4Him that this might drive D&D players away, and they are far more numerous than DOS players, that I believe would've bought the game anyway just by being TB.
And yet WotR has been getting steadily lower in player chart numbers, might be below DoS2 now, even though it's only few months after the release. Solasta remains a niche game. D&D players might be numerous, but how many of them are gamers who buy computer gamers is what matters.

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all rpgs are niche. Hell, the biggest mmorpgs are niche compared to the big boys. rpgs get thousands if they're lucky, mmos millions, but games like fortnite/Candycrush (yes, you heard me)/among us have HUNDREDS of millions.

I just want BG3 AND wotr to both be good games that I enjoy playing. We can't hope to draw in millions of unnamed D&D players, it's just not going to happen.

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