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I should say at first I really like the changes Larian did to how dice rolls work. The only reason I am still save scumming are rather frequent crashes (Stadia) but definetely not anymore because of dice rolls. However the new mechanic shows new balance issues that were not visible that clearly before. In this case mainly the spells "Friends" and "Charm Person":

"Friends" is a Cantrip, can be casted as much as you want and gives you Advantage on every Charisma Check which is huge. To balance that somewhat there is a downside in DnD5e rules:

"For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you. When the spell ends, the creature realizes that you used magic to influence its mood and becomes hostile toward you. A creature prone to violence might attack you. Another creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM’s discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction with it."

But the Larian interpretation of the "Friends" spell has practically no downside apart from the fact that you could choose another Cantrip instead of it. But honestly why would you if "Friends" is that damn strong? Like the spell description says it should be possible to let people prone to violence turn hostile (a bandit for example) and give you Disadvantage on all future Charisma Checks on that creature.

The next one is "Charm Person" which is a 1st level spell and again the Larian interpretation has no downside apart from the fact you could choose another spell instead of it. The fact that on some occasions you could even use it when the check has nothing to do with a person but is triggered by a dialog is obviously a bug (I think I encountered that on the dialogue with the tortured Liam).

But the real problem is the following: The rules say:

"You attempt to charm a humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you."

So it basically says the target must always make a Wisdom Check. But the Larian ingame spell interpretation is always successful. And like "Friends" after the end of the duration the charmed creature knows so I expect at least disadvantage during future checks with the creature.


As it is now "Friends" and "Charm Person" make every dialog Check where they can be used a piece of cake. DC 10 is almost always a win and even DC 20 is doable if you have proficiency, "Guidance", high attributes and/or Inspiration. And you should not forget these are early level spells. You won't use these spell slots much at later levels meaning you are going to use level 1 slots almost entirely for dialogues if it stays that broken.

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Yeah I saw that on the first run, that you could charm the merchant with no downside. Afterwards it was like for any elf or half elf, why would you choose any other cantrip when that one is clearly more useful.

Part of me really dislikes the idea of charmed to hostile without being attacked first. Or like if the PCs bounce, I always kind of pictured it like as long as you walk out the room and the character is going to remain charmed for a while, maybe they don't fully realize what happened (depending on their wisdom or int) and so perhaps the Party gets away with it. But you'd think next time they came back to sell something, that character would probably have a much more guarded reaction. I think most merchants should have protections against being charmed, and be sort of magically paranoid about it. That way if the PC is about to try and cast a spell that might totally hose their ability to buy cool stuff later, maybe they get checked with a warning.

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Considering that Larian are still using the disposition slider for merchants, they could set Friends up so that when you use it, you get the disposition benefit, and thus price discounts etc., but when it wears off, they take a negative hit by the same amount - so next time you speak to them, they'll like you less than they did before the charm, becuase they're annoyed at you for using magic on them.

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I really ask myself if people can talk about "safe scumming" unironically - or always use the term with some kind of forced cringe in their heart?
Most people are probably not streamers, nobody cares about how they come through the game, but still this pretty offensive sounding term is used disturbingly often.

Outing myself now:
I "safe scum" as much as I want.
I give a fart about how I solve the problems.
And when I want to succeed a dice-roll, I will re-load as often as I have to.

Why? Because
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

Really - this term man.
As if anyone has to accept anything in a game in which the dice feels rigged often enough.

Last edited by KeinSklave; 14/08/21 02:12 AM.

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I'd say after friends wears off, their opinion towards you should drop. Like if you get caught stealing or something, then whoever is around usually gets like -5 relations to you or whatever, so after friends wears off they should get -10 or -15 relationship towards you. Pretty sure that would also cause merchants to make their wares more expensive and give you less gold when you sell to them as well.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Considering that Larian are still using the disposition slider for merchants, they could set Friends up so that when you use it, you get the disposition benefit, and thus price discounts etc., but when it wears off, they take a negative hit by the same amount - so next time you speak to them, they'll like you less than they did before the charm, becuase they're annoyed at you for using magic on them.
This might be stupid question ...
But what stops you using the same spell again? O_o


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Niara
Considering that Larian are still using the disposition slider for merchants, they could set Friends up so that when you use it, you get the disposition benefit, and thus price discounts etc., but when it wears off, they take a negative hit by the same amount - so next time you speak to them, they'll like you less than they did before the charm, becuase they're annoyed at you for using magic on them.
This might be stupid question ...
But what stops you using the same spell again? O_o

It dropping further and further until they are hostile. A later level Enchantment Wizard ability would likely make it that there is no Disposition drawback due to the person being enchanted forgetting that they were in the first place.

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This wierd "Drama" everytime about how we succeed the dice-rolls.
Larian doesn't have it easy with the playerbase sometimes.
Really man, who cares how we win?

As if someone with a goldmedal awaits us if we do it the "right" way. As if.


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Originally Posted by KeinSklave
This wierd "Drama" everytime about how we succeed the dice-rolls.
Larian doesn't have it easy with the playerbase sometimes.
Really man, who cares how we win?

As if someone with a goldmedal awaits us if we do it the "right" way. As if.

This Thread was not about save scumming nor about how player intend to play this game. Personally I am rather one of those guys waiting for an Ironman mode but with the current stability and the frequent crashes it's not possible yet but that's an entirely different issue.

What this Thread is about is balancing. "Friends" and "Charm Person" feel overpowered during dialogs for me. And a look on the DnD5e rules proofed me right that Larian intentionally or not (I don't know) decided to drop the drawbacks. This Thread is about discussing whether it is a common feeling among other players as well and whether it might be a good idea to nerv these spells in some way. That doesn't necessarily mean to do the exact thing mentioned in the spell description in the DnD5e rules, after all this is video game.

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I think Friends dropping disposition afterwards makes sense. Players could probably bribe it back up later.

The wisdom saving throws should indeed be looked at, but I think that might be more of an EA issue where they haven't taken the time to assign stats and saves for most NPC's. It should be done before the final release, though.

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+1 I agree that they're overpowered without the drawback and saves.

Given that every(?) NPC already has a disposition toward every party member, lowering it after the spell ends is the perfect and easy way for Larian to address half of the problem.

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On the same line - any spell that effects the character that you are talking too should not be allowed to cast a spell on you that effects them. For example, I was in a chat mode with Shadowheart and had to persuade her to my opinion. The game allowed her to cast guidance on me to convince her that I was right lol.

Last edited by avahZ Darkwood; 14/08/21 06:11 PM.

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