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veteran
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2021
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OK. I gotta say, the lack of alignment and the default facial expressions is ruining my evil playthrough. The game really needs Alignment tags built in and then allows for gestures, facial expressions, etc. that match with your chosen alignment.
My lawful evil drow mage with black tattoos and shadowy eyes with demon black eyeballs with white irises looks ominous and tough when standing still. Then, as Shadowheart is talking to him, he smiles all sweetly and nicely, looking like he really enjoys her company and such.
No no. That is NOT his sadistic, evil character that I created for him. He is a murderous, wicked, evil fiend who only has one type of smile; sinister and sadistic. This he only does when he's delighting in murdering someone.
And when Arabella dies, because I just stood by and watched, he should not look shocked and horrified. He should be smiling that same sinister-like grin and he should enjoy watching her life slowly vanish before his eyes.
I don't know if this is in the works for the finished product, but not having expressions and gestures that match your character's Alignment is really messing with my evil playthrough. I'm having a real hard time with it. It just feels very unnatural and wrong. One minute, I'm killing someone senselessly. The next minute I'm smiling like a warm and friendly guy who really likes everyone - or I look like I'm scared of my own shadow, or something similar.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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Honestly the game should just not show our characters in most cutscenes, especially since characters aren't fully voiced. At best we have long extended awkward shots of our character standing there silently with a neutral expression. And at worst our character makes some expression/motion (e.g., falling down in the intro when the red dragon appears) that doesn't mesh with the idea we have in our head for our character.
Showing companions' facial expressions and body language works because they have set personalities. Showing Geralt in the Witcher games works because, even though you can play him in a variety of ways, he has a base-level of personality and most choices are relatively in character for him. Showing custom-made PCs does not work because of the sheer variety of personality types players will come up with.
I agree that having alignment/personality-based facial expressions would be an improvement over what BG3 currently has. But the work required to make the system less immersion-breaking than simply showing less of the MC is too much imo. What if I want to play an initially-evil-then-turned-good MC? Will my character's facial expressions/personality change along with my choices?
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veteran
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Joined: Aug 2014
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Good catch. Alignment is not the same as personality though. There could be an evil character who would be all laughs and smiles and then stab you in the back.
You would need alignment restricted personality tags for correct reactions. Such as sadistic or deceptive for evil characters who either enjoy other people's suffering or fake "good" reactions. Empathic or stern for good alignment who could either feel your pain or harden up in a call for justice. Stoic, sarcastic or indifferent for neutrals. Etc. etc. I think they could actually be narrowed down to a few but meaningful choices.
Would be a great system. Doesn't Solasta do something like this? At least they have tags, not sure how they affect the gameplay.
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2021
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Yeah. Solasta has personality tags, but I didn't want to bring that game up again. Every time someone does, there is a litany of groans and people complaining about bringing that game up.
But yes, your characters in Solasta have different dialogue responses and choices based on your chosen personality tags. Each personality tag is based on Alignment. So, you may have Kindness under Good Alignment and Authority under Lawful. So if your character is Lawful Good, they can have both the Authority and Kindness personality traits.
That's a rough summary of it, but the point is that it can be done. Your character could be programmed with personality/alignment options.
As for a character being one thing at the start of the game and changing to something different later, THAT is classic Baldur's Gate video gaming. The originals had such a system in place. Depending on different dialogue options you chose during gameplay, your character's alignment would slip in different directions in terms of alignment.
So, if my Chaotic Good character randomly murdered some NPC in Baldur's Gate 2, his alignment would shift towards Evil. Since it was a random killing, he would solidify his Chaotic portion of his alignment. If the murder was in order to uphold Law and Order, then his alignment would slip more towards Lawful.
And, of course, they'd slide from Good to Neutral to Evil or Lawful to Neutral to Chaotic, and vice versa.
That's the kind of thing I'm talking about here. It's a hugely missing element that I sorely miss from the originals, and it would make the game feel more Baldur's Gate.
And I agree, if they don't implement this, then they need to just stop having the MC in all the scenes. I don't mind it as much if I'm playing a good character - though some of those clumsy scenes where my MC is fumbling around like an idiot are a bit cringy - but it REALLY is imersion-breaking when playing an evil character. The voice acting choices, the facial expressions and everything really do not speak evil, meniacal, power-hungry wizard drow. They speak warm and friendly human cleric who loves everyone. For evil characters, either get some more voice choices aligned with Alignment, Personality Tags and facial expressions, or just cut the MC out and don't give him/her voices at all.
That said, I REALLY like voice acted MCs. I LIKE to see my character. Why even bother with character appearance and customization if I never SEE my MC? That was one of my issues with Skyrim. I went through all this work to create his race, appearance, etc., and I never freaking saw him in the game.
And one of the things I love most about RPGs is Character Creation. I love making them and customizing them. So I want to SEE them and hear them. It really is a whole lot more fun for me. However, it is not fun when what I create doesn't line up at all with what I'm seeing and hearing. So...
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2021
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Yup, I'm 100% with you. I like playing as an evil character, but the facial animation and the comments the character makes (when you go into stealth etc) really don't match.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2021
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That said, I REALLY like voice acted MCs. I agree with most of what you've said (well, written, but same thing), but this part I emphatically disagree with. Voice acted protagonists leads to every single line having to be acted out by a voice artist, which usually collides with budget considerations and leads to there being just two voices to pick from, one male, one female, and both of them are done by budget voice actors who really needed the money and who don't care one bit about context. And this in turn makes it so much harder to properly identify with the protagonist. It works well enough in games where you're playing a fixed person who has a fixed background and a fixed voice, but in these "create your own character" games it just tends to be bad. Bethesda couldn't execute it properly in FO4 and CDPR messed it up in CP77, and in both cases they had a triple-A budget to play with but it still wasn't enough.
FO4 male voice completely lacked the gruffness that I would have expected from a decorated soldier dumped into a desperate survival situation where training and survival basics is everything. Instead every dialogue is polished sociology major verbiage, with barely any aggression to be found anywhere. No rah-rah machismo nonsense to simplify the complexities of life, no reverting to total war "friend or foe" mentality, not even any cold utilitarian rationality. There's literally not a single dialogue choice that feels in character, and not a single one of them is delivered with subdued rage to mask the fear of having lost one's infant child and the sorrow of the dead spouse. There's a little bit of overt sorrow early on, then nothing.
FO4 female is slightly better, she's supposed to have been a lawyer and military wife, so the lines fit her a little better, but the lines don't really fit a half-decent and half-sharp lawyer either. There's a distinct lack of the aggressively difficult phrasing that lawyers seem to have an undue fondness of, additionally also an absense of absolutely essential run-on sentences to form the properly complex language for which the practioners of legalese are rightly, in such parts of the worlds where proper legal traditions are practiced and maintained, quite infamous. There's also none of the smugness or superiority complex that I reckon would be an essential requirement of making it through any law school. And show me a lawyer that won't happily go into blabber-mode when given half a chance to do so.
CP77 male V sounds like such an uneducated punk most of the time. Not a very emotional delivery but not a proper "harsh life" one either. What backgrounds does that really fit with? And remember that this is a brutal world where killing other people is very common and very one's survival is often happening at the literal expense of other people. Is it too much to ask for just a little bit of occasional anger? Some righteous fury at times? And I really miss that typical male aggression. And I miss having some chances of going for rah-rah machismo to build up confidence and keep the problem scope simple. But all the dialogue for both genders is exactly the same, so all voice lines are some unisex bullshit that feels a little wrong regardless of gender.
CP77 female V is a much more reputed voice artist and she does put more emotion into it, but even then she has some problems here and there, and the unisex dialogue probably fits her better. The lack of truly feminine options feels more forgivable in a super-harsh world where "masculine" aggression and war-face has a bigger role than "female" understanding and empathy. Or maybe that's my own latent male bias shining through. Either way, I found her playable but not really enjoyable. And I felt like I still had to sort of build my understanding of my V around her voice delivery. I couldn't be a hardass and I couldn't be hyper-intellectual. I couldn't really be streetsmart either, but that's mostly because CDPR's story falls apart completely unless V is dumber than a fire hydrant and naive enough to actually help out a Nigerian prince in exile.
So I would really, really prefer that Larian doesn't make a pig's breakfast out of voicing the MC and instead spends money on giving us more voice options than two per gender, which I find to be on the low end. I want a proper grumpy dwarf voice, I want a proper light halfling voice, I want proper melodic elves and I want deep-chested hoarse half-orcs. And I cannot imagine that we're getting that if Larian has every MC dialogue option voiced.
Last edited by ArvGuy; 02/09/21 11:34 PM.
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veteran
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Joined: Jun 2020
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Other (older) games bridge this gap partially well by having a broad variety of voice sets to choose from, and so it's baked into your chosen voice pack whether they might shout "I'll stop you if I have to!" or "Blood makes the grass grow!" when you're about to violence someone.
I can't say how well that approach would stand up in a modern high-detail game, of course, but I do feel that rather than having our MC voice every possible line, we'd be better severed, in terms of game immersion, by having an extensive selection of 'sets' to choose from so that our character sounds consistent to the way we want them to sound, in general, for most of the gameplay experience, even if their specific lines in dialogue scenes are selected silently, and we are presumed to say them in the manner that we imagine.
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2021
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Well, I can't argue with that. When I said I really like voice acted MCs, that is only true when the voice matches. When I can't find a good voice match it does tick me off. So they should give you the option to not have a MC voice.
My evil character would be better off without a voice at all than any of the voices provided, so I must agree with you there.
I also have the same issue with Solasta. A party of even 3 females has 2 females sharing a voice OR 1 has to sound like a guy. That is not fun, and it is very limiting.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Certainly agree. I think they should just not really show the main character's reactions. At least not nearly as often, and it would be nice if we could choose how our character's general personalities are.
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veteran
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Joined: Oct 2020
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I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2021
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I do not think "alignment" is precise enough. I think the real problem is actually the temperament of the character. Like being stoic, cruel and etc. It's not 100% precise but it still gives some idea about character reactions to certain events.
P.S. Although to be honest, I am not sure if it's worth it to spend too much resources on it.
Last edited by Scales & Fangs; 03/09/21 03:14 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: May 2021
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I am curious whether Origin chars will have unique facial expressions given their strong and distinct personalities. If so, and if those same choices do not apply to our custom char based on some set of defining qualities we specify from the outset, then that is yet another indication that custom chars are severely lacking compared to Origin chars.
I mean…they (origin chars) have to have distinct facial reactions, no? Can u imagine Lazael smiling like an idiot?
Last edited by timebean; 03/09/21 05:18 PM.
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2021
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You know, the more I think about it, the more I agree. The MC should be like in games like KOTOR. You see them up close, but they neither speak nor have expressions, etc.
So, dragon comes in to breath flames on transponder, you are seen from behind, dragon breathes flames, you are blown down. No close up of the MC with terrified look on their face.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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Totally agree. Show our characters less if you wont less us pick what kinda facial expressions. Even trying to play a cold mercenary type is totally immersion breaking whenever the camera shows your character being the most emotionally sensitive person alive. Give us voices with expressions that match the general tone or just stop showing our faces so much.
Other games that don't zoom in for conversations let you use your imagination to fill in the blanks, harder to do that when its right in your face.
Last edited by Matey; 06/09/21 02:15 AM.
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Joined: Oct 2020
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I agree that the most expedient solution is probably just not showing us our own face so much, unless the game can actually deliver there.
BG had 2 simple conventions for a character emoting or being expressive in the ways described, both pretty monolithic, either it was coming from the voice barks or the portrait.
Now that we can see the full face, they need to hire some theater actors to nail all the classic expression stage tropes that the PC can then select from for their defaults. You know, villainous eyebrows, the scowls and smirks, but also the haughty or the deadpan, just a good spread of standard facial expressions including one for being drunk or terrified or crazed. That would add some flair at least. Barks I think are more important though. Even the conventions they used before where the voice description would read like a personality type rather than just voice 1 or voice 2. Better barks
Last edited by Black_Elk; 06/09/21 05:46 AM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
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Yes. My Gith Wizard is way too smiley. Even though his race specific dialogue options often fit a more evil or at least conceited character than his facial expressions would suggest.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Mar 2020
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Yeah a general personality palette to choose from in character creation would be nice.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Personality would be awesome ... But honestly, i would work quite fine with looking at NPC while choosing my dialogue options instead of Tav. :-/ I know its lazy solution, but its also effective. 
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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addict
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addict
Joined: Aug 2014
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Yeah a general personality palette to choose from in character creation would be nice. That would probably be the best solution: Have standard expressions for a few standard situations, like agree, disagree, smile, frown, intimidate, charm. Like voice, they could be selectable at character creation. Much less complex programming during the game, and we still could look at Tav´s face once in a while.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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For CRPGs I much prefer the way Pillars of Eternity did it with your dialogue and plot choices informing your reputations with different groups and unlocking other dialogue options later.
So, like if you get to Brutal 1, then later dialogues might give you more Brutal options, which adds to your rep and unlocks yet more Brutal options so that it becomes a rather realistic slippery slope. (Though my character went headlong into Benevolent on that)
On tabletop, Alignment is too vague and indistinct, covering way too much space to be useful RP guides. Chaotic is personal determination and Evil is selfishness, both of which are wildly broad distinctions. Chaotic Evil covers everything from the pickpocket or con artist who balks at torture or murder but doesn't care if something they steal indirectly ruins one or more person's life. All the way to the raving bloody minded killer slaughtering everything in their path.
Likewise, Lawful Good ranges from the mildly helpful person who puts others first when asked, but doesn't really go out of their way to do anything, all the way to the proactive champion and protector of the people.
I much prefer the Personality traits from the PHB with the backgrounds: Traits x2, Ideal, Bond, and Flaw... maybe with a quirk or two from classes or background. It's a much more detailed and defined set of pillars around which to plan your character's actions and behaviors. Especially with a live GM and players.
For a computer, you can put a lot into the background and use a much more detailed simulated system (reference again Pillars of Eternity) since I recognize a CRPG lacks the flexibility and capability of a GM to manage the wide range of possibilities and contextual shifts that would come from the Personality/Background system. Granted they are doing something with backgrounds, but it's by necessity a very generalized and pre-planned interpretation of those backgrounds.
Last edited by Thrythlind; 08/09/21 03:04 PM.
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