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Well, I don't want to do a back and forth exchange with you, but I would ask you whether you are sure about all you just said or are you making assumptions?

I am trying to reconcile all of it because I've been trying to put it all into one cohesive fan fic story. I have replaid dialogues over and over again and read those documents you can find at length. I even went on a killing spree and a robbing spree to acquire them all to get all the little details from those things.

So, I could be missing things, but I don't ever see where Sazza or anyone says that Sazza was captured during a previous raid. There is only one raid that the goblins keep talking about. They say that Sazza was one of the ones who went out with the raiding party after "The Looters."

Here's an excerpt: Sazza says to Minthara, "Mistress! It's me, yer loyal servant, Sazza. I'm back, an' Ibrought a friend."

Minthara says, "A Drow?" (I played a drow character at the time.) "Tell me, Sazza, did your misadventures take you to the Underdark?"

"They woz in some rickety druid grove!" (So, she clearly isn't familiar with the druid grove as if it was common knowledge amongst the goblins that they were even looking for it.) "Mostly full of tieflin's, but them intruders you're after were hidin' out there!" (Who are the intruders she was after?)

Minthara says, "I presume you dealt with my prey, and massacred the rest? Why else would you hve returned? You know the price for failure."

Sazza says, "Ah... well. The thing about that is... they sorta massacred us, but Ibrought the ones wot did it!" (Ah! So, the ones wot did the killing was Tav and her party. Was that Minthara's prey? Clearly not, because since Sazza was going to the grove to deal with Minthara's prey, she would have known who that prey was. Right? And her prey obviously wasn't the tieflings because she mentions the tieflings as if they were just some part of the grove and not her intended victims. So if the prey wasn't the tieflings, or the grove, or Tav and her party, who was her prey?)

Furthermore, Sazza says, "They was in the grove, hangin' around with the tieflings."

Minthara replies, "Undercover, no doubt. Carrying out the Absolute's will." Then she asks you to join her in killing everyone in the grove. So, clearly, you aren't the ones she was looking for. The tieflings and druids weren't the ones she was looking for.

So, who are the Looters? Who "were "them intruders" Minthara was after? Well, wouldn't the only people who make sense as the Looters be the ones the goblins were chasing back to the grove, who tried to break into the temple in order to find the way down into the Underdark? They are literally the only people the dialogues mention as trying to break into the goblin camp. I've found no other dialogues or books or anything that mention something like that.

Oh, and here's another excerpt from the dialogues in the game from before the encounter with Minthara. Sentinel Olak says, "Well, look who's getting dragged back. And by such high comany! How badly did you mess up?"

Sazza says, "Can it! I know something Ragzlin will want to hear."

Olak replies, "Yeah? What's that?"

Sazza says, "I been in some druid's grove. This one sprang me. Now, move over, so I can tell Ragzlin myself."

Olak says, "Hold on. Where are the raiders?"

"Dead," says Sazza. "Every last one."

"Ragzlin's other drow friend won't be happy to hear that," says Olak.

"She'll be happy enough when I tell her where them looters is holin' up," says Sazza.

So what am I missing? I can't see it.

Time: 3:55 ... i dont even see her say "i brought the one who did it" ... O_o


Therefore ... everything after this is false? O_o

This is everything but clear ...
For one, since we know that Minthara is about to kill you after the raid, she might just decided to use you before ... just remember, she also find out that to quote her words "habitants of this Grove thrusts you". (Quite Drow move if you ask me)
For two, i highly doubt that she know "exactly" who is she looking for ... more like "anyone who survived".
And finaly, the sentence "tieflings and druids weren't the ones she was looking for" is based on nothing, pure speculation. -_- On the contrary, if we talk about her "pray" tieflings or druids have to be the ones she was looking for, since there is noone else before our arival.

Here we have two possibly false asumptions ...

First nobody ever said that those "intruders" intruded the selute temple itself ... it might be just Blighted Willage, if Goblins are moving in (and we know they are) they might allready count it as their own teritory (and we know they do) ...
Then it might easily be Tieflings just aswell as Aradin and his group, since there ARE Tiefling corpses in the willage.
Also, as i mentioned i highly doubt that was Aradin and his group since Sazza was not part of their chasing group, and she was allready in the cage when that attack happened ... so she could never know about that they were looting or intruding anything.

Two, GM4Him is looking for some mention that can be rephrased as: "Dear diary, today we tryed to loot the selute temple ... we got our asses kicked and run out." ... we all should know that is not how hits work.

I'm still also wondering what happened with Halsin and Aridan and the adventurers for the entire month since they left the Grove before the game begins. That is probably one of the biggest story issues I'm dealing with. Even if we assume the Grove is like a week's journey from the Temple of Selune, as if every foot of the game map is like a mile, it would take a week to get to the temple and a week to get back. How long does it take to discover that the place has way more goblins than they initially thought there was, to get spotted, and then start running for your life?

And let's say Aridan and his group were only able to make it to blighted village before they were attacked by goblins. That makes it even worse. Blighted village is closer. According to the documents found in the Grove, they left a month prior to the games start. So what were they doing for that whole month before Halsin was captured and they were chased back to the gate?

Ah. Just for the record, I know there was some question as to whether Aradin and his crew were attacked at Blighted Villaged or the temple of selune.

So here's what I found:

Go into your log and pull up the Nightsong quest. It reads:

A wizard in Baldur's Gate is offering a huge sum of money to anyone who brings him the Nightsong.

The Nightsong is in some kind of temple. It must be in the goblin camp.

One of the adventurers, the dwarf Brian, has a map leader to the Nightsong. However, he was killed by goblins AT THE TEMPLE.

So where did Aradin and his team get attacked by goblins? The Temple of Selune. Then they ran back to the grove. Halsin was captured at some point during their flight back.

Link, or point out where can we find those documents would be much appreciated.

Depends on situation ...
We know that goblins were out raiding the Waukeen's rest ... if Aradin and his group get there by that time, they might find whole temple quite empty ... so they started to look around ... and then goblins came back.
I would understand Aradin suprise in such case.

To get spotet is also matter of discusion ... we dont know if they were moving all together, or if they split up.
Its absolutely possible that when one of his party was discovered the others simply abandoned him ... the clasic "its too late for him" situation from movies.

Possibly ...
There is few unanswered questions tho ... when questlog say "at the temple" does it mean inside the temple, or that courtyard where they are partying? O_o
Do the fact that one member of this party was killed "at the temple" mean that everyone was there, or was he just scouting ahead?
(Just to clarify, i dont think that Dwarf would be scouting a daywalk ahead so everyone would be at blighted willage, while he was at the temple ... more like in front of the bridge and behind it ... since my main problem with Aradin running out of the temple itself is the fact that while there is more ways inside the temple, there is only one way out ... and that is exactly that bridge where we get the absolute monologue cutscene ... so while whole goblin army was either returning from raid, or starting party ... Aradin would need to run straight through all of them O_o )
Also was indeed Halsin captured during flight back?

Anaway, this isnt exactly surprising ... in the very same post i said that they might not even reach the temple, i admited that there is "dead adventurer" (the one goblin kids are kicking) inside the temple ... so that theory was at least vague from the start.

Ok. Tried to give this more thought.

To be clear, this is NOT what I'm suggesting:

"Hi. Welcome to the Emerald Grove. Man! No one in years and then suddenly tieflings show up on the tenth of Elient. Then our first druid, Halsin, took off on us with that adventurer on the second of Marpenoth. Now it's the 20th of Uktar, and they just got back without Halsin. Sigh."

What I am suggesting:

A few additional comments during a few different main NPC dialogues just to clear things up. So, maybe while talking to Zevlor, when he mentions the gnoll attack on the road he says something like, "about two months ago" just to give players a basic idea that the tieflings have been in the Grove for about 2 months. It wasn't yesterday, a year ago, six months. Just a quick additional comment added to let us know roughly when.

Then, everyone's dialogues need to be consistent. So if Zevlor says two months, Pandirna shouldn't make it seem like she was attacked by gnolls yesterday and that's why her nerves are shot.

And if Pandirna was referring to the goblin attack as to why her nerves were shot, then I should have seen her on the wall helping to fight the goblins off. If she was referring to a separate goblin attack that had occurred earlier, then a simple addition to her dialogue to clarify that is all it would take.

So, something like, "my nerves were shot after the raid that occurred a few days ago when we captured that female goblin."

Boom. Simple dialogue addition clears up what attack she's referring to that has her all frazzled and when they captured Sazza, both at the same time.

I shouldn't have to find a plethora of tomes and scrolls in order to determine some sort of very basic time frame for when things occurred and what is the objective of various different individuals. Simple additions to dialogue are all that's needed to let players know what happened when and who is after what.

Oh here's another example of what I'm looking for: don't you think that one of the first things your main character would do is to ask someone friendly where exactly they are? This is something other players of the game have brought up as a suggestion as well. It is not clear unless you search a bunch of stuff and pick up a bunch of items exactly where you are in the world. Sure, if you talk to a few people you learn that you are maybe 10 days from Baldur's Gate. Sure, when you talk to others, you can learn that you are along the risen road and near a certain River.

The point is, that you have to go around asking various people to learn this information. What I'm saying is when you are talking to someone important like Zevlor, it would make sense to provide the player with the option of asking him where the heck you are. Then he could tell you plainly you are about 10 days east of Baldur's Gate just south of Risen Road.

I would think that that would be a very basic question that someone would ask so that they can get their bearings on where they are and where they might want to go.

In the big one for me goes back to when Halsin left. The simple addition of "it's been over a month since they left" would let me know that it wasn't just like a week ago. With everything in the game seeming so close together, I always assumed that they hadn't been gone over a month. I just think it's too easy to assume what happened when in the story and who was after what and it's just too confusing. Simple additions to main NPC dialogue here or there would clear this up greatly.

OK. So I also got confirmation that the intruders that the goblins and Sazza and Minthara are talking about were Aradin and his group. I spoke with more goblins in the camp and confirmed it. They mention how Aradin and his crew broke in to the goblin camp and Brian got caught and is roasting on a spit. One of them is on the torture rack. So they definitely were the intruders.

I understand that Ragzlin and Minthara and pretty much everybody is after the weapon. Ragzlin even interrogates the mind flayer to gain that knowledge. There is a great reward for the thing, and that is their ultimate prize. I'm just still finding it unclear as to why they think it's in the grove, why they want to destroy the grove, why they care about it at all, why it would be a great victory for the Absolute, and why, if the grove was so important to Minthara to destroy it, and she was looking for it before, and if the goblins attacked it so many times as was suggested in this thread, why does Sazza act like she's never heard of it... and other goblins too. "They was in some rickety grove," she says. If Minthara had sent troops to find and attack the grove in the past, shouldn't Sazza say things like, "They was in that rickety grove you've been looking for." Shouldn't the goblins be like, "You found the grove, Sazza? You know where it is? Finally! Minthara's going to be real pleased."

But maybe Minthara wasn't looking for the grove originally. Maybe she was just sending the goblins to the crash site and the goblins found the grove and attacked it while looking for the weapon. Then maybe Sazza was captured and the rest of the goblins killed. But wait! If Sazza believed that "The Looters" were the ones who stole the weapon, why would she believe they were in the grove? Who in the grove did she think stole the weapon? Sazza says, "Ah... well. The thing about that is... they sorta massacred us," meaning that Minthara's prey massacred her and her raiding party. And who would have killed her raiding party? Druids? No. More likely the tieflings at the gate, assuming that Sazza was apart of a different raiding party than the ones that chased Aradin and his team. But notice what Sazza said. "They woz in some rickety druid grove! Mostly full of tieflin's, but them intruders you're after were hidin' out there!"

So Sazza is pointing out that it is "them intruders" that Minthara is after that are her prey, not some looters from the ship. After all, why would anyone call the looters from the ship "intruders"? They weren't intruding upon the goblin camp. Only Aradin and his crew were intruding upon the goblin camp. So then it only makes sense that Minthara's prey is Aradin and his group.

But why the heck would she care so much about them? Did THEY steal something truly important like the weapon?

Either way, it's just not making total sense to me. I'm still left wondering, "What the heck is Minthara's true target and objective? Is she after the weapon only? Is she after the weapon and Aradin and his crew? Is he out to destroy the grove, or is the grove just a side quest? Did she really send out multiple raiding parties and none of them came back? Why did Zevlor freak out that Aradin had led the goblins to the grove when none of them escaped alive? If that raiding party that you fight IS the only raiding party, why does Zevlor say there were multiple attacks on the grove? Why do all the tieflings freak out so much about the goblin raid as if it was massive and there were goblins streaming in from all sides? Why does everyone seem to think you are the hero of the grove, as if it wasn't for you the grove would be doomed? I mean, even Kagha thanks you for saving the grove. It's like a hundred goblins were at the gate and you slaughtered them all."

I just keep going back to all this because I REALLY want Larian to be more clear both in the EA and in Acts 2 and 3 when it comes to things like this.

Act 1 isn’t complete which also plays a role in elements feeling unclear.

One thing I agree on is that it’s really easy to aggro the goblins in the temple and miss out on a lot of information. Like I killed Spike before speaking to Minthara and effectively gated myself out of any interactions with her. It feels like we’re missing an important cutscene/convo with that group. Doesn’t help that Minthara is tucked away in a corner and easy to miss.

We know the goblins have been going out on raiding parties because they ransacked Waukeen’s Rest. If you speak with Nettie you can get access to the drow Halsin killed, who states he was part of a scouting party. I wouldn’t be surprised if they wanted to destroy the grove to keep knowledge of the tadpoles from getting out. Most of the Absolute’s followers seem unaware of the tadpoles existence, but Minthara might be one of of the few in the know? Even if she doesn’t, the Absolute likely wants to stop the druids from learning more. We see Halsin made notes studying the phenomena in the back with the dead drow.

Datamined spoiler:

Right. That's why I'm saying the main NPCs should have certain clarifying language. Having the finer details strewn out amongst minions you may never chat with leads people to believe things that aren't true and it's confusing.

I don't find it confusing as long as the dialogue is working properly. And I think part of the fun is meant to be piecing it all together like a mystery. But better journal entries might be a helpful middle ground.

Although I'm not sure how likely this would be, another option could be to have a cutscene trigger as soon as you walk into the goblin camp. Minthara comes out, congratulates the returning party, mentions avenging the fallen scouting party, and suggests whoever does so brings glory to the Absolute. This also serves as giving people doing an evil playthrough an actual reason to side with the goblins in the grove fight.

Others have made a big deal out of what I'm suggesting. It's really not much.

A. All journals and such provide a record consistent with dialogues and one another.

B. Main NPCs have a few extra dialogue options/comments to clear up major events.

Example: Journal says Halsin left a month prior to the game starting, so Zevlor says, "Halsin and the adventurers went off to that temple about a month ago, and now Kagha has taken his place."

Then at some point somewhere explain what they were doing for a whole dang month

Time in general seems very undefined. I wouldn't be bothered by it, but so many quests feel dependent on time. The tadpole main quest, the grove being sealed, etc.

Honestly, time IS defined. That's what bothers me. If you read all the books and docs, you can put together a timeline. This I did. That's how I know the gnolls attacked the tiefs 2 months before the game starts and Halsin left the Grove a month prior.

The problem is that when you just play the game, you don't get that vibe at all. Since the goblin camp is like ,maybe 10 minutes jog from the grove, it's easy to assume that Aradin and crew left with Halsin at best maybe a day or so ago. So it's also easy to assume the tiefs arrived maybe a week ago. But then, you find yourself wondering why Kagha is taking over so quickly and how long the tiefs have really been there, but can you ask anyone these simple, clarifying questions. No. You have to collect tons of docs to get very basic answers like where you are and what has happened when.

Ah. I found a good example of what I'm looking for in order to just clear up timeline stuff to let players know what happened when.

While talking to Kagha, Rath says, "Thank you, Kagha! Master Halsin would..."

Kagha replies, "Halsin isn't here. Keep his name off your tongue, lest Teela pierce it."

So, why not add the following: "lest Teela pierce it. He's abandoned us, Rath, and for what? He didn't even give us an explanation. He's been gone for over a month, and those adventurers have returned without him. He's dead. It's just us now. We must be strong and move on. Stop clinging to the false hope that he'll return. I will have no more talk of Halsin. As far as I'm concerned, he's a traitor to us all." Then she spins on her heel and storms off.

Boom. Simple addition to the dialogue now tells us several things rather quickly and seemlessly. 1. Halsin's been gone for over a month. 2. Kagha feels betrayed by him, like he abandoned them. 3. She is totally clueless as to why he left.

Oh man! Here's another one that is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say in this post:

You enter the chamber with Nettie. There's a dead drow. Now, looking at said dead drow, how long ago would you say that Nettie and Halsin were attacked by said drow "in the woods together with some goblins?"

At first, second and third glance, I'd say maybe a day or two ago at most. The body is pretty well preserved. It's not rotting or decaying too badly. No one complains of the smell.

According to documents you find, Halsin and Nettie encountered the drow over a month before the game begins, like a month and a half before. So that corpse would be REALLY bad off. The smell would be incredible. When you go to the toll house, that corpse in the basement was only there for maybe a week at most, and the characters comment about how terrible it is.

So why did I conclude that Halsin had only been gone for like a day or two? Because there were little things all around indicating that he'd not been really gone that long, like a dead drow that is perfectly preserved on a stone table so that it looks like Halsin and Nettie had been examining his corpse very recently; as if they captured him like yesterday.

So why not add a little blurb during Nettie's dialogue to clear up this little misconception. "This one had the same problem as you. Attacked us in the woods together with some goblins about a month and a half ago. Tadpole crawled out of his head soon after we killed him. We've used some magic and alchemicals to preserve his body for further study. That's why the smell isn't absolute rot and decay."

Boom. Problem solved, and now players have some idea of when the event with the drow happened and why that body hasn't totally rotted out.

I mean, when entering the grove you encounter Halsin party who run back from the ambushed that got Halsin captured. Presumably Helsin was captured around the time the crash. Unless is there is a month long journey implied between the crash and the Druid grove.

No. Halsin left the grove on Marpenoth 2. The toll house journal says it was wiped out on Uktar 16. That is a month and 14 days since Halsin left. That means Halsin and company left the grove and went to the temple, and they were there for at least one month and 14 days before they were discovered by goblins, Halsin was captured, the nautiloid crashed and Aradin and his pals returned to the grove.

What the flip made them take 1 month and 14 days? I am reconciling it in my fan fic by having Aradin tell the MCs that they went to the temple, got discovered, and they were chased into the mountains west of the camp. They spent a month and a half being chased all over the Western mountains avoiding drow and goblins.

Then, they were found, a massive number of gobbos were sent out to find them. Halsin was beaten down and taken, though he let them so he could get closer to the cult, and Brian caught. Then Aradin and the rest were pursued for over a day and a half back into the area and to the grove... Or something like that. I haven't worked it all out yet.