Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 12 of 13 1 2 10 11 12 13
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by robertthebard
The nice thing about player agency is that you, as the player, can choose to ignore all of it. I hope that they add toggles for some aspects, such as resting, etc, for MP sessions, but in a SP player environment, none of this breaks my immersion at all, because if I think it's a "broken mechanic", I can opt out of using it, and what Joe Casual is doing in their game has absolutely no bearing on what I'm doing.

Don't like dipping? Don't dip.

Don't like Pickpocketing? Don't do it.

Don't like barrelmancy? Don't use it.

Don't like the way resting is handled, handle it how you prefer.

What do all of these items have in common? They are examples of player agency. Isn't it a great thing? I mean, seriously, what's next? "Players shouldn't be allowed to side with the Goblins"?
I cant properly express amount of love i have for this kind of mindset ...
I wish there is more people understanding this. :3

//Edit:
I was Quoted three times and so i came! xD
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Ragnarok get out of this body !

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 11/10/21 03:57 PM.

Vive et vivant. wink
Joined: Oct 2020
D
addict
Offline
addict
D
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by robertthebard
The nice thing about player agency is that you, as the player, can choose to ignore all of it. I hope that they add toggles for some aspects, such as resting, etc, for MP sessions, but in a SP player environment, none of this breaks my immersion at all, because if I think it's a "broken mechanic", I can opt out of using it, and what Joe Casual is doing in their game has absolutely no bearing on what I'm doing.

Don't like dipping? Don't dip.

Don't like Pickpocketing? Don't do it.

Don't like barrelmancy? Don't use it.

Don't like the way resting is handled, handle it how you prefer.

What do all of these items have in common? They are examples of player agency. Isn't it a great thing? I mean, seriously, what's next? "Players shouldn't be allowed to side with the Goblins"?
I cant properly express amount of love i have for this kind of mindset ...
I wish there is more people understanding this. :3

//Edit:
I was Quoted three times and so i came! xD
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Ragnarok get out of this body !
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Agree on the mindset. But also appreciate that people bring up the feedback that they dont like it, or what parts they dont like. Without that kind of feedback barrelmancy wouldnt have been brought back alot, cantrips wouldnt be nerfed, etc. And I do consider those example to be changes for the better.

Dont understand what Maximuuus meant either smirk

Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Originally Posted by robertthebard

Thanks for this, I needed some entertaining reading this morning.

The nice thing about player agency is that you, as the player, can choose to ignore all of it. I hope that they add toggles for some aspects, such as resting, etc, for MP sessions, but in a SP player environment, none of this breaks my immersion at all, because if I think it's a "broken mechanic", I can opt out of using it, and what Joe Casual is doing in their game has absolutely no bearing on what I'm doing.

Don't like dipping? Don't dip.

Don't like Pickpocketing? Don't do it.

Don't like barrelmancy? Don't use it.

Don't like the way resting is handled, handle it how you prefer.

What do all of these items have in common? They are examples of player agency. Isn't it a great thing? I mean, seriously, what's next? "Players shouldn't be allowed to side with the Goblins"?

Another interesting thought, when's the last time a non-magical melee focused build hit mobs with Eldritch Blast? "But dipping is imbalanced", until level 5? That's when Wizards, and soon Sorcs will have access to Fire Ball. It's more than a bit ironic that you point to one of the more powerful classes to compare how imbalanced dipping is, isn't it? It's even more ironic when I sit here remembering how SSG totally spit on 7 years of character development in DDO because melee were crying about how OP ranged builds are compared to melee builds. That melee character can dip all they want, it won't really matter, once ranged characters come into their truly powerful spells/abilities, and melee builds are struggling to even hit something before it dies, right?

One may like pickpocketing in games and hate how pickpoketing works in this game.

Is "ignore a mechanic OR use a broken one" what you call players agency ?
Isn't pickpocketing "player agency" in other games because it's more coherent and/or less easy ?

Who would complain if pickpocketing, highground bonuses, shove, stealth, dipping (and so on) were more coherent and less broken ? I can't be sure but I guess it would be just like when they finally decouple jump and disengage, remove healing food and remove backstab advantage...
Yet many players claimed that everything was perfect and that nothing should be changed... The concept or the idea behind many mechanics is often great but how it works in game is often bad. To the point that "if you don't like it, don't use it" could be a meme of the game.


Originally Posted by robertthebard
That's great, and who knows what's coming in the next two chapters? Maybe we get all of this, maybe we get none of it. It's hard to say what's going to happen from the beginning of Chapt 2 to the end of the game. Personally, and I know I'm not alone in this, I prefer my main character to be a blank slate. That allows me a lot of freedom, within the confines of the game, to do what I want with my backstory, instead of being locked into someone else's idea of what my character is, or should be, before the events that trigger the actual game. I have to admit to a bit of surprise every time I see this argument presented though, because everywhere else I play where "RPG" is part of what the game is, MMO or otherwise, "I don't want to play the developer's character" is a very common position. There was a ton of controversy in AC Odyssey about this very thing, stemming from one of the DLCs, and a situation that comes up near the end. So it confuses me to no end when I read the equivalent of "I need Larian to tell me who my character was before the events of the game". There is a solution for those specifically looking for that, play one of the Origin characters. There's nothing snarky intended there either, it's a good option to have, and adds to replay-ability, as one could choose each Origin character for a specific playthrough, as well as rolling their own. The only reason for an Origin character to be "more deep" is because the player didn't put any thought into the character other than gender and class. Especially now, with the backgrounds mattering, to some extent. At the end of the day, even if there was a "generic" storyline for Tav, it would be exactly the same as it is for every Origin character; one story to rule them all.

You didn't understood me well... or maybe I didn't explain my thoughts well but you wrote something very interresting : "before the events that trigger the actual game".

I never asked for a background before the event starts and I truly hate playing Origin character precisely because it's someone else's characters.
What I asked is different problems and/or different introductions in the story and/or different goals and/or variations in the main story for the MC and for the companions.

While every companions have something special after the events that triggers the actual games... Tav just has nothing for more than 25 hours.
Like everyone else he was taken by mindlfayer into the nautiloid and he has a tadpole is in his head. Like everyone else a strange force save him after the crash. Like everyone else he wants to find a healer and like everyone else, he's making dreams and have special powers.
What a main character ! Once again from a story perspective Origin companions will make better main characters than custom one because the main character even does not have any specific story line.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 11/10/21 07:42 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Agree on the mindset. But also appreciate that people bring up the feedback that they dont like it, or what parts they dont like. Without that kind of feedback barrelmancy wouldnt have been brought back alot, cantrips wouldnt be nerfed, etc. And I do consider those example to be changes for the better.
Oh yes, feedback is good ...
Keep demanding absolute destruction and deleting any evidence of its previous existence, after something was alterned to better suit both sides ... its not. laugh

Actualy i was hoping i get the chance to use this video (i have found today, even tho its a little older) in some debate soon, but i didnt even imagine it would be so fast. laugh
So:
The important part starts on 1:33 and ends on 2:39 ...
[video:youtube]
[/video]

... and coming out of Swens mouth, im glad to hear they understands. :3

Originally Posted by Demoulius
Dont understand what Maximuuus meant either smirk
I believe i do. wink
Dont bother with that, its not important. laugh
Maybe im icorect tho ... but as far as i know, Maximuuus is one of few people around here, who dont like mine quoting style of writing ... and since there is someone new using it, he probably remembered me and acused him from being me under sercet new nick (most likely ... or hopefully ... as a joke, or at least i took it as a joke smile and it made me smile )
But maybe im wrong. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 11/10/21 08:01 PM.

Vive et vivant. wink
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Not QUOTING again, but you aren't wrong wink

Last edited by Maximuuus; 11/10/21 08:36 PM.
Joined: Apr 2020
Location: Boston , MA
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Apr 2020
Location: Boston , MA
Can't believe people are arguing that cows can climb ladders. How low can we get?

Last edited by IrenicusBG3; 11/10/21 11:08 PM.
Joined: May 2021
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: May 2021
Cows are persistent. One day, it may happen. Until then...

[Linked Image from beefcentral.com]

Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
I'm just waiting for the day when they laugh about how "they've polished up the cow climbing animations so they look goofy and silly, and isn't it hilarious and funny, and great that they don't clip or stutter any more, look at this awesome stuff we're doing! Haha! So funny!"

While halflings are still using broken animations for climbing that see their models getting stretched and distorted into ridiculous motions and poses as they attempt to anchor their animations to points designed for medium sized creatures...

Joined: Aug 2021
A
member
Offline
member
A
Joined: Aug 2021
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Funny you should mention not hauling crates and barrels..... I know siege of dragonspear wasent OG bg1 but it actually has a quest involving sacks of grain xD not exactly the same as a barrel, but in essence the same. A container that holds other products. They weighed like 20lbs each some of my characters were carrying a dozen or so (yay high STR). At the end of the day, does that matter? In bg1 ive had instances where I was carrying multiple carcasses of Ankhegs around to sell to armour smiths. Sometimes find bodies that you need to pick up and deliver somewhere, etc. If you find the story of a literal son (or daughter) of a dead god lugging around the corpses of fantasy ant-lions is less weird then carrying barrels with varying amounts of things in them then uh....we have very different things of what we think is weird, I suppose.
One of these days, I'll get around to playing those EE versions. That said, carrying 20 lb bags of stuff isn't that weird but of course 2E strength girdles letting a character run around with hundreds of pounds of stuff is. Carrying a bunch of dead insect carcasses might feel weird but I vaguely recall the description to be shells, meaning the squishy bits were presumably removed.

But like I said, the bulk factor was a bit comical in BG1 and 2, but at least there were limits. And the inventory wasn't a magic warpgate that allowed instant transport of matter across large distances. Can you imagine how neat it would have been if you could leave your pickpocket in town and just bring the other 5 out in the field. Then just dump off the stuff at the pickpocket's end of the party and have infinite loot capacity. And if you run really low, the pickpocket can buy a health potion and teleport it out in the field.

Originally Posted by Demoulius
Quote
Climbing a ladder specifically. Not just climbing. Obviously there's a difference between climging regular terrain and climbing up something that is very hard to use without fingers. You would also not expect bears and goats and whatnot to climb up ropes or vines.
Considering there are no seperate rules for climbing a ladder. No. There is no difference. The only rules that excist that might be valid to mention that there are rules for surfaces where you have little to no grip. And even then, you could still climb it. You just need to pass a (IIRC) Athetlics check to do so.

That aside. Have you seen bears actually climbing trees? Seriously a tree has nothing to hold onto aside from bark and maybe very tiny branches but they practicly fly through those things. What makes you think a bear would see a ladder and go 'welp I dont have opposable thumbs. Guess il stay down here!' and be unable to go up there?

Same story for a snake. They can climb up the side of trees and they dont even have limbs.

Ladders do not have seperate rules adressing them how you can climb them to my knowledge and if they do id love it for you to point me in that direction. But as it stands you just keep moving the goalpost because animals climbing things is weird to you...
A ladder is built to be climbable by humans, not so much animals that don't have the right feet to make the steps or the right joints and flexibility to move a foot or a paw out of one step and onto the next. The D&D rules don't specifically mention ladders but then there's a DM around to make sure things do not get out of hand. There are also no rules specifically saying that a druid in bear form with some monk levels cannot go full kung fu panda, as far as I know, but if you try that then the DM will probably have some fun with you regardless.

Yes, bears can climb trees, to the extent that their claws can find purchase. Why wouldn't they be able to? But how does that help them climb ladders that lack the curvature and bark of trees and the width for their limbs to really fit? How would them climbing big round trees with good bark help them climb up vines on which their claws have no grip whatsoever?

As far as snakes are concerned, I suspect they shouldn't have too much trouble with a ladder, depending on species. But how about cows and goats and horses and giraffes? How about various kinds of dinosaurs? And have you ever seen dogs climb ladders? They are not good at that and untrained dogs probably fall off enough times to grow bored before figuring it out.

Originally Posted by Demoulius
-Not a huge fan of the design choice either. But can see why its beeing done. Honestly adding a 'travel to swamp' or 'travel to ruined village' area prompt wouldnt mechanicly add anything. Other then that you could more easily say that its not all literally next to each other. That said, what would it add? Immersion I suppose and considering immersion is a big part of playing an rpg id be all for it. But maybe its alot of work or they dont want to do it. Who can say?
If the swamp had it's own map, it would be a map of purely swamp with plenty of room for just adding swampy atmosphere that doesn't conflict with anything else. And maybe a different nuance of the lighting to indicate either time passing or just a different weather. It would also be a perfect point to bring back the iconic "You must gather your party before venturing forth." message. The same applies to the other major areas of the overland map, IMO.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by Niara
While halflings are still using broken animations for climbing that see their models getting stretched and distorted into ridiculous motions and poses as they attempt to anchor their animations to points designed for medium sized creatures...
Shouldnt they be more like jumping?
Im not sure how to put this exactly ... it would make sense to me if they were attracted mainly by hands on side of that ladder and actually just hopped to the next rung. (Translated by google)

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 12/10/21 07:36 AM.

Vive et vivant. wink
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
K
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
K
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Niara
While halflings are still using broken animations for climbing that see their models getting stretched and distorted into ridiculous motions and poses as they attempt to anchor their animations to points designed for medium sized creatures...
Shouldnt they be more like jumping?
Im not sure how to put this exactly ... it would make sense to me if they were attracted mainly by hands on side of that ladder and actually just hopped to the next rung. (Translated by google)
Aren't halflings more or less the size of human kids? I think Niara is more referring to, that halflings should get a seperate animation set that makes sense for their anatomy rather than rigging their 3d model to the animations of the elves/humans/dwarves 3d skeleton. I too hope they fix the animations to suit more the halflings laugh. I mean... I guess having the halflings climb a bit more believable would increase immersion wink. As for cows climbing ladders, yeah.... maybe they could disable that hahaha.

Joined: Oct 2020
R
old hand
Offline
old hand
R
Joined: Oct 2020
I personally prefer the current map design to the pathfinder map design where about 90% of the maps were claustrophobically small. We are in 2021, the bg1 size maps are a relic.

As for climbing ladders, this is just a change that was needed if there were a lot of ladders in the game. Due to the fact that the number of druid transformations is very limited, the need to get out of the form every time you need to climb somewhere would be irritating. This could probably be remedied by increasing the amount of possible transformations available for rest, but this again would cause dissatisfaction.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 12/10/21 08:47 AM.
Joined: Aug 2021
A
member
Offline
member
A
Joined: Aug 2021
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Niara
While halflings are still using broken animations for climbing that see their models getting stretched and distorted into ridiculous motions and poses as they attempt to anchor their animations to points designed for medium sized creatures...
Shouldnt they be more like jumping?
Im not sure how to put this exactly ... it would make sense to me if they were attracted mainly by hands on side of that ladder and actually just hopped to the next rung. (Translated by google)
Don't be silly. A normal ladder for a hafling is like if you're climbing by taking every other step. Maybe not super comfortable but you surely don't need to literraly hop from rung to rung. They're small but they're not 1 foot garden gnomes small.

Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
I personally prefer the current map design to the pathfinder map design where about 90% of the maps were claustrophobically small. We are in 2021, the bg1 size maps are a relic.

As for climbing ladders, this is just a change that was needed if there were a lot of ladders in the game. Due to the fact that the number of druid transformations is very limited, the need to get out of the form every time you need to climb somewhere would be irritating. This could probably be remedied by increasing the amount of possible transformations available for rest, but this again would cause dissatisfaction.

I also agree that most pathfinder maps are way too small.
But there's something in the middle between very small maps like in BG1/2 and an incoherent "half open world" one.

About wildshape, unlimited transformations outside combats could also have been a solution.
You still need to get out of the form but would it be a problem if you don't loose your wildshape slots ? I mean... it's just one click and you're not climbing ladders every 10 minutes. It could also have been automatic so the only click required is if you really want to transform again on top of the ladder.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 12/10/21 09:50 AM.
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
K
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
K
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
Ladder animations aside, what interests me more about the coming patch most is: what is changed in mechanics, gameplay. I mean, new class is always welcome, but seeing the game evolve towards the final product is also important. I hope Larian manages to do this game justice really. For me this game is firmly in the pile of: Covid made development too vague pile. I noticed good a many dev being way too lax on their communication strategy the past two years. I mean I can see most of them care about their product, but they seem to kinda lose sight of the fact that people kinda crave consistency in what for many has been a very inconsistent time.

As I recall from DoS 2 EA they communicated (or seemed to?) a lot better in that EA cycle. I mean I am sure this game will be finished but a roadmap could really help alleviate some of the fears/worries you guys point out. Because right now we don't really know in what order they are tackling things. Panels from hell are good for presenting patchers I suppose, but it doesn't really outline the whole development process that is going on outside of this Act 1 bubble we are actually able to see.

I mean... Give us some idea of:
a) how many companions are planned including the good and/or neutral orientated companions?
b) What troubles have they run into which they did not anticipate when they started out in 2020 with the current EA cycle
c) How have they managed to keep development throughout this whole work from home cycle etc
d) ROADMAP PLEASE! I mean yeah hoping for a release in 2022 is a bit vague xP.

Roadmaps aren't sacred but at least it gives us an idea on what the process may look like. Even though in some cases I think devs stuck too ardently to their roadmap. Just taking Solasta as a example, I think although the devs released quite a good foundation gameplay wise, it definitely shows they were too focused on keeping to their 6 month release window. The story suffered for that, in my opinion.

Larian really needs to work on their communication strategy if they want to get people to buy into their next, post Baldur's gate EA venture.

Last edited by Kimuriel; 12/10/21 10:04 AM.
Joined: Oct 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by robertthebard

Thanks for this, I needed some entertaining reading this morning.

The nice thing about player agency is that you, as the player, can choose to ignore all of it. I hope that they add toggles for some aspects, such as resting, etc, for MP sessions, but in a SP player environment, none of this breaks my immersion at all, because if I think it's a "broken mechanic", I can opt out of using it, and what Joe Casual is doing in their game has absolutely no bearing on what I'm doing.

Don't like dipping? Don't dip.

Don't like Pickpocketing? Don't do it.

Don't like barrelmancy? Don't use it.

Don't like the way resting is handled, handle it how you prefer.

What do all of these items have in common? They are examples of player agency. Isn't it a great thing? I mean, seriously, what's next? "Players shouldn't be allowed to side with the Goblins"?

Another interesting thought, when's the last time a non-magical melee focused build hit mobs with Eldritch Blast? "But dipping is imbalanced", until level 5? That's when Wizards, and soon Sorcs will have access to Fire Ball. It's more than a bit ironic that you point to one of the more powerful classes to compare how imbalanced dipping is, isn't it? It's even more ironic when I sit here remembering how SSG totally spit on 7 years of character development in DDO because melee were crying about how OP ranged builds are compared to melee builds. That melee character can dip all they want, it won't really matter, once ranged characters come into their truly powerful spells/abilities, and melee builds are struggling to even hit something before it dies, right?

One may like pickpocketing in games and hate how pickpoketing works in this game.

Is "ignore a mechanic OR use a broken one" what you call players agency ?
Isn't pickpocketing "player agency" in other games because it's more coherent and/or less easy ?

Who would complain if pickpocketing, highground bonuses, shove, stealth, dipping (and so on) were more coherent and less broken ? I can't be sure but I guess it would be just like when they finally decouple jump and disengage, remove healing food and remove backstab advantage...
Yet many players claimed that everything was perfect and that nothing should be changed... The concept or the idea behind many mechanics is often great but how it works in game is often bad. To the point that "if you don't like it, don't use it" could be a meme of the game.


Originally Posted by robertthebard
That's great, and who knows what's coming in the next two chapters? Maybe we get all of this, maybe we get none of it. It's hard to say what's going to happen from the beginning of Chapt 2 to the end of the game. Personally, and I know I'm not alone in this, I prefer my main character to be a blank slate. That allows me a lot of freedom, within the confines of the game, to do what I want with my backstory, instead of being locked into someone else's idea of what my character is, or should be, before the events that trigger the actual game. I have to admit to a bit of surprise every time I see this argument presented though, because everywhere else I play where "RPG" is part of what the game is, MMO or otherwise, "I don't want to play the developer's character" is a very common position. There was a ton of controversy in AC Odyssey about this very thing, stemming from one of the DLCs, and a situation that comes up near the end. So it confuses me to no end when I read the equivalent of "I need Larian to tell me who my character was before the events of the game". There is a solution for those specifically looking for that, play one of the Origin characters. There's nothing snarky intended there either, it's a good option to have, and adds to replay-ability, as one could choose each Origin character for a specific playthrough, as well as rolling their own. The only reason for an Origin character to be "more deep" is because the player didn't put any thought into the character other than gender and class. Especially now, with the backgrounds mattering, to some extent. At the end of the day, even if there was a "generic" storyline for Tav, it would be exactly the same as it is for every Origin character; one story to rule them all.

You didn't understood me well... or maybe I didn't explain my thoughts well but you wrote something very interresting : "before the events that trigger the actual game".

I never asked for a background before the event starts and I truly hate playing Origin character precisely because it's someone else's characters.
What I asked is different problems and/or different introductions in the story and/or different goals and/or variations in the main story for the MC and for the companions.

While every companions have something special after the events that triggers the actual games... Tav just has nothing for more than 25 hours.
Like everyone else he was taken by mindlfayer into the nautiloid and he has a tadpole is in his head. Like everyone else a strange force save him after the crash. Like everyone else he wants to find a healer and like everyone else, he's making dreams and have special powers.
What a main character ! Once again from a story perspective Origin companions will make better main characters than custom one because the main character even does not have any specific story line.

The problem with "different introductions" is Act 1. You can't skip part of the narrative because you want a special start for a character that could be the PC. Party members sure, but they'd have to skip all of Act 1 to start the Player in Baldur's Gate, and who knows, maybe they'd have to skip more than that, if we're not going straight to the city for Act 2. Also, as I said previously, even if Tav had a story, it would be the same one for every Tav, just as all of the Origin characters are. That's what I meant by "generic" story. I tend to look at the main story as Tav's story, with Origin characters getting it if there is no Tav, which is a distinct possibility. A lot of people love the Witcher series after all, and may find playing one of those predefined characters enticing.

Using a mechanic, broken or otherwise, and ignoring a mechanic are exactly what player agency is. Let's look at resting: It's been an issue since release, despite the fact that one can simply not rest after every battle. It's what I did, I took long rests, when I remembered them at all, at story beats, instead of spending a lot of time on the forums worrying about what Joe Casual might be doing in their game. As far as implementation is concerned, is it broken, or is it "but someone else might be able to do something"? That's not facetious either, I haven't tried to do any pickpocketing, so I have no idea. I've seen a lot of "barrelmancy" videos on YouTube, but if you could see my actual gameplay footage, you wouldn't find any of it. I wasn't aware that it was a problem until I came to the forums. Why? That pesky player agency, it never occurred to me that I should be packing around 100s of barrels to make major fights easy, and so, I never did it.

You see, you read my comments and go "but that's broken" instead of the context of what was actually meant, and explained: Player agency isn't a bad thing. If, as is to be surmised from reading someone complain about it, a mechanic is an issue, then players have a choice to use it, or not, or to use it where it makes sense. For example, a powerful mage is standing next to an exploding barrel, or is forced to move by one during their turn, and so, you blow them up, or use a dipped arrow on a spider web, to drop the spider to the ground. So what's the real issue? "But someone can do something easier than what I did it" is a usual suspect, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that statement mixed in amongst all the complaints. "But the economy", in a SP game, really? Yes, there's a MP aspect, and as I stated previously, there need to be toggles for some stuff that apply to MP. But in the SP environment, it just doesn't matter at all, unless you read the forums. Why is that?

I played AC 4, Black Flag, and thought, since I was way late to the party, I could catch up on their richest pirate leader board, until I saw some YouTube videos about how players were getting there using Cheat Engine. I could have followed suit, but I chose to just continue playing normally, and put the thought of getting into a high position, on PC, out of my head. Someone that sees Pickpocketing as a problem is going to have a stroke when they see what some players will do with Cheat Engine. I mean, there's a tutorial video on YouTube that teaches players how to max out all of their stats in Pillars of Eternity, do you believe players won't be trying that for their SP characters, or worse, for their MP characters. Neverwinter Nights had an "Enforce Legal Characters" toggle for servers, and something like that may be required here as well, for MP. What they may do in SP doesn't bother me in the least.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Don't be silly. A normal ladder for a hafling is like if you're climbing by taking every other step. Maybe not super comfortable but you surely don't need to literraly hop from rung to rung. They're small but they're not 1 foot garden gnomes small.
I cant imagine that honestly, since personaly i have inexplicable horror from heights, ladders and scaffolding. laugh
So i would NEVER EVER EVER. laugh

But i get it was probably silly idea. smile


Vive et vivant. wink
Joined: Aug 2021
A
member
Offline
member
A
Joined: Aug 2021
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by ArvGuy
Don't be silly. A normal ladder for a hafling is like if you're climbing by taking every other step. Maybe not super comfortable but you surely don't need to literraly hop from rung to rung. They're small but they're not 1 foot garden gnomes small.
I cant imagine that honestly, since personaly i have inexplicable horror from heights, ladders and scaffolding. laugh
So i would NEVER EVER EVER. laugh

But i get it was probably silly idea. smile
I'm sorry to hear that. Personally, I don't have any problems with heights at all. Doesn't bother me one bit. But compulsive thoughts about the risk of falling down are exponentially increasing with my distance to the surface of the planet.

Yeah, I really hate that part of a flight where you're some few hundred meters above the ground. Makes it feel so real. Being above those soft clouds with beautiful sunlight above, on the other hand, is no big deal. smile

Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Originally Posted by robertthebard


The problem with "different introductions" is Act 1. You can't skip part of the narrative because you want a special start for a character that could be the PC. Party members sure, but they'd have to skip all of Act 1 to start the Player in Baldur's Gate, and who knows, maybe they'd have to skip more than that, if we're not going straight to the city for Act 2. Also, as I said previously, even if Tav had a story, it would be the same one for every Tav, just as all of the Origin characters are. That's what I meant by "generic" story. I tend to look at the main story as Tav's story, with Origin characters getting it if there is no Tav, which is a distinct possibility. A lot of people love the Witcher series after all, and may find playing one of those predefined characters enticing.

Using a mechanic, broken or otherwise, and ignoring a mechanic are exactly what player agency is. Let's look at resting: It's been an issue since release, despite the fact that one can simply not rest after every battle. It's what I did, I took long rests, when I remembered them at all, at story beats, instead of spending a lot of time on the forums worrying about what Joe Casual might be doing in their game. As far as implementation is concerned, is it broken, or is it "but someone else might be able to do something"? That's not facetious either, I haven't tried to do any pickpocketing, so I have no idea. I've seen a lot of "barrelmancy" videos on YouTube, but if you could see my actual gameplay footage, you wouldn't find any of it. I wasn't aware that it was a problem until I came to the forums. Why? That pesky player agency, it never occurred to me that I should be packing around 100s of barrels to make major fights easy, and so, I never did it.

You see, you read my comments and go "but that's broken" instead of the context of what was actually meant, and explained: Player agency isn't a bad thing. If, as is to be surmised from reading someone complain about it, a mechanic is an issue, then players have a choice to use it, or not, or to use it where it makes sense. For example, a powerful mage is standing next to an exploding barrel, or is forced to move by one during their turn, and so, you blow them up, or use a dipped arrow on a spider web, to drop the spider to the ground. So what's the real issue? "But someone can do something easier than what I did it" is a usual suspect, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that statement mixed in amongst all the complaints. "But the economy", in a SP game, really? Yes, there's a MP aspect, and as I stated previously, there need to be toggles for some stuff that apply to MP. But in the SP environment, it just doesn't matter at all, unless you read the forums. Why is that?

I played AC 4, Black Flag, and thought, since I was way late to the party, I could catch up on their richest pirate leader board, until I saw some YouTube videos about how players were getting there using Cheat Engine. I could have followed suit, but I chose to just continue playing normally, and put the thought of getting into a high position, on PC, out of my head. Someone that sees Pickpocketing as a problem is going to have a stroke when they see what some players will do with Cheat Engine. I mean, there's a tutorial video on YouTube that teaches players how to max out all of their stats in Pillars of Eternity, do you believe players won't be trying that for their SP characters, or worse, for their MP characters. Neverwinter Nights had an "Enforce Legal Characters" toggle for servers, and something like that may be required here as well, for MP. What they may do in SP doesn't bother me in the least.

Don't you have the feeling we're turning in circles here ?

The purpose of the message you quoted 2 pages ago was there exactly to say that they did the exact same thing in BG3 than in DoS : Act 1 (and maybe 2) that HAS to be the same for every companions and the main character is a problem "by Larian's design".
That's only a consequence of an Origin / Custom character system that has not be improved at all.

Thanks for the definition of players agency. As you confirmed, it does not mean that things have to be broken to allow players more "agency".
Does it mean that players that don't like doing broken things and/or that don't like "glitching the game" (to quote Swen in the video Ragnarok posted) have LESS players agency in BG3 ? Yes, and that's exactly my point.

Wierd things that makes the game even more a joke or less players agency including basic RPG mechanics like stealing or stealth and cool fresh ideas like a coherent dipping or throwing (things or ennemies) mechanic.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 12/10/21 03:09 PM.
Joined: Sep 2017
Location: Norway
S
addict
Offline
addict
S
Joined: Sep 2017
Location: Norway
Originally Posted by IrenicusBG3
Can't believe people are arguing that cows can climb ladders. How low can we get?

Pot, kettle black. People who fail to comprehend that resources are finite and just about everything is a question of priorities, has no business shaming others as "low". Larian prioritized "climbing cows", a needlessly unimmersive and resource heavy quality of life implementation for a single class over for instance more complex combat animations. Dipping, barrelmancy, super cantrips with surfaces, throwing enemies across the screen, are the things that get prioritized over for instance a day & night cycle, or more subclasses, more feats, etc. By a company that is lowering expectations by implying they can't implement a great deal of things for fear of falling into a "development sinkhole".

Last edited by Seraphael; 12/10/21 02:06 PM.
Page 12 of 13 1 2 10 11 12 13

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5