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Any news yet on what makes this patch bigger than the Druid one?

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Originally Posted by Niara
To Demoulis and Dragonsnooz... While it's an interesting back and forth, I'd personally appreciate it if you either let it rest, or made a new thread to have the discussion in - at this stage it's very far removed from the topic of the thread and the discussion that others are attempting to have around you.

==

I'm in that group of people who aren't annoyed by the salami thing per se, but rather, a little agitated that they spent more words, images and update space talking about this joke weapon gimmick that they have had *someone* at least dedicate time and resources to making and putting in the game, than they gave to actual content information. This is the sort of thing that should be an easter egg, tucked away to be found and discovered as a fun surprise and a hat tip to those in the know. Falling over themselves to tell you the joke in laborious fashion largely removes all sense of humour from the act, and definitely robs it of any possible charm it might have had as well.

I'm looking forward to see what they do with Sorcerer, but I'm concerned at the moment that one of Larian's statements was that they wanted to get the hard and difficult things in first... and yet we've still not seen a proper reaction system. There's a big update for magic, spells and casting coming in the future (or so it has been suggested), though, so the hope is that it's all there, with that.
Sorry, I did offer DMs.

Salami as an improvised weapon shouldn't really change anything about the game overall. And sorcerer has had data-mined spells for a while now, so I think it's more of a put out a new class sooner than later. A shift away from classes by order of difficulty. Also, after druid are any classes really that difficult? They should be mostly equivalent.

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I'm happy to hear the addition of Sorcerer, and can understand why the team decided to include this class: it's popular and they already had a lot of the means to create it (by this I mostly mean the spells as game data). Patience with the process is important. Don't expect very complex classes and races right out the gate with this if you want a quality game. I imagine the reason they're going these particular routes is to build upon the classes and races that already exist (using the existing game data) to build something more niche. All I'm saying is that it makes sense. I appreciate the developers' effort.

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Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Salami as an improvised weapon shouldn't really change anything about the game overall. And sorcerer has had data-mined spells for a while now, so I think it's more of a put out a new class sooner than later. A shift away from classes by order of difficulty. Also, after druid are any classes really that difficult? They should be mostly equivalent.
Bards in particular are probably difficult. People have determined that expertise is in the game, sure, but two big bardic features are reactions and bardic inspiration. Inspiration is particularly tricky: is it a separate icon (clunky)? Is it just automatically applied on your next d20 roll (weak)? Does it open a pop-up prompt with every d20 roll until you use it (seemingly against Larian's philosophy)? Does it apply to all d20 rolls made in the next round? Implementing bard isn't difficult in a technical sense, but it very much involves complicated decisions that might affect other systems.

Originally Posted by Roethen
I'm happy to hear the addition of Sorcerer, and can understand why the team decided to include this class: it's popular and they already had a lot of the means to create it (by this I mostly mean the spells as game data). Patience with the process is important. Don't expect very complex classes and races right out the gate with this if you want a quality game. I imagine the reason they're going these particular routes is to build upon the classes and races that already exist (using the existing game data) to build something more niche. All I'm saying is that it makes sense. I appreciate the developers' effort.
I understand advocation for patience and understnading (especially with covid), but "right out of the gate" is a bit misleading at this point imo. It has been a year of EA, and 3-4 years of working on the game. It's not that unreasonable to expect that more classes would have been released by now. There's also the question of: what does releasing sorcerer get Larian? Is it just to please fans who want new content? Or is there an aspect of sorcerer that is relevant to EA testing and balance? Both are fine, but tbh I'd prefer that Larian released content that fulfilled the latter, since earlier testing and feedback (the point of EA) would better help Larian develop the game.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
Salami as an improvised weapon shouldn't really change anything about the game overall. And sorcerer has had data-mined spells for a while now, so I think it's more of a put out a new class sooner than later. A shift away from classes by order of difficulty. Also, after druid are any classes really that difficult? They should be mostly equivalent.
Bards in particular are probably difficult. People have determined that expertise is in the game, sure, but two big bardic features are reactions and bardic inspiration. Inspiration is particularly tricky: is it a separate icon (clunky)? Is it just automatically applied on your next d20 roll (weak)? Does it open a pop-up prompt with every d20 roll until you use it (seemingly against Larian's philosophy)? Does it apply to all d20 rolls made in the next round? Implementing bard isn't difficult in a technical sense, but it very much involves complicated decisions that might affect other systems.
I can see bard having long meetings about design, same as we've been waiting for an update on reactions.

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Originally Posted by Niara
To Demoulis and Dragonsnooz... While it's an interesting back and forth, I'd personally appreciate it if you either let it rest, or made a new thread to have the discussion in - at this stage it's very far removed from the topic of the thread and the discussion that others are attempting to have around you.
Yeah I apolagize for that. Dident mean to disrupt this thread discussion with another discussion alltogether smirk

@Dragonsnooz lets agree to disagree on this subject matter. We both brought up points for and against and we just arent coming eye to eye on it.

About sorcerer beeing the easiest to implement.... Im not to sure about that. I think if Larian has to implement every single metamagic combo and how they interact with further magic in the same turn it might run into a very decent amount of code that they need to implement. Also dont forget its not just supposed to implement for purely sorcerer classes. If someone multiclasses and uses metamagic for spells outside of the sorcerer spellbook the effect needs to apply as well.

I dont know how complicated or easy that is, but that doesent sound like 'the easiest job' to me...

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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Any news yet on what makes this patch bigger than the Druid one?

My best guess after watching Datamine Videos is expanded Act1 Areal.
Bit more in the underground like that Dueargar Camp after the Boattrip there. At the point where normally the Act1 Early Access ends.

Wenn new Class like Sorcerer is integratet it might mean that the Magic system has been reworked and shaped that you see the differents when playing a Wizzard, a Cleric or a Sorcerer.
Spellusing is normally not just that everyone can use everything.
So a more defined Magicsystem might blow up Gamepatch, aswell as new Textures, new creatures more geometry wise as therea are a lot of new objects ingame.

But,... that does not mean that everything will be accessable in EA Version.
As in Datamined Videos proof, theres so much more in your BG3 Files which u never see when playing EA BG3.
So alot of stuff is just in the files but not playable.
That a simply is another reason for a bloated Patch.

Probably its a mix of everything.
New things and old things replaced, updated, filled in for future use, etc ,etc.

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Originally Posted by spacehamster95
If you look at reddit, there are plenty of people who vibe with their sense of humor.
If anything, that sounds like an additional argument against it.


Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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I've modded in new spells and looked through their upcasting solution for other spells. Upcasted versions are just new entries with one or two variables changed; off the top of my head the only difference between "bless" and "bless_2" etc is something like "MaximumTargets=4" and spellslot costs=2 instead of 3 and 1 respectively etc.

Metamagic will just add a multiplier to variables like range, targets, duration etc. It's not complicated compared to reactions, metamagic is definitely easier.

edit

the existing bard and sorcerer mods on nexusmods also add weight to the position that sorcerer is easier to code than bard as the implementation is closer to RAW for the sorcerer than the bard

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Originally Posted by Blade238
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I dunno ...
Seems sad to me that people can even potentialy get so incredibly upset by the fact that their character is "able" to hold salami as a weapon. -_-
They didn't say they were upset? They were just pointing out that it isn't funny to them.
Then, logicaly, they were not people i was talking about. wink
Simple as that. laugh

As spacehamster95 said:
"If you look at reddit, there are plenty of people who vibe with their sense of humor."

And if you look deeper, you can easily find people who are regulary upset about it ...
Those are people i was talking about. smile

Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Ok it could be a fun meme made by Padzi really ! But something they really work on and implement in the game ? A "serious" and "mature" game with salami as weapons ?
More like as one of several dozens potential weapons ...
I mean we allready could throw it to damage someone, is abylity to slap someone over face with it so different? o_O

Personaly i believe it could be potentialy excelent silly weapon ...
I would give it 1Damage period (no damage rolls, sorry) ... and durability roll with Dificiulty 15 for Salami to break, and therefore become unusable as a weapon. :P
And i cant imagine why would people mind ... sure, if Salami would actualy give 1d8 Bludgeoning, i would be first against it, but as long as it stays as useless weapon as salami would actualy be ... i dont see any problem. laugh We allready can equip kitchen knives and cleavers ... pans would be wecomed too. :P

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
But if Larian devotes a too-large portion of time: making jokes about the salami, constantly referencing the salami, and salami(!) is representative of other changes in this patch, then that's different. In this case I'd be disappointed that more time wasn't spent on things I find interesting - updated mechanics, story, NPCs, companions, Q&A with the audience - but instead was spent on a meme I don't particularly find funny.
I can absolutely understand that, it would be indeed unfortunate ...
But it would not be misstake of the salami. laugh

After all, in last PFH, we were also specificaly presented only few things ... but there was a lot more changes. :-/
I believe there is little misstake in our expectation too, PFH as far as i could tell, is not ment to be informative ... its ment to be a show, preferably fun show, with some tiny tidbits here and there ... then there are patch logs, released later, and their main purpose is being informative.

Originally Posted by Niara
they have had *someone* at least dedicate time and resources to making and putting in the game
Or, someone who seen last PFH thought "hells, this is actualy funny" and created that small part of code (basicaly just another weapon) by himself in his free time ... then present it to Swen and Swen was like "Hells, why not ... they asked for it, after all."
So they add it to the game and it cost litteraly nothing. laugh smile

Im not from game industry myself, but i was told by my friend working in CDPR that some easter eggs was created exactly like this. laugh

Originally Posted by Niara
I'm looking forward to see what they do with Sorcerer, but I'm concerned at the moment that one of Larian's statements was that they wanted to get the hard and difficult things in first... and yet we've still not seen a proper reaction system.
I honestly wonder how does it look in Larian ...
Is whole company focused on Sorcerer ... or are there separated departments, working on different classes, and wichever finish their work first we get? O_o
I mean, we were told in Patch 4 that Nick (the guy who turned into the cow) was responcible for implementing Druids (or something like that) yes? So, he could easily be either leader of project that was curently entire studio focused on ... or he was just leading his department. o_O

My point is ... if second option was the case, and Swen told us that they "want to" implement hard and dificiult things first ... that dont mean at all that they concidered Sorcerer to be hardest, they might just fail in their ambitions to implement Paladin (or *instert class here*) first. laugh

Also i dare to say that if they would like to implement easiest class ... they would start with Barbarian.

Originally Posted by DragonSnooz
A shift away from classes by order of difficulty. Also, after druid are any classes really that difficult? They should be mostly equivalent.
Paladin? O_o
I cant quite imagine how they want to implement Lay on Hands ... we kinda figured out Smite in other topic, it would not be perfect, but it would be acceptable, but LoH? As far as i know, nobody even talked about it so far. laugh

Also what is so hard about Druid? O_o
I mean, personaly i would like much more if we had to "scan" (its not the best word i know) beasts to get their forms into our list of shapeshift possibilities ... but except changing their stats in forms, they are basicaly another Wizard with different spells. laugh


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Upcasting is easier to code (I would assume) then metamagic would be. Because we know upfront what a spell's upcasted version is. Most of the times more damage, more projectiles or whatnot. Metamagic can be more nuanced then that though.

You can turn spells that cost 1 action to cast into bonus actions.
Make spells that only target 1 target suddenly target several.
Increase range, or in the case of spells with no range; give them range.
etc. etc.

Its alot more then just making upcast versions of excisting spells. Also if they would turn it into modifiers, when would they apply? Before casting? Would activating the metamagic feat that you want to use swap out your spells for different ones? If you want to remove somatic or verbal components, how do you pick between the 2 and how does it effect the spells? Is it easy code to just remove that portion of the spell in that case? Not to mention that if you got a metamagic option, it has to work for all spells that you can have. Add multiclassing to the mix and thats alot of spells that they have to make sure work properly.

Having said that, I dont code. So for all I know its actually alot easier then I think it is. But I can inmagine that with the big number of spell and metamagic combinations possible they needed some time for this. If nothing else, they got alot of variables to deal with. Because of that saying that Sorcerers are easy to implement isent necesarrily true I feel. Theres alot of things that metamagic can influence when you factor in dual classes. I plan to play all the casters with a single level of sorcerer just to see the wild magic shenanigans grin I would try to test the way metamagic works with other classes but uh...... Lvl 3 sorcerer/lvl 1 whatever class doesent really allow that much testing I think smirk

Also, bear in mind that most of the classes have 1 or more subclasses that gain spells from excisting spellcasters. Even the barbarian can gain some spells that he can cast. It makes sense to get the spellcasting done first, so if you need those subclasses' their spells (or feats that handle like spells) you have them on hand. Aside from that, most of the martial classes are pretty....simple. I think they want to get the more complicated things done first before they do the simpler ones to round up the classes.

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Originally Posted by Demoulius
Having said that, I dont code. So for all I know its actually alot easier then I think it is.

I do and it is. You seem to be focusing solely on the complexity metamagic but that's not the topic, it's the complexity of metamagic relative to bard reactions etc. You could easily create a rough version of metamagic that has a unique entry for every variation, it would be a bad implementation but it would work. That's not possible for bard reactions. They already have code to change spell variables in a similar manner to metamagic.

The status of the bard and sorcerer mods also backs up the assertion the sorcerer is less complicated to code that bards because the sorcerer implementation is closer to raw than the bard. You don't need to make any conjecture or wild estimates on a topic your not familiar with. Others have already done the work to prove this for you.

Focusing on the sorcerer goes against the stated objective of doing the difficult stuff first.

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Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
You could easily create a rough version of metamagic that has a unique entry for every variation, it would be a bad implementation but it would work. That's not possible for bard reactions. They already have code to change spell variables in a similar manner to metamagic.
How rough are we talking here? If its close but just a little off or abit messy in the code but gets the same effect?

Also dident they say they worked on spells in a general fashion? Maybe they remade some spells and made sure they were streamlined across the board. Bless brought up a aoe bubble IIRC that randomized which targets you buffed. While you are supposed to be able to pick what targets you buff in range. While at the same time magic missle allowed you to target 1 or 3 targets for its projectiles just fine. It felt off and some streamlining was defenitly needed. And some bug fixing to. Magic missle could hit objects in its path for example while its supposed to always hit <_<

Code and how much time it takes aside. I still think they did it because other classes with spell casting needed excisting spells and abilities for their own options. Like barbarian ritual casting with the totem warrior path for example.

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right now I could do rough (as in inefficient code) that is accurate in game but probably slower during loading. The sorcerer mod is making use of pre-existing sorcerer points and adding metamagic via scripting which is much neater.

The bugs with bless and magic missile are because they are changing spells to fit their preexisting dos2 game engine rather than changing their engine to create an accurate version of the spell. Magic missile can be blocked because it is a "projectile" type object, arrows are also projectile type game objects and the game engine says projectiles are blocked by terrain. That's why magic missile didn't work correctly.

For bless, it's because it's defined as a different game object than has no target attribute. So unless they change their engine, your choice for bless is no way to select targets or change bless to a projectile type object that can target but can also be blocked by terrain

Thess spells are not streamlined for gameplay, their nerfed because larian didn't want to bother changing their game engine. I really doubt they will be changed.

The existing spell casters use ritual casting far more than any barbarian subclass. If it's going to be implemented, it's not going to be because a barbarian subclass needs

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Good News!!! Sorcerers receive bonus bloodline spells (Tasha rule implemented).

Checking out this video on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/q3jwt9/draconic_bloodline_teaser_from_egx_day_1_live/

U can see that the sorcerer gets bonus first level known spell according to the draconic bloodline they choose. On another screenshot it seems, there is an alternative to draconic sorcery (please Wild Mage), but I have not been successful locating any info on that front.

Also, Chromatic Orb is implemented with the new update.

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Lovely!!! laugh

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Omg this looks awesome! (except the robe tho, that is at best quite good. :P )
Thanks for sharing. :3

//Edit:
So ... concidering the teaser ... it seems like we dont get starting equipment (yet?). frown
Also, since i allready talk about robe ... im i the only one who concider it sad that new classes gets so pretty armor, but older had just generic? :-(

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 08/10/21 05:06 PM.

I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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I think the wizard robe might have been a placeholder (or I hope at least, it looks like a bathrobe compared to the sorcerer's gear).

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I honestly hope they all are placeholders. frown

Rogue have too little pockets to my taste. :P
Ranger is too little blending in the forest to my taste. laugh
Not sure about Fighter and Cleric tho. :-/

I would say that Fighter should seem to be much more armed, but that is matter of more than just amor. :-/


I liked original spellcasting system more ... frown

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Originally Posted by TestyMcTesterson
Originally Posted by Demoulius
Having said that, I dont code. So for all I know its actually alot easier then I think it is.

I do and it is. You seem to be focusing solely on the complexity metamagic but that's not the topic, it's the complexity of metamagic relative to bard reactions etc. You could easily create a rough version of metamagic that has a unique entry for every variation, it would be a bad implementation but it would work. That's not possible for bard reactions. They already have code to change spell variables in a similar manner to metamagic.

The status of the bard and sorcerer mods also backs up the assertion the sorcerer is less complicated to code that bards because the sorcerer implementation is closer to raw than the bard. You don't need to make any conjecture or wild estimates on a topic your not familiar with. Others have already done the work to prove this for you.

Focusing on the sorcerer goes against the stated objective of doing the difficult stuff first.

I always figured that the whole 'we're working on the harder classes first' statement was just spur of the moment fluff that people unfortunately took at face value. And honestly quite frankly demeaning to fans of the 'less complicated (read: martial-focused)' classes. We already know Larian loves their explosions too, the balance for the melee were always atrocious compared to the mages in the DOS games.

Like I've said in a different thread, they're probably working on all of the classes at once. Sorcerer is probably the only one in a good enough state to release for EGX/the anniversary month, because virtually every other yet to be implemented class requires a working reaction system. Their presence at EGX was likely required in some way, so they had to save something for that.

Probably why we didn't get a class for patch 5 either, they needed to save Sorcerer for the anniversary just in case they couldn't get reactions/any other class ready in time. Though the silver lining is that Larian can't tiptoe around this issue any longer, we most definitely WILL have an answer for how they plan to implement reactions in the patch after this (and the wait for it may be longer than the one between patch 4 and 5 for this very reason), unless it's another story/cutscene-focused patch without a new class.

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