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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I dare to disagree Niara ...

Er.... with what exactly? I'm agreeing with you here, more or less - that it should be a setting that we can choose.

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The option, as others here have suggested, for a full normal 5e implementation, and a complete reaction/decision point system that does what it's supposed to... and then there to be options you can choose, between a full 'ask at every decision point', down to 'never pause my game at all' and however many grades in between they feel is appropriate, is the best solution, since it gives everyone what they want.

If you want a game that removes the hassle of making those decisions yourself and will handle them for you in its best guess at what's best, to make your play experience as uninterrupted as possible, that's cool, and I absolutely support you having that option, but it MUST be an option only.

I basically wrote to agree with you that having it as a setting people can choose from different degrees of is ideal.


To Ikke,

Even those cases, as marginal as they are, are not acceptably fool-proof for always-on automation... you could have the game designed to always automatically use your OA if it's triggered by something directly before you in the initiative, but:

...Then it's an acid troll, or a fire elemental, or any number of other creatures that deal return damage on melee attacks, and you would, as a character on lower hp conscientiously not have taken the swing... oops, you're dead.
...Or it's a fresh-off-the-press larian adaptation that explodes into a large puddle of damaging poison when killed, and you would have preferred to let it run away so you could kill it from range... oops you're dead.
...Or you're a spellcaster and that creature that's moving away from you is doing so so that it can cast fireball on your whole party... and now you can't counterspell it because you automatically took your reaction as an opportunity attack... oops, you're all dead.

Outside of OAs, if it's a spell reaction, then it's never 'left over' at all, because it's a choice about whether you want to burn a spell slot or not... and that's NOT a choice they should EVER be taking out of your hands.

(Not sure what you mean by the second suggestion, sorry... could you explain what you're getting at there a bit more?)

==

Definitely agree that there are far too many other far more tedious things bogging down the game that deserve attention...

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In that case i missunderstanded you and im sorry. laugh

It seemed to me that you were against automatic reactions, since in most cases they make more harm than good ... and while that is certainly true, it didnt seem to me like reason to get rid of them completely ...
But i stand corected now. smile

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 12/10/21 11:46 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by 1varangian
I'll take anything as long as the game does not pause the action during an attack animation and prompt me every. single. time. I hit something.

So you are in the camp that wants less precision and control, and does not want the ability to choose what you react to and when, and if you use your particular abilities or not, etc.,

<SNIPETY SNIP>

Give me one single, solitary example of a reaction or other decision point where it 'makes sense' to fully automate it to an 'always do it this way' system, without similarly crippling the player's agency in regard to that ability, or causing them to waste it on unintended or detrimental moments.

If you've got any, I'm willing to hear them - if any exist that are legitimately so, they'd be good candidates for text-to-video game QoL conversion.
I'm not going to waste time debating the nuances of a system we don't know much about yet.

But I am giving a tentative yes to Larian's general idea that reactions need to be more fluid in a video game. Constant prompts and interruptions would make the game really annoying to play and something needs to change.

Last edited by 1varangian; 12/10/21 07:13 PM.
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A slow motion system during a few seconds when a reaction is possible could be cool IMO.
With a popup appearing with clickable icons of your options of reactions so it can be done really fast if you want.
But ofc with an option to pause the slow motion if you have to think about it a bit more.

It would not interrupt the game, just slow it for a few seconds each time you can react.

It won't happen a lot IMO. Divine smite can stay a toggle when you're attacking and just a slow motion thing for your characters AOO.
Usual AOO could probably stay automatic - there are so few ennemies in melee and we only have a party of 4 so TBH, I didn't feel the need to really manage my own AOO at this point.

I probably forgot a lot of things but thinking about Solasta, that's the most common reactions.
Others really need specific conditions so I guess it would not slow the game too often (someone pushed off a cliff, someone targetting your wizard with a magic missile or a ranged weapons,...)
Counterspell could be a problem though.

That said I definitely agree with OP.
As another non D&D player that learned the rules specificaly because all discussions on this forum... I'd rather have a pause each time than the toggles.
Reactions is an amazing opportunity to make turn based games less frozen, allowing players to react even when it's not their turns. Pause or not, combats would be faster and way more interresting, unpredictable, tactical,...

It would be a real shame not to take advantage of this very dynamic system in a usually very frozen one. If they succeed with reactions, I guess it could be a major update for TB games for years.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 12/10/21 08:29 PM.
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If you did the prompt as an exponential slowdown to a terminus pause, then players who respond and decide quickly (within the first second), would not experience any actual interruption, since the action would still be tangibly moving. If you wait longer, it slows more until it reaches the full pause point to wait for you. That would allow for the option to put a time limit on them smoothly as well, if people want that, since the slow-to-terminus could just as easily be the aesthetic depiction of your time limit.

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I think that would be ideal. I can definitely picture how that could be made to look quite clean if done well. I think they could also do some other stuff in terms of how the prompt is displayed on screen to make it much less intrusive and more intuitive/fast than perhaps some would imagine. It also has the benefit of indulging a bit of the action game influence with more active engagement during enemy turns.

A frequent complaint about BG3 combat has been that it is kind of slow, and fears about it becoming even slower are often a motivating argument behind not developing something for this game. Even where the concepts might seem promising, or have a precedent from the earlier BG games or from D&D sourcebooks -the apprehension remains and isn't totally unwarranted given what we've seen so far. The number of enemies to party members ratio tilts heavily towards the enemies here, and there are many set piece combats where "friendly allies" are added into the mix too, which can make the whole thing feel even more protracted. A proper reactions system would alleviate that feeling somewhat, because there would be more opportunities for active engagement on the enemies turns, as opposed to just spectating for long periods.

I have yet to play this game in any form of MP or Co-Op, but I'd imagine that in a fight with a dozen or more participants, and if the PC was only controlling one of them, many fights would feel like the 'everyone else but me' show. Whereas the slowdown to terminus thing would perhaps incentivize players to be extra attentive, instead of tuning out during combat. Like that never really happens on the table top, the tuning out I mean. Once the battle is joined everyone is generally hyper focused, cause that's when the stakes are highest. In this game though, you can almost phone it in (especially the way saves work here at any point) so that might be another reason to really invest in the Reactions concept, instead of running away from it.

Quick Slo Mo might sound like a contradiction, but I can totally see it working for something like this. And again, if someone doesn't like the way that feels, they could default to auto, or turn it off entirely, or do a very tight window before the chance disappears like the 3 second idea. It also doesn't have to actually be a slow motion animation per se, but just an extra bit of animation that signals a Reaction capable situation. You know, like perhaps the enemy does a brief flamboyant gesture with an extra bit of audio to key off, or the PC does the same similar to what the OP described in his counterspell example. So instead of being an actual pause, its just a more elaborate and cool looking extension of the standard animations.

I think what they should really try to avoid is doing this anything like a mini-cutscene animation, or like a crit zoom, or where the camera is constantly taken away from the player's control to try and be all extra flashy about it. I also don't think they should present Reactions like a dialog prompt in the middle of the screen, or as a dramatic dice rolling animation thing that's all in our faces. Better if it remain down by the main GUI controls near the bottom of the screen, but just highlight while the slowdown to terminus thing is going on. The animation while this all occurs should have a seamless flow.

In my experience with other table top dice games that have been translated into computer dice games, it is always best to have 3 options there too: display animated dice, quick dice, or hidden dice where only the results are shown. This also works better when it is presented not in a separate window, or in the middle of the screen, but rather somewhere off to the side or the bottom where it's less intrusive. I think people appreciate the transparency of dice games, but that doesn't mean they always want to have the game being slowed down by the dice rolling flavor. The varying attitudes towards Reactions will probably be pretty similar to the varying attitudes towards dice. Sometimes people may want to see the full spectacle, other times perhaps not. Better to have all that stuff be more a preference that can be quickly toggled on the fly from the settings. Anyhow, I like the idea quite a lot. I think the concept presented in Solasta is pretty cool, but it could be made to look much cleaner and feel less like a break in the action, but rather something that enhances it. Hopefully they do something more with Reactions than what we've seen thus far. I also still think a general pause function would be really quite helpful. The game's combat system doesn't have to be built entirely around it, but it should still exist.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 13/10/21 10:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by 1varangian
.
But I am giving a tentative yes to Larian's general idea that reactions need to be more fluid in a video game. Constant prompts and interruptions would make the game really annoying to play and something needs to change.

I played Solasta. Reactions weren't annoying.

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Originally Posted by Droata
Originally Posted by 1varangian
.
But I am giving a tentative yes to Larian's general idea that reactions need to be more fluid in a video game. Constant prompts and interruptions would make the game really annoying to play and something needs to change.

I played Solasta. Reactions weren't annoying.

Exactly!

Solasta reactions usually take less than a second to respond. Use Shield? Sure. Use Smite? Not this time. Take Opportunity Attack? Of course. Simple, straightforward, easy!

The prompts were actually a cool reminder of some more unique reactions that I would forget in TT.

Solasta would even prompt me when I would cast a concentration spell when I was already concentrating on another one to confirm that was what I wanted to do. I loved that! Solasta designers REALLY understood 5e.

Prompts NEVER slowed down the game IMO.

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Solasta have good reaction system without a doubt ...
Could be better tho. :P


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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