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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
if its more modular that is. I like the idea. Certainly better than the current
I think modular is key here so people can move things around snap on and off move left or right, hide parts...

IF they want us to snap portraits around... Why not let us snap whole UI modules.:)

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by robertthebard
In so far as "convenient" goes, this is pretty convenient. Hit the appropriate checkboxes in the UI section of Options, and then organize your bars to the way you want them. Then it won't change, unless you change it. As it is right now, despite your claim to the contrary, I can already start playing w/out a ton of management, because there's just not that much I need to manage starting out.
The bar won't change if you don't do anything, sure. But a big part of 5e/BG3 is learning and preparing different spells, getting abilities from items, and consumables. So unless you never level up, never prepare different spells, never equip items with abilities, and don't plan on using any consumables, your hotbar will change and require further management. Whereas, for example, a dedicated pop-up spellbook would automatically keep track of any changes in prepared/known spells. Similarly, dedicated "consumable item" and "character abilities" (e.g., battlemaster maneuvers) mini windows would also be great.

That latter sentence is not a good argument because we're only seeing levels 1-4 right now. Level 8+ characters will have 2-3 times as many options as level 4 characters. What (arguably) works for EA doesn't necessarily scale to the full game.

Except I already addressed this earlier in the thread. As the UI is right now, we have 100 available slots, over 5 pages. Since you won't have 20 level X spells, you'll have room to put multiple levels of spells on the bar, in different locations. Even taking it to level 10, I'd still bet I'd have empty pages, depending on whether I think I need to have every scroll I ever pick up on the bar or not. Since having multiple spell levels of a spell still only equates to one spell per level, and the number of spells per level is limited, you're not going to fill up slots any faster than if you could only learn new spells, and couldn't have the same spell taking up a different slot per level. What character level will yield 10 spells per level? Assuming 10 spells per level, and full access to 9th level spells, which won't be a thing, ever, you'd still have a full row of empty slots for items/potions/other abilities. That's assuming 10 spells per level, for each level, which will not be a thing.

At level 20 you'll only have 22 total spells, on a pure caster:

Lvl. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 2 — — — — — — — —
2nd 3 — — — — — — — —
3rd 4 2 — — — — — — —
4th 4 3 — — — — — — —
5th 4 3 2 — — — — — —
6th 4 3 3 — — — — — —
7th 4 3 3 1 — — — — —
8th 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th 4 3 3 3 1 — — — —
10th 4 3 3 3 2 — — — —
11th 4 3 3 3 2 1 — — —
12th 4 3 3 3 2 1 — — —
13th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 — —
14th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 — —
15th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 —
16th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 —
17th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1
18th 4 3 3 3 3 1 1 1 1
19th 4 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
20th 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1

How are we short any slots, again? Looking at this chart, it's apparent that you could set your bars up in some really wonky ways, and still have lots of empty slots for potions/scrolls/items etc.. This is going all the way to 20, which we won't see, initially anyway. At level 15, I could have all my available spells on one page, with two empty slots. Meaning that I'd have plenty of room to set up spell levels for spells I may want to use a different level for. Since the hot bar won't change, if I set up the checkboxes at level 1, those spells will always be right where I put them, unless I choose to swap a spell out at some point, at which time I'll have to manually add it, in the slot of the spell it's replacing. From a purely RP perspective, this is me, literally preparing my spells for the next day. What I can see happening, however, is "look, they're using a system similar to what's in DoS 2, so DoS 3", from some of the same people insisting this is a good idea.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
At level 20 you'll only have 22 total spells, on a pure caster:

Lvl. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 2 — — — — — — — —
2nd 3 — — — — — — — —
3rd 4 2 — — — — — — —
4th 4 3 — — — — — — —
5th 4 3 2 — — — — — —
6th 4 3 3 — — — — — —
7th 4 3 3 1 — — — — —
8th 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th 4 3 3 3 1 — — — —
10th 4 3 3 3 2 — — — —
11th 4 3 3 3 2 1 — — —
12th 4 3 3 3 2 1 — — —
13th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 — —
14th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 — —
15th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 —
16th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 —
17th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1
18th 4 3 3 3 3 1 1 1 1
19th 4 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
20th 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
Yes, and how is it better then what we are asking for?

You get more or less the same functionality we want, except:
1) you have to manually set it up to start with and manage it after every level up, every long rest in which you changed your spell repertoire
2) You cant at a glance look through your spells, as you have to manually scroll through one and every level one at the time. So if you have "hotbar" on page1, and want to see spells of 4th level you need to scroll all the way through pages 2-5, and perhaps back again if you want something from your hotbar (like potion) for bonus action.
3) it still doesn't allow to create an easy "folder" for items, and considering how many items BG3 throws at you that would be greatly desirable (like the example above, where I assume clicking on scroll case would display all scrolls in that characters inventory - same would be nice for quaver for arrows etc)

As far as I am concerned tedious scrolling from through pages of hotbars one after another is not a valid option that's why: hotbar isn't enough to organise all spells. If they want all physically fit in one hotbar, then it needs a better system on top of the hotbar it provides.

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Do it like the Pathfinder video games did it. It's simple and easy to lern cause if you wanna cast a lvl 3 spell click on the "3" and choose your spell.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by robertthebard
At level 20 you'll only have 22 total spells, on a pure caster:

Lvl. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 2 — — — — — — — —
2nd 3 — — — — — — — —
3rd 4 2 — — — — — — —
4th 4 3 — — — — — — —
5th 4 3 2 — — — — — —
6th 4 3 3 — — — — — —
7th 4 3 3 1 — — — — —
8th 4 3 3 2 — — — — —
9th 4 3 3 3 1 — — — —
10th 4 3 3 3 2 — — — —
11th 4 3 3 3 2 1 — — —
12th 4 3 3 3 2 1 — — —
13th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 — —
14th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 — —
15th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 —
16th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 —
17th 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1
18th 4 3 3 3 3 1 1 1 1
19th 4 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
20th 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
Yes, and how is it better then what we are asking for?

You get more or less the same functionality we want, except:
1) you have to manually set it up to start with and manage it after every level up, every long rest in which you changed your spell repertoire
2) You cant at a glance look through your spells, as you have to manually scroll through one and every level one at the time. So if you have "hotbar" on page1, and want to see spells of 4th level you need to scroll all the way through pages 2-5, and perhaps back again if you want something from your hotbar (like potion) for bonus action.
3) it still doesn't allow to create an easy "folder" for items, and considering how many items BG3 throws at you that would be greatly desirable (like the example above, where I assume clicking on scroll case would display all scrolls in that characters inventory - same would be nice for quaver for arrows etc)

As far as I am concerned tedious scrolling from through pages of hotbars one after another is not a valid option that's why: hotbar isn't enough to organise all spells. If they want all physically fit in one hotbar, then it needs a better system on top of the hotbar it provides.

If only there were more detail in the post you "quoted" here, yes? Oh wait, there was. The only thing I didn't see in the UI that would be great to have is a way to swap pages via a hotkey. With that, I don't have to take up any extra real estate on the screen with yet another element. Wasn't that the point of this thread, initially? So the suggestion morphs into "We need to reduce the real estate taken up by this element, by adding yet another element to the screen".

They apparently don't want all the items on one hot bar, that's why we have 5 hot bars. The solution for scrolling through your hot bars is scrolling through your spell book? What's the difference? Oh, you need another UI element added to the screen to call it up, along with one for potions, and one for scrolls? It doesn't seem like you're reducing the real estate to me, it seems like you're taking up more of it, and that's before you ever open whichever element you're looking to open, which then adds yet another element to the screen, compounding the clutter on the screen.

Aren't there enough "but DoS 3" posts in the forums, and flooding YouTube already? There's a similar system in DoS 2 after all.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
They apparently don't want all the items on one hot bar, that's why we have 5 hot bars. The solution for scrolling through your hot bars is scrolling through your spell book? What's the difference? Oh, you need another UI element added to the screen to call it up, along with one for potions, and one for scrolls? It doesn't seem like you're reducing the real estate to me, it seems like you're taking up more of it, and that's before you ever open whichever element you're looking to open, which then adds yet another element to the screen, compounding the clutter on the screen.
The title of the thread might not be my finest work, but I thought the first post made it clear that I complain about patch6 reducing size of the hotbar creating problems that I worried about since I played the beta for the first time. Honestly, after my first playthrough I refunded the game, because how terrible controls in D:OS2 and BG3 were. Decided to return seeing how promising patch5 was, but UI is still horrific. Making hotbar bigger is a must, but I don't consider it to be good enough of a solution.

The boon of UI like BG1&2, Solasta, or PoE (and to lesser extend Pathfinder) is that I don't have to manually set it up with every new character, with every levelup and after every long rest - that bit is very important to me. More playtime I can spend having good time, and less time I have to spend doing tedious management the better. Look at PoE1&2 for what I consider the finest UI to date- spell folders open when hovered over, making it easy to "scroll" through available spells.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
In BG3 upcasting is the only issue, as indicating what resources it consumes, or what spells it might prevent you from casting is tricky - that however is a problem that currect UI doesn't resolve either.



EDIT: One thing that PoE UI doesn't do well is item management. Many items, few slots - the end result was that outside some exceptions, I barely used items in PoE1&2 - it was just too tedious to use them.

In BG3 item "folders" (show all arrows/scrolls/potions/granades in that person inventory) would help in cutting inventory management in half. At the moment:
1) I have to decide who will have this item for use by picking it up with that character or sending it to that character
2) then I have to manually assign this item to their hotbar, or I will forget about it.

A nice expandable "folder" for items would erase the need for 2) maybe except the regularly commonly used items like healing potions that I would like to have on my hotbar regardless.

So, thinking from two sides:



Improving current Hotbar system

1) it needs to be bigger then it is
2) has to allow to switch to any hotbar I want without a need to scroll through them using a tiny button
3) Block "-/+" for shortening/expanding hotbar when the hotbar is "locked".
4) I think, that upcasting "folder" should expend upon hovering, not after clicking on the icon (like PoE spell levels folders). Clicking on the icon should cast the base spell. If we want to "upcast it" we can use the "folder" to pick the upcasted version.




My prefered solution: new, better UI - more information, less magement

A better UI all together, inspired by other DnD and DnD-like games - BG1&2, PoE, Pathfinder, Solasta, as imagined by far more talented then me @Lastman
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Couple further suggestions:
1) With lowere level cap, there will be lower amount of available spell levels, so item folders (for scrolls/arrows/potions) would preferably be on the same bar, rather then below. I also think that "folders" should open up by hovering over them, to make "scrolling" thorugh actions/spells/items easier, and reduce unneeded clicks. Things like weapon actions, martial skills etc. shoud be sorted that way as well, and ideally have clear, automatic division between full and bonus actions.

2) Item folders should show all items of that type in that character's inventory

3) Spell folder icons, should also show resources available (like in PoE UI) rather then be in a seperate place.

4) perhaps when scrolling through "upcast" option it could open below relevant spell level folder to draw attention to how much resource in that spell level we have left, and what other spells we could cast (or won't be able to cast if it is our last resource) at the cost of upcasting.

5) please, don't be Owlcat games, and hide handy spell UI, behind clickable, expandable thing that we need to expand and hide with every spell cast.

6) No one wants "hotbar" removed. It should however, be a hotbar, and not have to carry the weight of all skills and items on our disposal.

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That's what hot bars are for, hence the name. Instead of clicking to open an element, clicking to get what we want, clicking to close the element, or auto closing on use, we have an icon for that item on the hot bar, so we just click/use the hot key for that item. If only I'd suggested something to make getting to the different pages easier, wait, I did, in the post you quoted here, but, for some reason, you chose to edit that out for your response.

Ctrl 1-5 to get to a specific page, once on that page, 1-0 for the top bar, and maybe Shift 1-0 for the bottom bar on that page. Since we're Turn Based, that latter bit may not be strictly necessary, you can just as easily click the appropriate icon on that page, and that wasn't included in my previous post. Hot keys for swapping bars was. I have also mentioned having the items/skills/spells that aren't on their own bar already on Page 1, for easier access to them, but again, since we're TB, I'm not sure what difference it would make, but it would be easier to access them.

Yes, some management, and initial set up is required. However, contrary to your claim, you did have to set up your bars in BG 1 and 2 for sure. My cleric wouldn't be using the same items and spells as my wizard, which wouldn't be using the same stuff as my rogue, which wouldn't be using the same stuff as my fighter. This means I'm setting up equipment, ammunition and spells, where applicable, to every character, including not having any spells at all where a class didn't have any spells. Inventory and hot bar management are part of the game, even on TT, where hot bars aren't an issue, they're not a thing. However, you do have to manually set up your spells per day. As I also said earlier, doing this is literally preparing my spells for the day. Once I have items assigned to their appropriate slots, for me, I don't have to redo it every time, on that character. I do have to add new spells, or hot key new arrows, if I'm using them, etc., but that's part of the game, which is far superior to having them automatically added, and then having to sort them where I want them.

As far as size goes, yeah, they could let us adjust it. Not all of us are 20 years old, with excellent eyesight. I'm about to be 20 for the third time.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Yes, some management, and initial set up is required. However, contrary to your claim, you did have to set up your bars in BG 1 and 2 for sure. My cleric wouldn't be using the same items and spells as my wizard, which wouldn't be using the same stuff as my rogue, which wouldn't be using the same stuff as my fighter. This means I'm setting up equipment, ammunition and spells, where applicable, to every character, including not having any spells at all where a class didn't have any spells. Inventory and hot bar management are part of the game, even on TT, where hot bars aren't an issue, they're not a thing.
But hotbar and inventory/spells aren't even the same thing! Inventory and spells you decide to equip are a mechanic. hotbar is not. It's UI. User Interface. A thing you use to interact with the mechanics. It's not the same as deciding what spells to memorise or what to put on your characters. It's like having to set up keybindings before every game and after every level up. Sure it's nice to have customisable bindings, but I don't want to have to sit down, figure out how the game works and figure out my bindings before I start to play. That's why board games have inserts so you can start playing with as little hassle as possible. That's why games have friendly UIs.

I read through your post, and I saw what you wrote. I am not claiming that currest system is unplayable. It's unoptimised, unfriendly, and unnecessarily tedious.

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Where did I say they were the same thing? I said they were part of the game, and they are a part of the game in every game I've ever played that has inventory and/or spells. Some games limit inventory, for example, by weight, some by the number of slots.

So clicking a new element to open a new interface every time I want to use something is less tedious than opening the existing interface, and assigning the spell/skill/item to a hot bar? Damn, games have been doing this "wrong" for decades then, yes? If it's going to be "but I can do it once, and add it to a quick slot", then they could spend their development time on more important things, like adding a mechanic that informs the player that one or more of the comps have story beats to advance, and they need to do it in camp, because we can already just add whatever to a quick slot. If you're convinced that clicking multiple elements, every time we want to use an item/potion or spell, is less tedious, then we have very different definitions for tedious. I much prefer locking the hot bars from having items added or removed, and putting whatever items/spells on a specific quick slot once, and referring to that quick slot when I want to use it. Once and done, unless I swap a spell out for a different one, then I have to change it once, and can do it while I'm doing whatever I needed to do to swap it out. Add/use a hotkey to swap bars, and it's already more convenient/less tedious than opening the spell book/scroll case/potion case etc. and using whatever. Which seems rather user friendly to me. That may be why it's been a thing for as long as it has, yes?

Concerning optimized, my set up is pretty optimized for what I'm doing with it. Contrary to the argument made which led to me providing the spell chart previously, there are plenty of quick slots to take us to max level, with loads of empty quick slots, just adding spells. Hot bar optimization is up to the player. Not because devs can't make an optimized version, but because players are going to want very different things from the hot bar. I want very different things on there between different classes. My rogue, for example, has ranged skills on the top part of the bar, and melee skills on the bottom row, but my sorc has spells/cantrips in those slots instead. Different versions of optimization, with the only thing that changes being the class I'm playing, and how I'm playing it. That rogue, for example, my have all their arrows/bolts assigned to page 2, so that I can swap to that page, and select which arrows I want to use. I can arrange them however I choose on that page, which means that I have full control of how optimized that page is for that rogue. I may well want something different for a different class. If we had bards, and they had different songs, I could set them up there instead, or I could put them at the end of the second row on page 1. This makes them convenient, fully optimized for that class, and user friendly, since I'll know where they are, and how to get to them with a minimum amount of effort, including setting them up to my tastes.

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Originally Posted by Lastman
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
I was thinking about this picture lately ...
And i must admit that the more i think about two separate action bars stretched to full size of screen, from both sides from Character Picture ... the more i like it. laugh

[Linked Image from i.kym-cdn.com]
Still believe that one huge bar is better tho. :P

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 22/10/21 06:59 PM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
[quote=Lastman]
And i must admit that the more i think about two separate action bars stretched to full size of screen, from both sides from Character Picture ... the more i like it. laugh
ow you mean one of those

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The poison bottle could be a submenu for all the coatings you have incuding a candle - trick. So i don't have to drop the candele all the time and then forget to pick it up. pfff hate it when that happens.

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Originally Posted by Lastman
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
The poison bottle could be a submenu for all the coatings you have incuding a candle - trick. So i don't have to drop the candele all the time and then forget to pick it up. pfff hate it when that happens.
I dont like submenus so i would probably not use them anyway (not even that spells icons ... i dare to presume they would be draggable to bar, but it would also allow to throw them all away and arange stuff however you like)

So except that ... this is beautiful! :3


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Came in to add that unless this hotbar gets rehauled, playing a spellcaster on this game at high levels is going to be an absolute mess that I will refuse.

It's impossible to have a functional hotbar in this game in its current state. I don't want to have to scroll through multiple pages using a tiny button just to access all of my spells and abilities. We shouldn't have to put individual spells on the hotbar unless we want to.

I should be able to place a Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, etc. button on the hotbar and select my spells that way.

ALSO, for hotbar items that do allow you to customize a spell (e.g. Hex), the order of the the secondary actions should not change. In the case of Hex, the order of the buttons should be exactly like the order your abilities are listed: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, and not in the random order they populate.

So. Annoying.

Fun game with senseless little annoyances like this that I sincerely hope get fixed.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Artorius
Came in to add that unless this hotbar gets rehauled, playing a spellcaster on this game at high levels is going to be an absolute mess that I will refuse.

It's impossible to have a functional hotbar in this game in its current state. I don't want to have to scroll through multiple pages using a tiny button just to access all of my spells and abilities. We shouldn't have to put individual spells on the hotbar unless we want to.

I should be able to place a Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, etc. button on the hotbar and select my spells that way.

ALSO, for hotbar items that do allow you to customize a spell (e.g. Hex), the order of the the secondary actions should not change. In the case of Hex, the order of the buttons should be exactly like the order your abilities are listed: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, and not in the random order they populate.

So. Annoying.

Fun game with senseless little annoyances like this that I sincerely hope get fixed.
+ Infinite laugh


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There is a lot of discussion here about what kind of interface the game should have, at least with respect to the hotbar. Here's my $.02:

1) I want expandable hot bars. I have a large monitor and want to take advantage of that real estate. That's kind of why I got multiple large monitors in the first place. Please let me expand the bars horizontally and vertically.
2) I want an option to self-sort the hot bar so that the spells, scrolls, potions, etc., are all grouped with each other. Perhaps whether it is sorted or not can be an option.
3) I want the option to turn off automatic additions to the hot bars, so that I can decide exactly what I add. I know that sounds like it conflicts with #2, but I'm fickle.
4) I'm old. My eyes are not what they used to be. Finding those tiny buttons on the hot bar to scroll up and down or switch states isn't as easy as it used to be.

The user interface is second only to content in importance in a game, at least to me. A bad interface can make a less enjoyable, awkward, or completely unplayable. It is worth spending the time and resources to get it right.

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Originally Posted by Thorn13
3) I want the option to turn off automatic additions to the hot bars, so that I can decide exactly what I add. I know that sounds like it conflicts with #2, but I'm fickle.

You do have that option! It's in the game settings, but might have moved to UI settings with patch 6

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My wife has some additional suggestions.

1) Have a separate bar for spells, abilities, and items.
2) Have an easy way to identify what the cost is, bonus action, action, etc., without having to depend on a tooltip
3) Make it more obvious what can and can't be used at a given moment via better highlighting.

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Originally Posted by Thorn13
1) Have a separate bar for spells, abilities, and items.
Add word "optional" and its perfect. :P


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They never get this because everyone would like a different kind of U.I. or has a different Concept of what a Perfect U.I. would be like.

I just want separate Hotbars for all Spells, Skills and Items since you are gonna have MultiClass and Spells and Skills shouldn't be mixed ever. Of course the Item Hotbar isn't extremely important but could be a Hotbar where you could put anything like Equipment for Swapping, Key Items and Scrolls and not just Common Consumables.

This is an Idea for Spell LVL Casting;: You could put a Toggle or Switchable Button to know what Spell Level you'll be casting instead of having Sliders and Tooltips for the whole damn thing. That way i only have to click on the Number if i want to cast Lower/Higher Level of the Same Spell.

Oh yeah and they should let you move the Hotbars to any place you want and not take any more Space than necessary. The Million Portraits also take too much Space on Screen while in Combat so i really hate those since they are also UGLY and BORING as HELL to look at.

It's also funny how they have all these Submenu Sliders and Windows Monstrosities but they can't get proper Inventory Management Buttons for Inventory Selection/Transfer. Cause you know Larian? I don't enjoy taking 3 years to do a quick swap/dump of my whole Inventory every single time? What about Shift Selection? What about a Send my Whole Dumpster to Camp Button?

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Is there anyone who has played D&D games before who are asking for the hotbar solution to remain? Or are they coming from MMO's and don't know of other kinds of UI's? Because for me it's a such a no-brainer that a hotbar just won't work when spell selections change all the time and the amount of possible spells is staggering compared to say DOS1&2. It wouldn't even work for spells only. But literally everything gets dumped there.

You have to constantly search for everything which is the biggest warning sign of a bad unintuitive UI. You can't tell your Misty Step spell from Amulet's or Boots' Misty Step ability. A glance gives you no information when a good UI would show which Long Rest / Short Rest abilities / Item abilities are still available at a glance.

Do they really know what they are asking for?

Last edited by 1varangian; 26/10/21 09:55 PM.
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