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Joined: Oct 2020
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Watched the panel from Hell....
saw the "weapon abilities" - Then played it a little bit. Its just soooo unnecessary. Look Larian, I get that you're coming from DOS and when you made wizards, druids and sorcerers for Baldurs Gate 3- they have all of these flashy abilities and you feel that fighters are lacking. But that's not the case. As they level up, they get extra attacks, superiority die, all sorts of stuff. And we're not even talking about multi-classing yet. Adding these weapon abilities (especially where a fighter can attack using an action and attack again using a bonus action) takes away the special abilities of the rogue, and helps to not differentiate between the martial classes at all. Please - again, stop doing this. You guys are going to inevitably make a DOS3, and this kind of thing belongs there. That game was built for exploits and a bit of imbalance. You guys said you were making a 5e game. So do that. Give us the branching story, atmosphere, even the dirt thing is kind of cool. But 5e rules have been balanced and the classes differentiated so that it matters. Stop doing things because "a class(fighter) doesn't have enough to do" - as they level up, they will. I think part of this is linked to your reluctance to limit long rests or make them more expensive to take (i know you guys have made some changes to it in patch 5). If you limit it more, you see that while magic users are strong, that the action economy will make them choose to use their more powerful spells when it really counts. (since they only have so many uses per long rest) in addition, limit who can use scrolls like 5e does. Then scrolls become more valuable, and magic users have those to use in lieu of using a spell slot. Then you would see that, while they have powerful options, it's balanced. Stop giving combat actions to bonus actions Larian, please (unless its the rogue, where it belongs). Everytime i think you guys are listening, you do something like this. Give yourselves less work - just stick to the rules and build the world and story...

Joined: Aug 2021
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I agree that limiting rests more will make martials feel better. The new weaponskills feel like giving spells to martials, and it feels a lot less like tabletop 5e.

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I support the new weapon stuff it's great just needs tweaking that is all.

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Weapon abilities are a good idea in theory. There's a reason lots of 5e fans think that all fighters should have battlemaster abilities. But (as I posted in the other thread about Rush Attack) all weapon actions should involve a tradeoff.

E.g., -5 to hit (or disadvantage) for those weapon abilities that deal damage and impose a status effect. Possibly a larger negative and/or the enemy gets a ST to negate the effect if the status effect is very powerful.

But yes, these things should be Actions, and not bonus actions. Don't mess with the action economy unless you really understand the system.

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Disagree, additional opportunities for martial classes are always welcome.
Otherwise it's quite boring to play, especially at low levels

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disagreed. But there's an easy solution. If they think martials are boring to play at low levels - start the characters at level 5. then martials have 2 attacks (which is what they're essentially doing anyway) and instead of the game having levels 1-10, it goes from 5-15.

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Originally Posted by Ghost214
disagreed. But there's an easy solution. If they think martials are boring to play at low levels - start the characters at level 5. then martials have 2 attacks (which is what they're essentially doing anyway) and instead of the game having levels 1-10, it goes from 5-15.

This solution has basically one huge disadvantage.
In fact, most build choices are made in the first 5 levels, meaning you would have to make them when creating your character.
It is also unfriendly to players unfamiliar with DnD.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 15/10/21 07:08 PM.
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A better solution would be just to start the characters at level 5 - then martials get multiattack and other stuff and the need to try to give them stuff before that ceases

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As Rhobar said, starting characters at level 5 would be overwhelming to a lot of players. Especially since - if you're playing singleplayer - you'll be controlling 4 characters, which combined is a lot of abilities to start the game with. Starting at level 1 allows you to grow into the characters' abilities.

I'm assuming hoping praying that Larian will improve the game's onboarding (nested tooltips were step in the right direction). But in it's current state, booting up BG3 as your first experience to D&D is difficult enough while starting from level 1.

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Im not sure that it would be overwhelming, BUT I'd rather that than what they're doing to actions and abilities. (and in turn, the balance and strengths of each class) I don't mind them starting at level 1 - as a D&d fan, I'm good with it. But if they're worried about martial classes having things to do - I think level 5 is a better solution. otherwise, level one eases everyone into everything - less actions and all.

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well thats what levels 1-4 are about. and probably (at least partially) why martials have less actions in the beginning. a counter to that would be to allow a respec option later down the line. (Pathfiner WOTR did this and it helped alot)

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Build choice? In D&D 5 there is no choice. You can choose your class that's it. You can not choose from a large pool of feats to build a uniqe class the sytem gives you what suitable for your class. So which chioice?

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Martials are not boring at low levels. They have meaningful choices about battlefield positioning even if they don't have a million activated abilities. If only Larian weren't actively working towards making positioning completely irrelevant by placing all fights on vast open battlefields without any choke points and giving everyone new ways to avoid AoO's or jump/teleport.

Larian's battlefields lack dynamics. Completely. Every battlefield is a huge open space with a lot of verticality even when indoors or the Underdark. When did you ever have a hallway fight in BG3 where your frontliners mattered? That's right you didn't. Not only do more closed spaces not exist, but even if they somehow did, the enemies would teleport or start throwing fire bombs and spitting poison pools at your back row, right over the frontliners. This is the only way Larian can do combat, unfortunately. No dynamics.

As the party Fighter I would feel important if I could hold down a damn doorway and actually protect my party. But Larian has me chasing after enemies who jump and teleport around everywhere. And a million gimmicky abilities from weapons aren't going to change that.

Last edited by 1varangian; 15/10/21 08:18 PM.
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I actually agree with you. it seems like Larian though, and al of of other posters haven't actually played much D&D and maybe aren't aware that there are still things to do at lower levels even with one action and therefore one attack

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Larian really can't help themselves can they? It's almost compulsive their endless fiddling and finding ways to embellish, undo or change things from a system with an established rule set; to put their OTT stamp on almost everything.

Are martial classes considered boring because they don't shoot fire out of their arses (in the same way Sven stated that players found the Bless spell boring and that players wanted fireworks everywhere)? I just don't get the need to give them all sorts of fancy homebrew abilities, especially at low levels. Where is the sense of progression if all the candy is handed out almost instantly and frequently?

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There is maybe to much dynamic in Larians battlefields. Teleporting and jumping feos areeverywhere. They should attack your party head-on and together this would be more realistic. This is one thing the Pathfinder games did a little bit better. But there is no verticality.

Joined: Feb 2020
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Definitely a NO for new bonus actions.
Definitely a YES to new weapons actions, but not the way they designed them. See the other thread.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=792971#Post792971

All those new status increased A LOT the complexity of a game that is already very complex to learn, especially for newcomers.

I find VERY COOL that some of these actions simulate things you could do in a tabletop session but it should only stick to that.
- I charge and attack him
- I use the pommel of my weapon, trying to stunned him
- I try to knock him down with my staff
- I'm foccused on his hands to make him drop his weapons, on his eyes to make him blind, on his feet to reduce his speed and so on...

I haven't try everything yet but first impressions :
- There should NOT have new conditions. We can easily imagine tons of actions with DnD's conditions or mechanics (reduce the speed) and eventually BG3's mechanic (in exemple drop weapons)
- It should be better balanced. In exemple the charge should definitely use your movement and not allow you to disengage. You can also charge through ennemies which looks really wierd.
- None of these weapons actions should be bonus actions. It should deserve it"s own thread but we DON'T need bonus actions at each turn, which is what everyone (AI included) is doing to optimize our turns - hello shove to disengage, something the AI teach me to do...
- Some things should just dissapear : you can try to stun someone with a blow to the head... You cannot try to make someone wearing an armor bleed using a special attack while using your sword... Are you going to bleed if you're slashed with a sword but not if you're pierced with it ?
- It shouldn't be so much different for all weapons. Honnestly I'd rather have the charge for all weapons + 1 specific attack per weapon than a whole bunch of attacks for every weapons. A bit more complexity and variety is absolutely fine but it's way too much imo.
- The special attacks were better where they were before on the UI. Adding them to the hotbar mess does not help at all. If we're definitely going with weapons special attacks they require a specific place OR specific locked slots on the hotbar.
- We should be able to use them whenever we want. If it's well balanced you don't need to make them "one per rest".

Last edited by Maximuuus; 15/10/21 09:22 PM.
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+1 to OP ...
-1000 To everything else Autor said in this topic. :-/

I like the attacks ...
Personaly i believe that single special attack per weapon, once per turn OR anytime you want with disadvantage (and it dont really matter if that will be litteraly "disadvantage" or "-5" kind of disadvantage ... second one it probably better tho) ... just as it was originaly was kinda cool, and totally okey for me.

This, feels a little overwhelming. :-/
And i dont even like most of those things ...

And i dont even want to see what will happen when people who are right now celebrating "geting rid of stupid high ground advantage" will do, when they find out that with certain weapons you can "give up your movenent (wich i didnt even used much in the past with sniper-like Rogues) to get advantage (and +2 from high ground) for your next shot". laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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I think the new attacks are cool and add variety, but agree that they should be Actions, if anything, not Bonus Actions.

Also, Shove as a Bonus Action should come with the Shield Master feat and not given to everybody... Shove is an Action.

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The enemy attacking your party head-on would be more realistic? No, absolutely not. I just like the way the foes teleporting and jumping just to find a good position. The key point of the combat in BG3 is you need to find a better position than your enemies, as well as using different spell just to deal with the enemies which is much more dangerous to you party, with higher priority. This is also the key point of the turn-based game. If the enemy always attacking the warrior and ignore your wizard with only 1 HP - this is not what you call realistic, this is stupid.

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