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Joined: Oct 2020
apprentice
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Chose the white dragon (ew) for my sorcerer playthrough because I wanted Armor of Agathys to help me play as a gish. This spell, like many of the other origin spells, are supposed to scale with the character level when using higher level spell slots. Without being able to upcast these spells, they're going to be next to useless in the long run.

If we're using our spell slots to cast these origin spells, rather than having a free cast per day, then we should be able to use higher level spell slots.

I'm hoping this is an oversight rather than intentional design.

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yes, this needs to happen

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Anyone know how this is supposed to work in 5e?

I was considering the same character, but will wait until this is resolved I guess :-(

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Originally Posted by NinthPlane
Anyone know how this is supposed to work in 5e?

I was considering the same character, but will wait until this is resolved I guess :-(

PHB sorcerers do not have origin-based spells, but its largely agreed (even by wizards of the coast) that sorcerers should get origin based spells, as that is now being included with new sorcerer subclasses.
they just function as sorcerer spellls, and can be upcast normally.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Artorius
If we're using our spell slots to cast these origin spells, rather than having a free cast per day, then we should be able to use higher level spell slots.

I'm hoping this is an oversight rather than intentional design.

Yup. Agreed.


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Originally Posted by NinthPlane
Anyone know how this is supposed to work in 5e?

Basically, the 5e rule falls back to the general rules for spellcasting, because it is not ruled on specifically to be otherwise.

What this means is that if you know the spell, you know the spell. Spells you know can be cast with any spell slot equal to or higher than the base level of the spell, and some spells grow stronger or gain extra benefits when cast using a higher slot. That's it.

So, yes - We know these spells, and by definition we should be able to use any appropriate spell slot to cast or up-cast them.

This is true of any spell that you know, from any source, unless it is specifically ruled otherwise (There are some cases where the feature that grants the spell specifically says it can only be cast at its base level, for example. If it doesn't say that, then it's not the case).

Even in the case of feats and features which grant you spell, and use the language "You know the [Spell] spell, and can cast it once at its base level without expending a spell slot. You must complete a long rest before you can cast the spell using this feature again." They use that language very specifically - it's not lazy or pointlessly long-winded, but rather it is specifically noting that you know the spell. You can cast it for free using the feature, sure.... but you know the spell, and thereby you can also use your slots to cast it if you want to.


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