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#794142 18/10/21 01:48 PM
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The pushing/showing is a great addition bubt its way to much when its becoming one of the most deadly moves you can do in the game, ii have goblings oneshotting my characters by pushing them over cliffs and vise versa, it dosnet make any sense that an opponent can just go barehanded into a fight and push you around like this , i can understand if larger foes or super strong ones can push you even a meter or 2 back, or if someone sneaks up on you and push you off balance but right now its ridicilous how your pushed into teh aor and like 5-10meters away its wayy to unbalanced and frankly stupid, its like everyone running around with the thunderwave spell ready at hand,a nd why is it considered a bonus action and not a action?

Last edited by Ormgaard; 18/10/21 02:50 PM.
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The issue isn't really that you can push people, that is completely intended in D&D. It is how far. The shove action (bonus action in BG3) normally only pushes a character 5ft. It is contested athletics vs athletics or acrobatics (defender choice) check. I am not sure exactly how the game handles the contest. I think it may be using strength always which is not correct and makes many characters terrible at defending against it.

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The main thing is that BG3 is a grown up RPG with mature, even dark themes. So why is combat a silly and cartoony pushing and shoving meme fest? It's Iike the writing team and the gameplay design team are making different games.

The distance buff + bonus action + verticality everywhere is way too much for Shoving.

The first two should definitely be axed because of the third.

I do like it that strength vs. weight is a factor with distance, but it's just too much. Shoving someone into an instant death should be hard instead of a trivial bonus move with 50%+ success rate. It should often require more than one Shove (or teamwork) so that the target gets a chance to react and move away from the ledge. There's no struggle. It's just one person casually slapping someone off a ledge to an instant death in a cartoony exaggerated arc.

It's also pretty dumb when someone falls into a bottomless pit but then their body teleports to camp for a cheap res.

Last edited by 1varangian; 21/10/21 06:57 AM.
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I have to agree it does look silly as well, same with the funny arrc on bowshots looks like something from a cartoon:/
And yes its exactlyy the distance thats the problem smile

Last edited by Ormgaard; 18/10/21 10:40 PM.
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Agreed. Here's my breakdown of the biggest problems with Shove as it is, in Patch 6, and my proposals to solve it.


Problem 1: it's a 100% no brainer move to use for 80% of characters in melee. It's so cheap action-wise that you should almost always use it - and that's a problem. Even ignoring the chance of success and high lethality, the zero opportunity means it's just a thing to do, as opposed to a strategic choice the player makes.

Fix: make it a attack (note, not a full action) per PnP. This means martials with Extra attack will eventually be actually be able to shove multiple times with 1 action (trading an attack each time). The reason why I like this more than the full action is it lets Shove scale with martials better (so it doesn't become irrelevant, see Fix #2 and 3), but nerf it in the earlier levels when it can have most impact.


Problem 2: Stealth interactions with Shove is broken. This one is straight forward. Stealth/Invisible + Shove should not make shove a 100% success, especially with how easy it is to abuse.

Fix: remove or nerf stealth to shove bonus.


Problem 3: It's currently too lethal on success due to an incomplete system implementation. Larian's already taken a right step in terms of reducing the chance of shove success, but because of #1 and #2, it still dominates the game.

Fix: Implemented a proper reaction system + proper Feather Fall, where it's a reaction (to falling). Lastly, cap fall damage to 10d6 per the rules. This gives more counter-play to shoving (for the player and AI), and also ensures people with the right skills and beefy characters can't just be outright killed by fall damage.

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Yeah, I just did gobbo leader fight, and push was the cancer. Yes, it's really cool that one can push enemies (and be pushed) into spider pit, but it's just riddiculus. I even pushed on gobbo all the way from stairs, which is quite a long way from the edge. Push, and unavoidable 20 damage granades.

While I do think push should be main action, I don't think I would mind it as a bonus one, if it wasn't as OP. Have enemies be pushed just far enough so they break engagement. If the are really close to the edge, so be it - let them fly to their deaths. As it is now, if there is a ledge nearby, push feels like desintegration that you can cast every turn as a bonus action. And don't get me started on items and abilities that can send an enemy flying without even being close to them (stupid arrows of magical pushing).

Topgoon #794431 19/10/21 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Topgoon
Fix: make it a attack (note, not a full action) per PnP.

Unless I remember it wrong, I think multiple attacks is probably going to be implemented as having multiple full actions. I'm basing this mostly on how Haste worked when I last used it (Patch 3, I think). Of course, they might decide to change that framework when they get to implementing level 5 but who knows.

Last edited by Dexai; 19/10/21 07:02 AM.

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Topgoon #794686 19/10/21 08:01 PM
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Well,

you broke it down a lot. You are not wrong but the main issue with the shove we have now is that it is no shove. Even when we are playing a fantasy game we need basic physics to work. NO matter how strong you are, if you are missing the weight to properly counter the weight of what you want to shove, it won't work.

go try to shove a car sideways. It will not move. No matter how strong you are. You will just push yourself away. if you say now you can do it when you brace yourself THINK what bracing yourself means in the formula. bracing agains something that is either immovable or WAY heavier then that car.

May be a little overcomplicated explanation but this "THROVING" needs to end.

Please larian do us all a favor and make a "shove you colleague" day and implement what you expirience.

what we have now can happen when an ogre shoves a halfling. Today a goblin "shoved" my FULLY ARMORED dwarf UPSTAIRS into a spiderpit.

I use shove on my dwarves now because they move farther that way. smirk

Last edited by UnknownEvil; 19/10/21 08:02 PM.
Topgoon #795027 21/10/21 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Topgoon
Agreed. Here's my breakdown of the biggest problems with Shove as it is, in Patch 6, and my proposals to solve it.


Problem 1: it's a 100% no brainer move to use for 80% of characters in melee. It's so cheap action-wise that you should almost always use it - and that's a problem. Even ignoring the chance of success and high lethality, the zero opportunity means it's just a thing to do, as opposed to a strategic choice the player makes.

Fix: make it a attack (note, not a full action) per PnP. This means martials with Extra attack will eventually be actually be able to shove multiple times with 1 action (trading an attack each time). The reason why I like this more than the full action is it lets Shove scale with martials better (so it doesn't become irrelevant, see Fix #2 and 3), but nerf it in the earlier levels when it can have most impact.


Problem 2: Stealth interactions with Shove is broken. This one is straight forward. Stealth/Invisible + Shove should not make shove a 100% success, especially with how easy it is to abuse.

Fix: remove or nerf stealth to shove bonus.


Problem 3: It's currently too lethal on success due to an incomplete system implementation. Larian's already taken a right step in terms of reducing the chance of shove success, but because of #1 and #2, it still dominates the game.

Fix: Implemented a proper reaction system + proper Feather Fall, where it's a reaction (to falling). Lastly, cap fall damage to 10d6 per the rules. This gives more counter-play to shoving (for the player and AI), and also ensures people with the right skills and beefy characters can't just be outright killed by fall damage.

Couple of minor clarifications:
1. Shove is an attack in the PHB not an action so that wouldn't even be changing anything.
2. The maximum fall damage is 20d6, not 10d6.

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If they keep it that way, they seriously need to have modifiers to who ist shoving whom or what.

If a halfling suceeds shoving an ogre, he should fall down max. Other way around a little flying would be ok. I mentioned a little awkwardly above, but the physic part about relation from size/weight and strenght needs to be changed. Even if they make it a full action.

And i hope they change jumping too. Having dwarves in full armor jump around the battlefield like frogs is really cringey.


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